I think maybe that I feel a bit compelled at this point in my life (with all the changes and growth) to pay attention to the deep dark parts. I feel like I need to know what's THERE. To explore it a little.

Then I'm prepared to let it go. If I didn't take the time to know what is THERE, then it wouldn't feel like letting go, it would feel like denial.

This isn't to say that I go there and stay there. NO way! I DO NOT let it consume me.

I look at it, feel it, try to figure out where it comes from and what it's really about...then sort of file it away as new information about myself.

Does that make sense?

Once it's filed away, then I can come back to the NOW and relish it.

(Even if I have to work from home and run in for a meeting with the kids in tow when I'd rather go to the beach... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Anyway, today what I filed away was the thing about a father not being my gift to give. I have other gifts I can give! Lots of them. So this is good.

This stuff takes practice. But I'm getting it.

Although our ISSUES seem so much THE SAME, I try to stay away from your thread 'cause of this MAJOR DIFFERENCE between you and I at this point IN MY LIFE....

I don't want you to think for one minute that I'm advocating for you to COPE in the same way that I do...

But I definitely don't go to my DARK PLACES, look around in there or explore there ANYMORE...



For me it's definitely not DENIAL..but I was in years of INSIGHT-ORIENTED PSYCHOTHERAPY..YUCK..

I know EXACTLY what's there... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Again I say I CHOOSE NOT to go there as it seems that you are CHOOSING to go there...

I'm not saying that is BAD or WRONG...

I do feel that CHOOSING NOT TO GO THERE IS NOT DENIAL..FOR ME..it's CHOOSING JOY...

I believe in the POWER OF THE MIND...

I still get TRIGGERED by all sorts of stuff..even DAILY..and know I can sink back into some STINKING, UGLY THINKING..but I SHAKE IT OFF..and MOVE ON...find something FUN AND EXCITING to do...

Today I'm more of a BEHAVIORIST...I believe it's called COGNITIVE BEHAVIORAL THERAPY (CBT) that they use now for DEPRESSION...

ANTYWAYS...Carry on, my dear....with however YOU CHOOSE to LIVE YOUR LIFE...

I sincerely support that..YOU BEING YOU...just sharing my experience..if it helps at all..

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It does help, mimi.

I hope I'm not overstepping, but I have a sense that you had many more challenges and struggles in your life growing up than I did. I can see why you may not want to go there. As you said...you know what's lurking in the dark places.

You are ahead of me there. And I didn't mean to imply that YOU were in denial...that's how *I* would feel.

Because I've lived a pretty much golden life, it's taking a little work for me to identify some of the "stuff" I've been carrying around. I've been very fortunate! And I don't think my stuff is necessarily DARK...it's more relevatory (is that a word?).

A journey of discovery. Yes, it is my way of dealing with it...at the same time I'm trying to define what my internal boundaries are.

Finding out what's there helps me to understand my motivations...so that I can move on to the fun and exciting stuff without fear (or less fear, anyway).

I think that knowing MYSELF better will make me more joyful! Yay!

Does that make sense?

Sorry it makes you uncomfortable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

There is something healthy...after reaching a new perspective... in digging into the closets and dragging out all the old baggage and beliefs to see if it still fits - and tossing out the old truths that no longer fit in the new realitly.

It's called the 4th and 5th step.

I don't go into my baggage much either these days, but I've also done a pretty good inventory and so I know whats there. Every now and then I still find stuff that doesn't fit anymore and toss it out.

Jeez, Sis, sometimes I think you and I should just share a thread. This so describes me, too.

Okay, so try reading your last couple of posts and pretending that I wrote them. What would your advice be?

Are you overcomplicating and overanalyzing things?


My Sunday kid-swap is when I feel worst, because of some of the same reasons. But do you really need to pursue it past feeling resentful that they have to go with him at all? When they go with him, they're not with you. Bang--in your face with infidelity and its effects. Of course you're resentful. Personally, I feel free to go with the next sentence, too (that he doesn't deserve them) in the context of letting myself feel my anger. Past that (that he couldn't possibly really love them--and beyond), does it help?

