LilSis,

Been trying to catch up on the happenings in your life.

From everything you are saying I have come to 2 conclusions:

1 - you are doing great!

2 - things are starting to get real smelly in turd-land

It seems your WH is having a lot more trouble letting you go than you have had letting him go. That is no longer your concern, but interesting none-the-less.

Personally, I picture your neighbor "running into" your WH(orchestrated by him?) while in uniform and using his best intimidation/interrogation tactics to weasel out some information from her.

It's pathetic and funny all at the same time.

I guess I see a distinction between trying to understand something in order to control it, and getting my facts straight.

If I don't know the circumstances under which the information was revealed, then I would end up setting a boundary that I don't really need to establish.

If she just slipped, or ran into him at the grocery store and mentioned it offhand...that's much different than her deciding that WH should know that my mom was coming to get DS9 off to school on Weds. and choosing to relay that information to him.

To me, they are two different things, and the response that I CHOOSE will be entirely different:
*Firm boundary with no further confidences
*More relaxed boundary, but with caution about how slips may occur.

I'd like to know where I stand so that *I* can decide what to do...how *I* will behave in the future based on this knowledge. Not as an attempt to control HER.

More like an environmental scan? Checking my perceptions (that she's trustworthy) with the reality (maybe she's not?).

Or am I completely off base....

I don't feel so much bristly as I feel baffled or confused.

I agree with you here. I may well be the one who's off base. Just be careful how you go about talking to your neighbor, because I think it could easily go in ways you don't intend.

lilsis; I think you are looking at this exactly right.
Its a boundry you *may* need to institute, but are wisely evaluating it first.

I would do the same, get the context in which this information was shared. Then decide how to proceed. Maybe at that point you ask her not to share information with WH. Maybe you explain your plan. Maybe you decide to change the parameters of your relationship. Maybe you limit what you share with her.

But, you have to know what you're up against before you make any rash decisions.

I think you can pull off this questioning nicely. Probably far "nicer" than WH was when trying to glimpse into your life!!! hehehehe.

Just curious, but how does WH expect to have the boys overnight on a school night? Where would they sleep?

Last 2 yes, first 2 no.

Sis has the right idea here. Find out the information and use it to decide how she will act next. Asking the neighbor to change her actions or trying to explain herself is crossing that line of trying to control the other person.

Small comment. This might be a good "if the shoe was on the other foot" type of thing to think about. If he had the kids and had a conflict where he needed someone else to come take care of them for a bit, would you be OK with him doing that ? Or would you prefer and want him to call/contact you (or go-between) to see if you could do it first before having someone else do it ?

In a divorce with kids, the ideal is for the parents to work together and share the kid responsibilities - and ask each other first if there are taking care of the kids needs. In some agreements it's called "the right of first refusal". You could have had LK write him an E-mail saying you had a commitment and could he keep the kids and get them off to school. Would you want him to do that if the situation was reversed ?

Just asking.... IMO - using the "if the shoe was on the other foot" method when the kids are involved sometimes helps in making the best decision for the kids.


JMO

It went fine with neighbor....I had come to the conclusion even prior to speaking with her that I would keep it all in perspective. I KNOW that she means no harm, if she slipped, or even if she thought acted intentionally, I don't believe she intended to harm me or betray my trust. Whatever she did, I'm sure she thought it was for the best.

I will just be cautious in the future, in case things "slip." This is just wise for me to do. I don't want to put her in an awkward position. She's been a good friend.

She told me that she hadn't spoken to WH in several weeks, and thought perhaps DS11 could have overhead a conversation....who knows. I'm letting it go. I'll just watch myself in the future.

In terms of the "shoe on the other foot" thing....the way I see it, I have primary custody. It is up to me to make arrangements for times when I am not able to be in two places at once.

Perhaps I would want the "right of first refusal" IF I had been the one who abandoned my kids and as a result I was no longer a daily fixture in their lives. It was his choice to leave, to remove himself from their daily routines. I don't think that I OWE him a courtesy call when I am making my plans. I'm just living my life; he's no longer part of it.

