LEM:

You posted while I was posting.

And I just sat here dumbfounded by your post.

About this:


For a divorcee to say that, well, OK. Or, maybe, you need to expand your circle of people you know.



Then Take it elsewhere....




That's kind of harsh, considering later you state that "you only have control over YOU."



ENOUGH SAID!



Yes, they are timetables. How many jokes have you heard about "the doctor says you have XXX months to live" But you would NEVER Tell a patient that they could survive for the rest of thier life with this condition, if in fact you KNEW it was only six months. Two years is a goal. Something to work towards. Two years for Plan A/B after D day in a ten year marriage would be reasonable to me. For some it should be longer or shorter. And Dr Harley has empirical and daily evidence to support this number that you have never seen. Just like you have empirical evidence to support your clinical training in your medical decisions.



That may be all you should have posted. You can take the other stuff to a new thread.

Really.

You take the contrarian view around here. So can I. We approach it from the outside, considering our different circumstances.

But you missed it this time.

LG

Plan BR worked really well...NOT....

Plan BR resulted in my desperate phone call to a suicide hotline - for myself.

What I wish LS could see...is that tremendous power comes from allowing God to run the agenda.

Successfully recovered here for 4 years and in support of LilSis's decision. Guess this means I'm cheering on harmful behavior?

I do agree on the kids not being present at such a discussion. They shouldn't have been put through that.

Well, really, Plan B does absolutely no harm to Sis, not really. It only hurts when you don't let go, and move forward in your own recovery. If she isn't in Plan B, well, she gets to see her WH a lot more, sure. She gets to go back to doing the things she used to, sure. How does that help HER? It doesn't.

Part of the reason I am an advocate of Plan B is that I was learning so much about myself, my habits, my bad habits, my narrow view was challenged. It became a relief to have people be completely honest with me here, and help to show me where I was trying to EXERT some control. Also, I don't think it would have been good for me to see my WH do what he was doing, and to allow myself to continually be drawn into some sort of twisted R. Things were bad enough, I didnt' need to perpetuate the triangle.

I would much rather be alone and on my own than to give my blessings to that [email]cr@p[/email], and that is what Plan B did for me.

Sis will have to ask herself what leaving Plan B will really afford her that she can't have or even have better while in it?

Sis, you can give up on your husband if you want, that is your decision, but Plan B is for you, not for him. I totally get where you are coming from. I had those conversations not long ago with PWC. I remember how they feel, so final, so real, especially in the days following. Give yourself a little time to get past the raw emotion and back to reality, then make choices. Don't claim you're done until you are absolutely sure.

There is a lot in what Lilsis posted that leads me to believe he is not sure of his path. And that he could be influenced to do the right thing.

Its very very hard to "read" him without the body language and nuances of speech....but I truly believe he can be reached. We need Lilsis to expand on this conversation.

Lilsis, I'm concerned about your beliefs. You were waiting for him to have an epiphany? That you somehow didn't think he knew he was wrong? And that all it would take is some wake-up call? Lilsis. He has always known that what he was doing was wrong. Where did you get the idea he didn't?
He is struggling with it. He always has.

He simply doesn't believe you can make the marriage a better choice than the affair. He thinks he's done too much damage. He thinks he won't be forgiven. He's afraid to give up RT.

Steve Harley can reach him.

Oh, Sis, saw your post, hang in there girl, hang in there. Take some time, get past these next few days. Letting go will do you a world of good. It doesn't always feel better, but it IS better. I wanted to reassure you that I have had those conversations, Sis, even down to finding a way to get ME to SEE the light (that he was gone, and so on).

I tried over and over to "move on".

I wasn't going to just sit around letting my life happen, no way.

I filed for divorce - convincing myself it was OVER, I had to MOVE ON, it was time to LET GO. I had friends who cheered me on .... "Dump that Zero, get yourself a HERO" they cried...

They loved me, cared about me, didn't want me to hurt anymore....and their advice could NOT have een more wrong.

I forced, and forced, and forced and nearly killed myself trying to impose self will on my life.

When I let go, stopped trying to force myself and everyone else to be where I thought I should be...

I found myself where I needed to be.

It was not what I did by filing for divorce that was wrong. It was what was in my heart, mind and soul - it was my motivations that were wrong.

The second time I filed for divorce - I did with a Plan Other Than My Own, under Steve's guidance.

Oh my god what a difference in outcomes from the same action with differing motivations!

Like marital success, personal power is not found by following our instincts.

Lilsis --
Call his bluff. He offered. Just accept.
Tell him you have reconsidered his offer of talking through this with someone.
Tell him you would like him to agree to 3 (or 4 or 5) phone calls.
It doesn't matter if he's sceptical, because he's not doing it to "fix" anything -- he's doing it to "help you get over it."
The fact that it is over the phone should make it less threatening for him.

You don't want anyone else -- you want Steve. He will reach your WH. He is that good.

LG,

This is precisely why my FWH talked to SH. To HELP ME, not him, accept the divorce and adjust. He made it clear that was the only reason he was willing to talk to someone.

That's also part of the reason Bug's H talked to SH too isn't it?