That does not seem like LOVE to me. Not even close. But that can't be true...he can't have fallen out of love with his children the same way he fell out of love with me. He MUST love them. I know he does. But his ACTIONS say otherwise.

Maybe you need to examine WHO you believe the ACTIONS are toward, and separate the issue, separate YOURSELF from the issue. Do you truly believe that your WH does not love his children, or is it the way he is treating YOU, and 'the family'?

I'm not being critical of you, I'm asking you to separate yourself from the boys when talking about treatment doled by WH. Believe me, I have been guilty of lumping DS and myself together in how *I* feel about something. The truth was, when DS was with PWC, he loved every minute, and was loved every minute. Being separated from me, and me being the primary caregiver, PWC did not have nearly as much time with DS as when we were, and are, together.

DS would be so sullen after PWC left him each week, so bereft. Yes, this was partly due to PWC's choice to leave his wife, but he never WANTED to leave his kid. PWC never wanted his son to be out of his life, just his wife. Harsh? Yup, it hurts me to think about this, but it's PWC's truth, and I will not try to make it conform to how I feel about family.

I told PWC a number of times that what he was doing was tantamount to ABANDONMENT of his family. He never believed that. He believed that he was still very much a part of HIS family, with his son. It's a different perspective that a wayward may have, and in that state of mind, they love their children. This view may change as time goes by and/or gets away from them. Who knows? Right now, he loves his kids as HE does, not as you deem LOVING.

Good lord! I hope some of that made sense... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I can so relate to these feelings Sis and SL. But I have to disagree on some points, SL. (which is so unlike me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

I have a hard time believing that WH loves our DDs to the same degree that he did while he was in the M (physically and mentally). He CONTINUALLY chooses Bab's over his daughters. I don't believe that is only my perception. DD13 has clearly stated that she is a visitor when she is with her dad. It is Dad and Bab's and DDs are there to visit. DD12 has voiced the same feelings.

I do have to agree that WH DOES NOT believe this in the least. He DOES NOT believe he left his children. That is one point I will never be willing to give on. He left them just as surely as he left me. Even if he would have taken them with him, he was still voluntarily giving them up for the portions of time that they would "visit" me.

When we went to dinner a few weeks ago, I laid this out to him when he repeatedly said that he did not leave our DDs. You could almost see the light bulb come on above his head. He was silent for a few minutes, then said "oh"

I understand what he meant and I really think that he believed he was not leaving them. While I won't give on this belief that he did (be right or be married), it is something I would be willing to work through at some point. His belief can be different than my belief, that doesn't make either one of us wrong (or right).

If they would only stand in the childrens' shoes and think about how THEY would feel as a child in this situation.



I think my WH did. That may sound cold and callous, but I think in a way that he DID want to leave them. To go have fun, to do what he pleased whenever he pleased with no thoughts of anyone but himself. DDs were fine with Fox, so they could be LEFT with her while he was out having fun and recreating himself. I think he believes they will be waiting whenever he has time for them.



What do the children deem as loving? The perception of each child is that childs truth, just as our's is.

Who teaches the children what loving is?

Mom and Dad.

o if Sis does not see his treatment as loving as she knows it, do her boys?

As you can tell, I'm still struggling with this concept myself. When WH left the family, he left us ALL. We had a HOME and a WHOLE FAMILY. He removed himself from all of it.

Sorry if I got off an a TJ, Sis.

Fox

Hey Foxy lady,

OH, don't get me wrong, my perception of loving a child is also loving their parent, your spouse, and caring for them, showing this love through your time and patience.

I don't AGREE with PWC's beliefs, I am just stating that HE believes them, so he IS, with what he believes to be true, loving his children.

Yup, agree that Mom and Dad are the guides, and that leaving sends children the wrong message, and teaches them to run.

I'm not saying anything about REALITY here, I'm stating that Sis' WH may believe IN HIS MIND, that his love is full and real. THis may be the only way he will be loving his kids forever. Her WH may separate his feeling for the boys from his feelings for Sis and 'family'. HE may have redefined 'family' so that he can live with his choice.