I am 100% accountable for the time that the boys are in my care, and I prefer to find my own alternative arrangements when I have a conflict. It's not as if I was pawning the kids off on some random stranger. It's my mom (who needed to be in town anyway). And I assume that WH feels the same, since he frequently leaves the boys in the care of his parents.

So I guess I can't put that stinky old shoe on my foot, because I am not the one who chose to leave the kids in the first place. I'm sure things DO look differently in his shoes.

Yes, it would be ideal for both parents to work together. But that requires that both parents treat one another with respect and consideration, and have a similar belief about what is harmful for the kids (I could go on and on here). WH lives in Turdland. None of these "should bes" are what "is," so I operate under the circumstances that ARE.

Which means that to protect myself, I am by the book...everything operates to the letter of our temporary orders: drop off times, pick up locations, etc. This leaves nothing open to negotiation or quid pro quo.

Sis, the way I view those comments about what's ideal for the kids and the shoe and other foot thing is that someday they may be appropriate for you. Right now, it's not realistic.

Glad to hear that it went well with the neighbor.

To avoid totally jacking sd's thread, I'm reacting to a statement he made about SCQ:


The operative words in this statement are "can" and "once." Those words represent two choices that only the WS can make: to wake up, and then to become different.

They may not EVER make one or both choices.

What if they are not "asleep"? What if they are DOA?

I have a little theory. I think that SOME WSs (probably mine) become so lost in the fog that it becomes their reality. Maybe it's a bit of the EVIL thing that mimi talks about....that the fog permeates their soul, and eats away at it so that in time, there is nothing left of the soul. The only thing left is superficial; empty on the inside. Hollow. Living with evil has sucked the life out of them.

Think Gollum. (sorry chris) Know what I mean?

I'm probably depressing the heck out of you, sd.

I guess I see WH that way. He is so lost; has done so much damage; intentionally hurt so many people; been so totally selfish; even cruel; so dishonest; so dishonorable. He has betrayed everything about himself...about who he WAS at his core. He is now a different person entirely.

All that's left now is someone who goes through the motions, and I'm left wondering how much is "for show," how much is really sincere, because his willingness and ability to do what he has done reveals something very inconsistent with any present behavior that appears benevolent.

Did that make sense?

If it does, I guess that's even more reason to "let go." This sickness or death of a soul is something that only God can fix.

It was probably easier for me to get to that point because of the "violent and unstable" thing. That was the 2x4 I needed to truly see how far gone WH was. Or maybe it was the last straw.

Anyway....as much as I don't want it for you, sd, it might be good if SCQ did something even more truly awful so that you could feel okay with yourself about washing your hands of her, knowing you did what you could, and giving her to God. Let her be God's problem, not yours.

LS:

Oh where, Oh where, did our LilSis go?

LG

LilSis,

Be careful with your neighbor. I got into the middle of a divorce situation in which my friend was suspicious that I was telling things to her husband (whom I privately thought of as "The Rat"). She asked, and I agreed to take her daughter in the morning (he would drop off) and she would pick up in the afternoon. I told both of them that I would tell them about my daugher's and my time with their daughter but I would not be a source of information for either of them about the other person. This situation lasted two weeks because my friend was wanting to know about when he dropped off and what he brought. I told her I didn't want to get in the middle. Here I was providing free childcare for the day (and, in fact, planning weekly field trips with her daughter and my daughter), and she got upset because I didn't want to say when he dropped off the child.

There were other arrangements for childcare where the husband dropped off the daughter, and he did try to pump me for information, but I had no interest whatsoever in providing him with information, either.

It may well be that your friend is being a friend and your husband got the information from somewhere else. My friend wanted me to have absolutely nothing to do with her husband. I told her that I was being civil to him. I wouldn't walk away from him if he came over to chat at a school function or sat down with us at a pancake breakfast, for example.