That's the WH reaching out for help b/c they don't know their way back home. They feel they are in too deep, there is no possible way out.

And, I think this is ridiculous once again that we are on here debating about whether Sis's actions were right or wrong. Bottom line, they were her actions, her choices, she made them. There's no turning back now.

We can try to help her pick up and move on from here (whether that's back to plan B, talking with SH, etc.) and that's all we can do.

2 X 4's are fine, but the endless debate is exhausting...

I've never counseled with SH before, but I have heard over and over again how good he is at this stuff, even at convincing a WS to give this or that a try.

My only fear with doing this right now, is that Sis may lose this place as a refuge when her WH finds out about it. That could be disastrous for HER. I think you need to be sure that your WH at least wants to try for recovery before doing this, and he is not there.

I haven't read the whole thread...just parts...like when you broke plan B...

I still don't see what would be so wrong about dropping off a copy of SAA to your MIL house...that he just might pick up and read....maybe highlight some...maybe not...maybe bookmark a particular area.

Maybe if he got the idea that a WS can dig themselves out of the mess they've made and make it all right again....he'd feel like he'd have permission to do that...at this point he probably feels obligated to follow through with his whole plan with OW. He probably doesn't think it possible to undo the direction he's been going. Maybe he doesn't want to stop and rethink this...but maybe he does...

It took my H much longer than one year to get his main OW out of his life...we're talkin closer to 4...on and off..before he was finally done with her.

Sis,

Have you flat out asked your H to counsel over the phone? If not then don't make DJ's by assuming what his answer will be.

I thought the same, but I asked my H anyway. He said yes. Under the premise that it was to help me adjust to a divorce. He talked to him for well over an hour.

I believe Bugs WH also did the same recently.

Don't ever underestimate what a WH will do, especially if they are wanting to find a way back home.

I think Lexxy's idea to have your WS counsel with SH a few times would be great. Before MB and during my H's A I suggested he talk to a counselor just to sort things out in his mind about the decisions he was making etc..

Maybe it could be suggested that he do this to help you...whatever...he may not agree...but then maybe he would...he does want to be able to look himself in the mirror and be ok with who he sees after all this is done...it is the least he could do.

Sis:

For your own PERSONAL RECOVERY, I PRAY that you listen to BR about giving up that ILLUSION OF CONTROL...

That's the MAIN THING I wish for YOU today..

Very much encourage you to listen to Mimi and BR.


In Plan A - you try to help the WS get it. You're done now. No more games or schemes. Back in Plan B. He either gets it himself or not. Turn it over to God.


It was a mistake and a mistake I very likely would have made myself. I scheme WAY too much for my own good. If you feel relief today...good for you. I believe you will likely look back and KNOW it was a mistake someday IF you end up saving your marriage. If not, and it helped you move on...more power to ya!. Just don't do it again. Closure never really is closure...just a step in the journey.

Praying for you and those boys.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I'd say there have been situations, like MywifeIlove, where the possibility of going back into Plan A exist. Where someone like Lil'sis jumps on WH's suggestion to "counsel", even if only "divorce counseling" to interupt and cause turmoil in the affair and maybe plant seeds for reconciliation. Think how RT would react to ANY counseling that WH went to. That's all fine and dandy for someone else....NOT lilsis. She did a STELLAR and long Plan A already. No end to Plan B until WH REALLY comes to her seeking reconciliation pursuant to the Plan B letter. My opinion.

I think a few sessions with Steve would open WH's eyes to reconciliation. I think he's paralyzed right now.
Obviously knows what he is doing is wrong, but has no idea how to stop it.

Steve Harley can make the right path extremely clear.
Lilsis can participate or not participate. But after the agreed upon sessions are done, back to Plan B. (and Plan B between sessions also...)

Steve will tell her what to do after he's counseled WH a few times. Lets put her back in the hands of the PRO's here people.....

Thanks for clarifying your position...So, do you plan on going back to a dark Plan B now? That part was not very clear from your last post. I am wondering if you have considered counseling with Steve again in regards to giving an update on your sitch and all that has transpired. Sometimes his advice can differ from what is suggested here...

Well . . yeah . . . The Turd would blow a gasket.

Why would that be a bad thing??
Mulan>doesn't understand

Its always bothered me when I read where we view the OW as "winning", as tho its a competition or about her.

During the stage when my husband refused to leave, I recall the OW in my sitch telling him via voice page that "she was the Better Woman" and that "God wouldn't give him his future until he accepted it", meaning with her.

That OP competition perception or mindset implies that if the marriage isn't recovered but ends in divorce, then the BS are, by default, losers. And for me, it says my ex-H's OW (now wife) is indeed a "Better Woman".

Of course I don't believe that of anyone's situation, including my own. And I can't change people's minds about their view of who WINS what. But I thought it important to remind folks that if they believe this is a competition and there is a a WINNER, then that says there has to be a LOSER on the other end.

Please keep this in mind the next time you decide someone wins something when trying to recover their marriage.

Jo

________________

i was thinking the same thing......i think i understand where you were coming from when you broke your plan B....what are your intentions now?