I mean this in a nice way and hope it comes across that way. You (and others) keep referencing how he has to face the realities and "ugly" of his decisions. No - he doesn't. I think it would be more healthy for you not to be concerned about his soul or feelings or coping mechanisms. They really aren't yours to be concerned with. This "he has to face his demons/problems/ugly/etc.." is not true IMO. He may not feel he has done some terrible thing or wrong - maybe he feels better/happier. While you may feel he does, if he doesn't then there is nothing for him to face or understand or compensate for. If you are waiting and wanting for "the other shoe to drop" where he crashes with guilt and remorse - you very well may wait forever. It will delay you moving on with your life. I get a feeling that you are looking for some light bulb moment from him that will then make you feel vindicated and your anger justified - and then you can say "ah-hah ! - see ? you didn't realize how good you had it with me and now you can just live with your concious". Him dealing with his decisions and life should have nothing to do with you re-building and moving on with yours and I implore you to not be looking to/at him and his life as a factor of how yours is.

Please do your best to deal with just you and the boys. How he handles his life or how he feels has nothing to do with you and he'll have the relationship with his boys that he is comfortable with and/or wants - which has nothing to do with how/what you think that should be.


For what it's worth - I have never felt remorse or sadness or "ugly" for leaving my wife. I did not have an affair though and that could make a difference. But it might not also. I left and feel my life improved just about immediatly after and have been glad I did since day one and now it's more than 7 years later. She is still bitter/mad. I ignore her and avoid her as much as possible and laugh about her "view" of my life more than anything else. I'm much happier now - why should I feel bad/ugly or remorse ?

Notashoped,

When I was a BS it was a coping mechanism for me to feel that my ex-WH was in great pain and that he just didn't realize the damage he was doing to his family.I did believe that the guilt would eat him alive and that he'd come crawling back. It was impossible for me to imagine that he could deliberately choose to betray me, leave his family and never return. The pain was too great to think in those terms. I still don't know if he ever truly will "get it", interms of the damage that was done. It doesn't matter to me now whether he gets it or not because I am happily remarried and reconcilliation is not an option. I have forgiven him and moved on.
Some people feel remorse and own up to their actions and others feel justified for their actions and never feel the need to address it. It really depends on the person. Even if Lil Sis' WH feels the pain and does not address his issues it really won't matter. Only if his pain is so great that he chooses to end his A for life and commit to working on his issues and the marriage, nothing else really matters.
Unfortunately, some people (Some Wayward Spouses) live in "denialville" and choose to stay there for a lifetime. All Sis can do is work on herself and make a good life for her and the boys. WH really is in God's hands.

It didn't.

This whole paragraph had me shaking my head. It sounds so callous and uncaring for the person that you left behind, regardless of HOW you left. Sounds full of justification for ending a M without so much as a hand lifted to fix your issues.

I can't speak for Sis, I just don't understand what the point of this post was.

This has to be one of the most cold-blooded posts I have ever seen here at MB (and that's saying a lot.)

Care to share with us why you *did* leave your wife?
Mulan

Quote:

For what it's worth - I have never felt remorse or sadness or "ugly" for leaving my wife. I did not have an affair though and that could make a difference. But it might not also. I left and feel my life improved just about immediatly after and have been glad I did since day one and now it's more than 7 years later. She is still bitter/mad. I ignore her and avoid her as much as possible and laugh about her "view" of my life more than anything else. I'm much happier now - why should I feel bad/ugly or remorse ?

Could you please grab a sharpie...go to a mirror..and write "freeloader" on your forehead for posterity?

Now I can answer your question.

You know what? I felt the SAME way...when I was a teenager ditching a date that had lost my interest...but as an adult I distinguish between a dating relationshipo and a marriage.

It is not possible to pull out of a marriage so easily unless you were never invested in the first place...pulling apart your LIFE and your childrens lives for any reason other than necessity [ abuse or addictyion or something like that in which staying is less healthy than leaving] IS a mistake and it IS ugly and selfish and it IS something that most people regret.

Unless they are freeloaders.

Freeloaders don't care what it costs other people...they don't care if they break their promises...they don't care if they have taken something that can't be replaced.

So more accurately...it isn't that freeloaders don't experience ugliness in dealing unethically with people...it's that their whole lives are ugly and they can't tell the difference.

I'm not sure of notashoped's motivation, so I will assume it was intended to be helpful, as he indicated.

His point that WH's feelings and coping mechanisms are not mine to be concerned about...this is correct. However, I don't feel that doing so necessarily hinders my personal growth. As a matter of fact, seeing WH as a flawed human being is probably more heathly than thinking of him as a monster. robertswife explained it far better than I could.

I think I have acknowledged that he may NEVER crash; that he is stubborn enough that I see that as a possibility. Is this my problem? No. Does it make me sad? Yes....because I know that he is destined for a life half-lived if he continues on this course.