My post was not about excusing any behavior, but looking at it for what it is.

edited to add...

Oh, I know PWC said he never WANTED to leave his DS, but he DID LEAVE. My part in this whole mess is to extracate myself from his relationship with DS, and accept that he may truly believe that he did the ONLY thing he COULD. I know this is a lie we tell ourselves, to make living with our choices easier; it's an EXCUSE. Whether PWC believes this or not is not something I can change.

Okay, THAT I can agree with. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



This always makes my day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Fox

LilSis,

I completly agree with you. WH left all of us... he may have only wanted to leave me but the children live in our home.

How dor you argue with your children when this is how they view it. Both my daughters feel he abandoned all of us for his own selfishness.

If there are speeling mistak-es it's Logan he can't spe;; yet[p. '


He's chasing my fingers.

Still

SL and Fox:
Thanks for that dialogue. The clarification really helped. I understand what you are saying, SL. From my perspective, it seems like such a cop-out, so lame. But to WH, I am SURE that he believes he is doing something right for the boys. Twisted around justifications and rationalizations to make it work for him...but it is his "truth."

I KNOW the boys feel abandoned. They have said so. For a long time, every time they made a wish (like in a fountain), it would be for Dad to come home. They MISS him being a part of their everyday lives. They miss doing things all of us together. They have asked him to come home, and he says no. This has and will continue to hurt them.

This is a matter of fact, not opinion. I think even WH would agree that they are hurt by this, but he has stated that it would be worse for them to grow up with parents who have an "empty relationship." So from his perspective, it is "lesser of two evils" thing, and the choice that is "less evil" to WH is for him to leave the family home. (As if the fact that it works out so much better for he and RT is just an added bonus)

ALSO a matter of fact: I can't fix it--either what WH is doing, nor his opinion. Neither is mine to fix. WH is going to do what he's going to do. It hurts to know that the boys are paying such a huge price, but I can only do the best job I can...as a mom.

I'm TRULY okay with just doing my part. In fact, it unburdens me. I do not feel responsible for giving the boys the gifts that only a father can give. It is simply beyond my ability. (sigh of relief)

I thank God that I will never have to live with the kind of regret that WH may have someday. I truly thank God for that. As bad as the stuff I've been through is, I can tell you now that I'd rather be in my shoes than his.

I am okay with me; I can look at myself and know that I'm FAR from perfect, but I'm not awful, either. I'm going to do the best job I can as mom (although I felt today as if they were acting really spoiled, ugh).

Whatever relationship they have with WH, well, that's on him. He'll have to figure out his part. I don't envy him that.

Still: Wow! Logan can type! Talented kitty. Gonna keep him or is he still going to college?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I second that statement!!! LMAO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sounds familiar. Fog talk. ("Well, yes, divorce will probably hurt them. . . .") Sigh.

You said all the right stuff. You can only be the best mom that you can be.

(((Sis)))

My response to this statment, these days is...

[color:"blue"]Well, I agree, of course I do not want our son/s to grow up with parents who have an 'empty relationship'. Good lord, that does sound horrible; how's 'bout we DON'T do that and work on having a GREAT relationship, that way, the boys don't have to grow up like that... [/color]

Of course, Sis could have that conversation with a fire hydrant and get equally satisfying results.

Your H sounds like a deeply selfish man.

Just for the sake of argument let's pretend that RT *IS* a better match for him than you are.

At the moment that's true in fact because they are both riding the feelings train from the same immature and characterless platform.

Nevertheless two people putting forth 100% effort into making a good marriage are not going to have "empty" marriage unless both of them are completely worthless individuals who have absolutely nothing of value to bring to a relationship.

Let's unveil his true motives and nature.

Even IF she was a better match for him that does NOT support a belief that a marriage with you would be empty.

Using those all or nothing extreme statements is his way of avoiding the simple but very inconvenient truth that he is choosing to fullfill himself at the expense of others...and that his own sons are included at the top of the "others" list.

