Sis,

The core is the core. He can add the facets of bad, but he KNOWS what came before. He will lament its loss. It is our nature to lament the loss of good things from our lives.

Consider basic things, not even big things:

We lament when we have new crayons, and one breaks. Just this one good crayon, and there is a feeling of sadness and all of a sudden, you don't even want to use that color anymore. It is lost. And each time you need that color, you remember the moment, and relive the loss.

And that's just a crayon!


It's just our nature to know what we had, and to know what was good, and to look back upon it when we lose it with sadness and longing.

Do you think WH is different?

He is not. I am not. You are not.

We are human.

As part of that, we have that core of the self. We know what was there as "me" before, and we look back at it and say to ourselves

I remember when I was so sad
I remember when I was so happy
I remember when I was so courageous
I remember when I was so weak
I remember when I was so still
I remember......

And I know.......these things of "me".

I have changed.........these things of me to be better, and I was better at ..........before, and worse at .........before.

I know this of "me". We all say

I wish I could be better at...........and not do ........ ever again.

I plan to make myself more ........... and less ........


Some of us work at it daily, consciously.
Others just wish. And nothing changes. Those people stay stagnant, and remain really crummy at ....... and never get better at ........because they don't work at it. They don't look at the core, don't add with effort - they just add as things are forced upon them through the events that are thrown in their faces, trials, tribulations, and sometimes luck.

These are the folks who have trouble sleeping, because they lie down with guilt, but do nothing to seek forgiveness for their transgressions.

They have bad habits, but make no effort to stop themselves.

They lead immoral lives, or have relationship problems, or other problems in their lives, but just don't take the time to figure out that THEY might be the problem. They just take the hits, make changes to their lives by buying a new car, moving to a new neighborhood, getting a new wife, getting a new job, or suppressing the feelings and thoughts they have. They don't make real changes.

Then, a few months or years down the line, they find themselves in the same problems they were in before, only with different people.

And they never figure out that the problem

is them.


Until, maybe, they take a look at the core. If for some reason, that longing to be what they knew they once were - that good person they used to know - surfaces again. That's when it all can happen.

We count on this for many things, Sis.

We count on this for recovering marriages!
We also count on this for redemption of the soul.
For forgiveness, for reuniting to God.

It can happen. Trust that it will happen. It might not happen in time to save your marriage to this man, Sis. But don't stop praying for your WH. And as far as RT goes, she too, has a soul. She is lost to God. He would have you pray for her. For if Jesus were to come today, He would look for those who are lost to Him, wouldn't He? It is a Christian's job to also help in this - to pray for the lost. Do this in the name of your Lord. If for no other reason, because He asks it of you. Just include her in the general prayer for those who are lost to Him. Her soul counts.

The truth is, I shouldn't be thinking of WH at all. In a way, though, I feel it is part of my personal recovery, if that makes sense. I want to find a way to "forgive" him. That doesn't quite feel like the right word. Maybe "live in harmony with" or "come to terms with."

I do long for a time when we can at least be friendly. But the man that IS now is not someone I would choose to be friends with. The man that IS now is distasteful, selfish, and I have nothing in common with him...except children. This is so sad for me.

I long for him to be someone that I can respect.

I'll keep praying for that. I'll keep remembering that the first Mass I attended in months was all about that very issue: that God does not abandon his lost sheep. He continues to search for them, and rejoices when they are found. I hope God reaches WH.

Such a loss. Such a waste.

Tomorrow I'm having new carpet installed in the boy's room. I saved significantly by moving everything and removing the old carpet and pad myself. It sounded like a good idea at the time I was placing the order, but tonight was quite a challenge getting everything out of there, carpet removed, and I scrubbed the floor underneath. It was gross. Reminds me why I hate carpet.

Anyway, I told DS11 he was going to have to be the man of the house and help me out. He did...he was a real trooper, helping move furniture and carrying out the roll of old carpet.

I told him how proud I was of him and how great a help he was. As we worked, I told him about how when his dad and I bought the house, how we did this and that...redoing the wood floors, stripping paint, etc. I was emphasizing how much Dad enjoyed that, and how he worked so hard to make a nice home. DS11 seemed surprised to hear about all the projects that WH had taken on, and I realized that is much of his memory, WH wasn't doing any of those things.

I just thought it was a good thing to share the stories of how much his dad put into the house, and how involved he was at one time. How happy it seemed to make him. I wanted DS11 to have that image of his dad demonstrating his commitment to his family.