A person who has inflicted the pain that WH has, who has lied and betrayed, left his children, cast aside his morals and integrity....and is not repentant cannot live a full life or enter into a true relationship with God. He can live in denial, but that's not living a full life.

We shared a life together, we have children together. Part of me will always care for him. I do not wish him to live in that sorry, sad place forever.

This is just my personal belief.

The fact that you were able to move on happily, NAH, sounds like it has worked well for you. But you were not in an affair...and your marriage was not MY marriage.

TJ: I'd rather he just went away.

Perhaps because a properly realised adult will feel a range of emotions on ending a marriage? Even if the marriage was
abusive and rightly abandoned, a whole person will feel sadness, frustration and dismay at having been unable to fulfil their marital vow, along with any sense of relief. Perhaps because compassion is felt for the person who's 'bitter/mad'?

Being aware of only the relief is a sad thing, because it means you are an emotionally limited person. The painful emotions are not pleasant, but the ability to experience them allows us to appreciate and draw nourishment from an ever-broader spectrum of life.

TA

Good morning, Sis. Hope you have a great day!

Hey, SL. Trying.

Couple of triggers today. As the boys and I were taking D out for a walk and heading for the park, WH's co-worker drives around the corner, pulls up and rolls down the window. "So, how are you guys doing..." he starts chatting up the boys. A few weeks ago he (who's married with kids) had WH and the boys out to go sailing.

I'm just standing there, looking around.

"How are you, LS?" (strained)
"I'm doing okay, B. How are you?" (also strained)
"Meh. Wish I wasn't working."
I nod but say nothing. He says good-bye to the boys and drives off. He had obviously been around the corner at the coffee shop...the only place he could have been coming from the way the neighborhood is configured. He hangs out there, too. I have this image of he and WH yucking it up over a cup of coffee while RT pours. I feel sort of ill.

So the boys and I go on the walk, and as we are coming back (this was almost two hours later as we did a lot of exploring), this time there are two cop cars in front of the coffee shop. Lunch time!

Now the image is of B and WH yucking it up over sandwiches with RT serving, probably talking about what at b!tch I am.

I know, everyone...this is all assuming...I'm just telling you what pops into my head....and let's face it, it can't be too far off the mark.

Anyway, it's them and NOT ME, so the boys and I head home to make our own lunch of leftover pizza.

(You know, do they EVER think about the fact that THE BOYS can see it as well as I can? It's one thing to flaunt it in my face, but to rub your childrens' faces in it as well? Even if the kids could care less, does it occur to him that they probably don't like seeing me hurt? Stupid question, I know....)

Then later, when the boys and are outside having our ice cream, two cop cars go by...must have been on a call nearby. These days, I RARELY see a cop car in the neighborhood....wonder why.

It was just one of those days where I feel like jumping out of my skin and running, screaming in some other direction....get me outta here!!!

Which makes me angry, because I have every right to be here. This is MY home, MY children's home, MY town where *I* work, *I* have nothing to be ashamed of, *I* should be able to walk to the park and go to the market without feeling emotionally assaulted or fearing emotional assault.

I'm getting better at it, truly....today was just one of those days...and I successfully brushed off the run/screaming feeling...and was just left with the residual "well, that just sucks" feeling. It's totally PMS.

So I had some chocolate, said screw the lunch dishes, told the kids they could play xbox, and went outside to read a book in the sun.

It's so much easier to get over those triggers when I am NOT ALONE; when one of my "advocates" is in the vicinity. Someone who will see the cop cars at the coffee shop and say, "what an a$$" with absolute conviction.

So I'm reminded that I'm okay...that just because the three of them are in there yucking it up, and I'm outside, alone...that I'm okay and it's WH's loss. That even if they THINK they are okay, that B thinks they are okay, that they are justified, that their relationship is "special,".....it doesn't matter because that just isn't true.

It's wrong and it's twisted and I just shouldn't give it another thought.

Sis, aren't you glad you are sitting in the beautiful sunshine instead of mucking about in the rat turds?

*you* are in the better place.

LilSis:

How about:

"How are you, LS?" (strained)
LS: Brightly: "I'm doing REALLY WELL!, Thanks for taking the boys out on the Boat! They enjoyed that.
I've got a full day with the boys planned, How about you?

B: Unuh, Well, that's Great!, See ya!

Later at the Coffee Shop, are they yucking it up because you seem happy or because you seem miserable?

Because you seem miserable.

And you don't have to be.

But if you project that you seem to be doing well, all the rest of your assumptions fall away.

Enjoy the book. Enjoy the sunshine.

Better than hanging out in a coffee shop stool.


LS:

It might be time to consider selling/moving out of the house.

I know it's your home. And WH shouldn't force you out. But the level of triggers may never subside at your current location to allow you to ever live there peacefully.