He is saying that the fact that he is hornier for RT than he is for you is sufficient reason for his children to come from a broken home.

That is BULLSH*T and he can't defend it framed that directly so he has to cover his butt by suggesting the choice is between starvation [in which case he surely can't feed hs children after all so OBVIOUSLY he has to choose to not starve to be able to give them anything...right?] and fullfillment.

Truthfully the choice is between what he perceives as italian cuisine and mexican...and he prefers italian.

When whittled down to it's most honest foundation his choice is exposed for the purely selfish and childish hedonism it really is.

You might give some consideration to the possibility that your H has some very DEEP character flaws that were either never circumstantially exposed or which you had overlooked on a smaller scale..because...he really has kept this up for a long time. A very significant portion of your marriage has been with him as an active wayward AND this behavior has been supported by your general environment.

He is willing to bring ANY amount of wreckage into ANYONES life who stands between him and his idol and he'll do it with a song in his heart and a peacefull nights rest due to a very sophisticated process of rationalisation and justification.

That ain't a new skill or habit LS.

Anyone who can keep this up to THIS degree and for THIS long is highly suspect in my opinion to have never developed any real moral compass or integrity and to have been working with nothing more functional than a reasonable facsimile.

He is willing to bring ANY amount of wreckage into ANYONES life who stands between him and his idol and he'll do it with a song in his heart and a peacefull nights rest due to a very sophisticated process of rationalisation and justification.

That ain't a new skill or habit LS.

__________________

i wonder if he is just totally [censored] whipped.

LS explained that RT was highly manipulative and if that is WH's big weakness RT does have the power...as she once proclaimed and LS never even got a chance to win WH back because he is so ruled by his other head.
Little doubt that RT tells him that he will never have the kind of sex life w/ LS as he has w/ her and he believes her!
and that's enough for his self-absorbed mid-life brain to rationalize everything else away.

i imagine things will change after the divorce.

I agree. As I have mentioned on this thread before, I've never seen a WS behave quite like this one.

Sis, have you ever looked up the term "narcissism"? These are folks who don't really have a personality of their own but only see themselves as other reflect them. Therefore, other people aren't really people to them but only sources of attention, admiration, money, sex, whatever it is. They don't have the concept of caring for someone else any more than a "normal" person would care about their TV set.

To the narc, people are just sources to give them what they want the way a TV set is just a source of entertainment to the rest of us. When you're done with the TV, you turn it off and don't give it another thought until you want to watch it again. When a narc is done with *you*, he walks away and doesn't give you another thought until he wants something from you again.

He'll stay with you as long as you're giving him what he wants, but if he finds a better source he'll drop you and pick up the other source in a heartbeat - and is simply not capable of understanding why that would be wrong.

(It's wrong because other people are Human Beings, not TV sets, but the narc will never grasp that concept and cannot fathom why you think he should.)

Look it up. There's loads of stuff on the Internet about it.
Mulan

Manipulative shmanipulative...this has been ongoing for too many years. If he is P whipped it is because his basic character allows for that and supports that and he's comfortable with that.

No amount of stroking [ego or otherwise] will work beyond a certain period of time or a certain amount of loss UNLESS that IS an acceptable loss to the person in question.


If he had been behaving this way for 6 months my opinion would be different or at least not cemented.

If he had "woken up" when real consequences occurred...ditto.

Everything he has done has been very very consistent and I form my opinion of WHO this man is on his behaviors, attitudes, reactions, and choices over a long period of time and a broad spectrum of choices.

If he is P whipped it is because his basic character allows for that and supports that and he's comfortable with that.

____________---

that's exactly what i was thinking.
i agree that it is a character flaw.

i wasn't making excuses for it.....and, i don't think it's all that uncommon that men are willing to give up EVERYTHING for what they consider good sex.

I think Dr.Harley even talked about this in His Needs/Her Needs .
I remember him mentioning how some men will keep a mistress for a life time just to get the sex.

I think LS's WH would have tried to do that...but she found out and he choose his path.