Anyway, my friend moved about 1/2 hour away. We get together occasionally. I feel hurt that she would want to get me in the middle when she had her husband dropping off her child with me, but I figure I did my best. And, besides, this guy really deserved my private label of "The Rat". He alleged child abuse and tried to get her thrown out of the house. His plan was she, a stay at home mom, would need to get a job, pay child support, and not be able to be with her children.

When you have been as hurt as you have been by your husband, a person whom you trusted enough and have children with, you can be suspicious of even the most well meaning friends and neighbors.

Cherishing

Good thoughts in your last post, Sis. I've been chewing on them and hoping that someone more experienced would come along and comment about the personality change thing.

I.e., after this much waywardness, how realistic is it to continue to blame their bad behavior on the affair? To think that they can wake up and become a different person?

I think that ultimately a person makes a choice when they have done something like this for so long. I think criminals do it, too.


Do I admit my wrongness

OR

Do I steadfastly cling to what I am doing and live through it, no matter what?


You can see it in criminals - some fess up, others go through the entire criminal justice process, even sit in jail for years, and deny the clear evidence presented before them. There are those who are actually caught on VIDEO committing the crime and say, "That isn't me."


They obviously chose the second option.


Maybe that explains it.


At work, I try to break down people's reasoning. This often involves the process of using something that goes entirely against my nature - that is, I use "illogic" to solve problems and explain how people have come to certain conclusions in their reasoning. (Now, this is the fun part of my world!)

In other words, sometimes the "solution" to things doesn't have to make sense.

Sometimes, peoples' reasoning isn't "reasonable". It is a choice that they make that is clearly against the morals, ethics, and sensibilities of the social norms.

But they make the choice anyway, because of something intrinsic or idiosyncratic. That reason might be one of a thousand things - self-preservation, protecting a secret, misplaced loyalty, whatever. But they have a "reason" for making the decision they made.


I particularly like it when I get the chance to review the thought process with the person, and find out I hit the mark. Very rewarding. (I am such a nerd.)

In the case of Sis' WH, I think he chose option 2.

I'm not exactly sure what his reasoning would be, but I have my suspicions. But I do know this - he knows it is the wrong choice. And I do believe he has already figured that out, given his recent communications.

SB

Hi guys, thanks for checking in.

It's been busy with school starting. I must have a million forms to fill out every day. And I'm trying to squeeze in every hour of work that I can between kid pick-up and drop-off.

I met with my attorney yesterday to review everything. Nothing much new; just looking ahead to the next settlement conference on the 27th.

Plus, I'm afraid my trusty little iMac might be ready to bite the dust. It had trouble firing up the other morning and I about panicked. I went out last night and bought a portable hard drive to back everything up (something I never do). I had no idea what I was doing, and thought it would be much easier than it has turned out to be. I keep getting these error messages when I try to copy files over in bulk, so I end up going through and copying one thing at a time. What a pain.

I also bit the bullet and ordered a new iMac. After four years, the boys can lay claim to this one while it lasts. Cha-ching. It's only money. Yikes.

So that's been my life. Not much time to think about WH.

I'm glad what I wrote made some sense to you, sd. I wasn't sure if anyone would understand what I was trying to say. You summarized it perfectly.

I think I agree with SB, and it makes me sad. I do wish, in my deepest places, that he would not continue to make the choice to throw everything away, but nonetheless....he has done so and is doing so. This is my life NOW, and WH is slowly becoming a distant, bittersweet memory.

He knows it's wrong. He knows it's bad for his children. He knows he is hurting me, the boys, and his family undeservedly.

It is what it is. None of the above matters to him. It's collatoral damage. And he is clearly a MASTER of denial, and is capable of minimizing the damage in his own mind...and reallocating the blame at the same time. Bonus!

I believe that WH will doggedly continue down this path to his ultimate destruction....a destruction that he may not even recognize. What I am trying to say is that I don't know that he will even realize that he has become Gollum.

Once he's that far gone, can those things that are good and right and whole and true even permeate his conscious mind? Do those things even exist anymore, or do they just become abstractions?