All you wanted to do was walk down to the park.

And look what happened.

Those triggers will subside. Your life will return to some sort of normalcy. Something to consider. Another location may speed the process.

BTW: The "boys" realized NONE of the things you imagined today. Seeing the police cars may have resulted in them wondering about thier father, nothing more than that. 11 and 9 year old boys are lost in thier own little world. And unless confronted directly with it, do not put much thought into it. IN the past, you have walked to the park with the boys many times, and waved at the police cars and said hello to the officers. The boys experienced nothing much beyond that.

This is WH's choice to do this. Leave it with him. LIVE your life.

Sorry about all the triggers today. I'm sure all you WANTED to do is enjoy the nice day with your boys.

LG

LG: I thought of that...later. At the time, all I could think was, "You chump. I have NO respect for you, Mr. Catholic School Dad/football coach who hangs out with adulterers who destroyed two families." And I am no good at faking the Suzy Sunshine. It would have come out dripping in sarcasm, which would probably be worse than the cold restraint.

Let them think I am miserable. I really don't care, and I am not going to fake being nice just to give them something to talk about. I am what I am, and they can think whatever they want. If my "misery" gives them satisfaction, then it says more about them than me.

And about moving...this has been brought up before, and there are several reason that I'm not going to do it. First, the kid are totally, completely opposed to moving. DS11 cried when I brought it up. They have had enough upheaval in their lives to even raise it right now. Second, if I sell, I will have to pay out WH's equity. If I stay, I won't owe him a dime until DS9 graduates from high school. Third, I have a rock bottom interest rate and a low house payment that will pay off the house in less than 10 years. Finally, the idea of letting WH run me out of my own home gets my Irish up. And I do feel like it is MY home.

And honestly, I don't think I can take the stress of a move.

So instead, I'll have to deal with these triggers...and you are right...they are EVERYWHERE. But I've lived with them for the past year, and I'll continue to do so. In time, the triggers won't feel so triggery anymore, the pain will be a memory, I'll still have my house, and I'll be standing tall.

If I left, it would be because of WH. If I stay, it would be for me and the boys. I gotta stay....which means I gotta push through the triggers.

(so long as I can come here and vent)

PS: the boys know full well that RT works there. It's no secret. WH brought them there for breakfast just before d-day...."Look, isn't it cool that Mrs. RT works here! She gets to serve us breakfast!" So don't be so quick to let WH off the hook for that...he frequents (and I mean FREQUENTS!) that place without regard for how it impacts either me OR his sons.

When we go by and there are two cop cars out front, they KNOW one of them is their dad, and they KNOW RT works there. If it walks like a rat and smells like a rat, they are smart enough to know it's a rat....no one has to spell it out for them. I just wish there were a way to the park that didn't involve going past there, for my sake and theirs.

ANYHOO. It was a beautiful afternoon in the sun with my book and I have a new crop of tomatoes. Yum!

Sis, they can laugh all they want (and they're probably not doing that, of course), but WH knows what he did. And WH's friend knows what he did. And WH knows that WH's friend knows what he did. On some level, that is eating at him. If it isn't, then he's not someone that deserves to be anywhere near you.

He can't win. However. Thinking about it in terms of wins and losses is not helpful. Speculating about whether he is happy or not is not very plan B.

Triggers suck.

Enjoy the sunshine!

(((Sis)))

Feeling a little triggery today. Anxious. I dropped the boys off at WH/ILs on my way in to work; they will return home on Sunday evening. I have to work tomorrow, so this all works out fine logistically….it’s just….I don’t know.

Maybe that I feel as if I’ve seen the boys so little lately; first gone to the cottage, then Mon/tue with WH, now the weekend. I feel disconnected; like some recurring character rather than a “regular” in the storybook of their lives. Watching them walk up the driveway to the ILs…where I am no longer welcome…to spend a weekend in which I have no idea what they will do…with a man I no longer recognize.

The What Is vs. What Should Be fire has reignited. Wonder which side will win….sigh.

I also made the mistake of letting my mind go down the “why did this have to happen” road. Big mistake, because it is a road to he11. I consciously answer the question to myself, “There is no reason. He chooses this because of something that is upside down in him; his addiction, his pain, his unwillingness to look at himself.” Repeat. Repeat again. Do not own his problem or his choices. You are not that powerful.

I think I just tire of sending the kids off like they are so much dry cleaning to be dropped off and picked up at a later time, and not sure what happens to it while it’s there.

A family built on love, commitment and mutual respect has become a business transaction with the kids as the commodity. Certainly not a “Should Be,” but it “Is” anyway.

So I’m going to let that go and try to make the most of my weekend that IS, right now…stop trying to fight that fire.

Please just tell me that it will eventually burn itself out, or at the very least it will move along to another area, and my little universe can begin to reclaim itself, and “what is” can begin to bloom and become beautiful again.