My answer holds: only God can make that happen, and only if WH is open to God working in him. It would be miraculous.

Regarding SB's comment about WH making an "unreasonable choice": I sort of came to the same conclusion on my own...which really helped with "letting go." It makes NO SENSE. I spent so much energy trying to figure out WHY and find some loophole that would explain it and even blamed myself. The truth is, there is no logic or sense or compassion in what WH did.

This was me trying to grab onto something I could control, something I could FIX to put the pieces of my life back together. Thinking that I had the POWER! What a desperate place to be....a pointless place. I am relieved to have given that up.

What's so interesting to me now is that WH isn't sitting there denying that he's done this. He acknowledges it, but is unmoved.

He is (as you said) steadfastly clinging to what he's doing and living through it, no matter what.

What I wonder most about now is not WHY this happened....because it is inexplicable. What I wonder about now is HOW he can look himself in the mirror everyday. How he can LIVE with what he's done.

I just can't for the life of me understand how he can function. I try to put myself in his shoes and I can't imagine living with it. And from the outside (superficially?), WH appears to be functioning just fine.

He's just a shell of who he once was, and a hard shell at that. If anything permated that most superficial layer of his Self, he probably would not be able to manage it.

He'd self-destruct.

Survival is a powerful instinct.


ETA: I don't say these things out of anger or bitterness (not right now anyway). It FEELS more like a puzzling scientific question. Like a mystery that could be solved...not a problem that can be fixed. It is apart from me, not dependant on me.

Hi, just dropping in, I wanted to share something that my Spon. has told me a time or two...

She said the older she gets the less she understand about life...

Now, you would think that as we age we become wiser...at least I would like to think that! Thing is something are not meant to be understood!

Well, LMAO, there's my ywo cents for the day! Good thing I get another two cents tomorrow! LMAO
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Take care, You ARE such a wonderfuly blessed person with so much to offer...just knowing you has added to my blessings! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sis,

You are running right up my alley.

The analysis of reason.

The science in this is just fascinating - and when I get the *fortunate?* chance to really tease out with someone their reasoning when they have done something that absolutely didn't make sense, what pearls come out.

Your WH is just so classic, I think. Of course, I don't know him, but the pattern seems so typical. He's just not that different.

He chooses to stand steadfastly behind a bad decision because - for his own "reasons" - he cannot turn around now and go back.

If one were to ask those "reasons", they just would not make any sense at all to YOU, because you hold the idea that this whole thing could be repaired. He does not believe that. His "reasons" stand in the way. However illogical they may seem to you, to me, to those of us who are out here in the sunlight and not in the fog, his "reasons" stand for him right now.

The very interesting thing here is that once his fog lifts, his "reasons" will seem just as ridiculous and weak to him then as they do to us now. When I have experienced what could be called a "debriefing", the reasoning process is viewed as so illogical in hindsight - and the person cannot understand their own reasoning in the moment, although they are very good at explaining that reasoning process.

They do understand that the reasoning was ill-based at the time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I do believe that he does know (or will know) that he has screwed up. What you describe as a shell is a very good analogy. What you see outside is simply a hard covering for a quivering mass of jelly on the inside - that inside mass that cannot stand on its own, because there is nothing holding it up or together. He knows that, deep inside.

The issue becomes, for him, when/whether he comes to a point to face it all.

In the case of an affair, I believe that when one or the other of the affair partners comes to the point of facing this, the affair begins to unravel. Because that's when the sunlight breaks through, and the fantasy just goes "poof".

It is only a matter of time. Again, he makes that choice. It isn't under your control. Scientifically interesting, nonetheless.

SB: Never responded, but this stuff is really, really fascinating. Did you by chance write the article in the lastest issue of Time? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just checking in. Status quo; busy with getting back into the swing of the school year. It is so busy; I'm on the road carting kids here and there, or in the office.

I'm busy enough, and we have such a routine, that WH and the A and this whole experience doesn't really effect me. I just live my life, enjoy my boys, and enjoy my friends.

However, it's still there, and it's probably still healthy for me to process some stuff here. I don't want to "bank" this stuff (thanks sdguy).

My feelings these days related to WH are just sadness. I had a little pity party for myself on Sunday, but it was more generalized grieving my losses. My dad, H, my dreams for the boys in terms of the family life they'd have. So I sat on the swingset outside and cried for about a half hour, then went back into the house and resumed my day.

I sort of vacillate between feeling sorry for WH for becoming the person he has become, and being angry at him for CHOOSING to be that way. But the anger isn't like this flame, it's more like a flicker that passes quickly (know what I mean?).

You know what I wish for these days?

I wish that WH would truly, fully realize what he's done and make a sincere, heartfelt apology to me, and put his whole self into making things right with the boys...including being a good role model for them.

An attempt to reconcile isn't really part of the equation for me anymore (another reason for the "sadness"), but to know that HE knows what an awful, selfish, hurtful thing he has done...that would be consolation.

I could at least respect him for that.

I am sad that I don't really have any respect for the man that is now, because he was so admirable for so long.

Anyway...gotta go get ready for the work day and the kids out the door. But it really felt good to process some of this and get it down on the keyboard.

I have to remember how important it is to write this stuff, and not get too disconnected from this place, because this place has had probably more to do with my healing as anything I have done.

For this, I will be eternally grateful and feel blessed for the angels here who have guided me and supported me on this journey.

Thank you, everyone.

Hey LilSis,

We are on the road to healing. A year ago would you have imagines we could of ever been this far?

I also have sadness about my WH...the road that he is going down. All the respect he has lost from everyone. The most important people in his life, his children. I'm not sure if he is capable of ever getting that back. He is in a place I would never want to be in. Yes sometimes I also have a pity party because he has someone...then I remind myself the type of person he actually ahs in his life. A woman (and I use the term loosely) that thinks nothing of helping to destroy 2 families. One that has done this previously to her first H.

LilSis lets rejoice in what we do have...the love and RESPECT of our children. This is something I never want to lose.

Still

LMAO...Your life sounds like mine right now! Carting them here and there! I love the fact that they consume alot of my time! I enjoy being with them, just like you! How old are they?


I TOTALLY relate! thia is EXACTLY how I feel about POWS! Good to know I'm not alone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I completely agree, I have to remember that when I want to pull back is the time that I should be posting and not isolating myself...that's when the downward spiral begins!


That's the payoff as far as I'm concerned! I know that's a long way down the road when they come back to you later in life and thank you for everything that we have done for them...that will be the greatest day of JOY for ME! I remember what i felt when I did that to my grandpa! So I look forward to the day that happens!

YOu are doing awesome...i know I can look back and think that the struggle wasn't AS BAD as I thought it was when i was in it! AND I'm a better person b/c of it! Closer to God and HAPPIER with life, able to enjoy the smaller things in life!

It's got to go UP from here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, guys!

Yeah, the pity parties are very few and far between, but probably necessary....as necessary as posting here....sharing and receiving validation that I'm not alone in these feelings.

Isn't it odd (or perhaps divine?) that there are so many of us in about the same spot?

My kids, my friends, my sisters, my job...things are good. Really good. I feel like a success. I have so much to be grateful for. I'm making it. When I think back to the REALLY dark days, I never, ever thought I would make it.

And I SO agree, Still...I do not envy WH. I don't even consider the fact that he "has" someone, because she represents something so ugly and so wrong, that I cannot possibly envy THAT. Although the thought of the dating world is icky, I really do look forward to being with someone who loves me, who doesn't judge me, who truly cares for me, who is willing to GIVE. Someone with whom I can have a reciprocal relationship, an equal relationship, an adult relationship. Someone who is mature.

We will ALL get there, I am confident of this. Someday, when the time is right. First we will be really good on our own (and I know I still have work to do in the area of confidence), and then, with someone else.

We done good, ladies.