A little reassurance would be appreciated.

I left my wife because she was unstable and demanding/controlling/selfish and I felt the kids and I deserved better. I should be more accurate - I didn't leave my wife. After another episode and her cleaning out the bank account again so she'd have the money, I told her to get out and never come back. High and mighty her did - I think thinking that I'd change my mind and beg her to come back. Nope.

I filed for divorce and fought for custody - and won. She hoped from boyfriend to boyfriend - even getting pregnant by one which I found out about by getting an insurance notice in the mail because she used my name (no way was I the father) to use my insurance. At first she was mad about me having the gall to divorce her and then she became angry and bitter as with financial responsibility I improved our lives. Now she is mad because she feels she should be sharing in that. She is supposed to be paying me child support. Think she does ? Nope. She regularly says I shouldn't have divorced her. She feels it's not her fault we ended up divorced so she shouldn't have to pay CS. Well - that's her opinion - mine is I should have and I'm glad I did. I don't need the money so I ignore it and her as much as I'm able.

While divorce is a shame and sad - IMO it is for the best sometimes. Even for the kids involved. Some people are relieved/glad to get divorced. Maybe some feel that is wrong but it is a fact. Like dumping a bad investment once the losses become unacceptable, dumping a marriage instead of living a life of disappointment and unhappiness is not wrong IMO. The freeloader comment was funny. I wasn't and am not a freeloader - my Ex was.

LilSis is lucky. She's going to have an Ex that wants to be part of his kids lives. He is and is going to continue to pay support. He isn't insisting to get his equity now forcing the sale of the house. She has a career and will be able to support herself. She has more than many - and I'd say most - divorcing/divorced women with kids have. I was just trying to inject the idea that she should be counting her blessings and making plans, and do all she can to not spend time anayzing her STBX life, soul, etc... Focus on her and the kids - not her soon to be Ex husband. Control what she can - not what she can't. It's rather presumptuous to assume he can't and won't be happy and have a fullfilling life.

SDguy wants to perpetuate the pity party and anger and rightousness ? Fine. IMO that is not the path to recovery.

I thought the same things about moving, once I got my brain screwed back on straight. I didn't want to tear my son's life up any more than had already been done. I KNEW that *I* would be okay again, someday, and my life would go on, despite the A's and even D (if it happened), but I only got one chance at protecting that kid. And, yeah, my IRE rose up when I thought about losing MY home, OUR home.

I didn't have NEARLY as many visual triggers as you do, though.

(((Sis)))

Bad timing there....

The kids are growing Lilsis. You'll be seeing them less and less the rest of their life ! It's OK - it's natural.

This drop off thing will probably never feel "normal" - but it will become regular and just how things operate. It's part of divorced life. You'll get used to it and not think about it. It becomes routine.


Focus on your changed life and how it is going to be structured. Not on how it used to be or you wish it was.

The sun will shine in your life again. But you have to let it. Don't over think this coulda/shoulda/woulda stuff.

You can schedule and do whatever you want till Sunday Eve - what is that going to be ?

notashoped: You make it sound pretty easy. That was your experience, apparently. It is not mine. This is not easy, and I am fortunate in many, many ways...but that should not take away from the fact that this experience has been absolutely devastating to me...and to my boys.

Lucky? I don't think luck has much to do with anything. This was a choice that WH made. An unfortunate choice for many people, including at least five innocent kids.

Just because it is unlikely that I will be financially devastated as well may make it easier in that regard, but there's more to this for me than finances. For the record, he's not "willing" to forgo equity, that's the court's call, as is the amount of support he pays; and the fact that he pays it in full is because it is garnished from his wages.

Further, please don't compare your situation to mine. I was NOT a "bad" wife with spending problems, irresponsibility, etc. as you claim was the case in your marriage. I was ill-informed on how to build and sustain a successful marriage. I loved my H; he loved me. But once we fell into bad habits of not putting each other first, it was a slippery slope.

And in his current fogged out state, WH may say that:
or that I am "high and mighty."

Or he might say this:
Wow. I have a HUGE problem with this. Again...it sounds exactly like what WH might say. That it's sad, "BUT." It's better for the kids. That he'll be relieved to get divorced. Maybe he even thinks of me as a "bad investment," in which the losses were "unacceptable" and would doom him to a life of "disappointment and unhappiness."

I certainly hope I don't come across as the person you describe...because it is not me.

If I don't come across that way, then making comparisons between your situation and mine are like comparing apples and oranges.

Honestly, if I want to hear this stuff, I could call up WH and ask him why we are getting divorced, and he could spew all of this stuff right at me...and I'd get the inflection as a bonus. Maybe he'd even through in some really personal digs as well since he knows me intimately.

I don't need to hear this affirmed at the Marriage Builders site. Ouch.