Morning LilSis,

Forgiving is something I am still struggling with. Can you forgive someone who doesn't seek forgiveness, who doesn't think they "need" forgiveness. How does one forgive someone for completely destroying 2 families? As you can tell I don't think I'm anywhere near forgiving yet. Maybe someday or maybe not. I think "I need" to have remorsefulness in order to forgive. I am not going to let this stop me from moving forward with my life though.

Still

hi Sis, children need to have that connection with their past, even when one parent hasn't bolted.

My kids looooooooooove to hear "when I was a baby" stories and heck my 2 oldest are teens!

I think I've said this before, I don't believe in forgiving someone who has not asked for it. To do so is to judge - have you ever been told "I forgive you" by someone for something that you did, that was in your view, neither wrong not injust? How arrogant and condescending!

What I think you are trying to achieve is what many people call forgiveness, but what I call "Letting Go of the Grudge".

That doesn't involve judging the other person. It is simply about healing and letting go of past hurts and injustices.

BR: Yep, that's what I'm going for. To let go of the grudge. To be able to think of him not with anger or resentment, but with sadness and regret. I think I'm getting there. Slowly.

Forgiveness is something else. Forgiveness is something that we could only achieve together...even if it's not in a marriage...it's what would allow us to reestablish a relationship.

I would like very much to reestablish a relationship with WH. He has been an incredibly important person in my life. He's the father of my children. We will have a bond forever. But I simply can't have a relationship with someone who treats me (present tense) with such disregard, who takes no responsibility for the hurt he has caused me and our children.

This is protecting myself; taking care of myself.

Forgiveness would require him to make some amends, and that's something he'll have to do on his own. Letting go of the grudge is something I can do for myself, so that I don't feel eaten up inside, angry and bitter and hard-hearted.

Sis,

My daughter has written a song about lovers quarreling and the ultimate demise of the relationship. The lyrics go:

"Let's pretend like this never happened. We'll forgive but not forget, and move on with our grudge."

She's got some insight there.


I remember a long way back that I said that when you wanted to talk about forgiveness, that I would talk about that with you. But you had to be ready. I knew that ultimately you would come to the point where you would think about it.

It's a tough process, forgiveness. I talked once to a poster named RiverTam. I don't know if I could find that post again, but I will search and see if I can find it. If I can, I'll bump it for you. She was having so much trouble with forgiving. In the end, she did forgive. She found what you mentioned, sadness for him. She finally saw him for what he was - a sad little person, weak, but not what she once loved anymore. He was now someone different, not someone she wanted. And she found peace with that. She emailed me to tell me about it later.

I will go look for that thread.

SB

I posted this to a poster named Kinger. RiverTam was following the same thread at the time.

This was about 8 months after d-day for me. At this point, I still stand by it, I'm now at just under two years. I'm now married 32 years, and in a recovered (recovering? is it like AA?) marriage.

"So, take this reply from that standpoint - that I believe in recovery, and in forgiveness.

I think forgiveness is somewhat dependent on the person doing the forgiving. I think there are people who genuinely have a forgiving heart, and others who don't. Think about that - do you know folks who carry a grudge over very little transgressions? I do! I can see where if their spouse were to have an affair, the marriage would be over, period, no questions asked. On the other hand, there are forgiving people, who are able to let things go almost without any struggle at all it seems. And they can forgive really big stuff - people who can forgive murderers on death row who killed their kids, for example. Then, there are the regular people in the middle. People like me. I can forgive generally, but I struggle when it's something big. The affair, that's big. I feel pain, wallow in it; I feel anger, and wallow in that too. Sometimes us regular people have to wallow awhile and feel righteous and indignant and "justified" in our anger and pain, before we work our way around to forgiving. I don't know why, we just do. I guess I just had to have my hissy fits (this site calls them LoveBusters and Disrespectful Judgements) and yell a lot first.

But I have forgiven my FWH. Why? Because I have reason to do so. First, he is truly remorseful. I see that in word and deed, I see it in his eyes every day. As he continues to act in this way, consistently, I will know more and more that my forgiving him is the right thing to do. I know that right now, and it is more confirmed each day.

Second, I forgive him for myself. I have to deal with the pain and anger inside of myself. If I choose not to forgive, that means that I also have chosen to carry the anger. Anger brings with it a lot of emotional weight - forgiveness relieves that burden. There is a selfishness to the forgiveness, but I had to make a decision regarding forgiveness one way or the other. I made the right one for me.

Had I chosen not to stay with him, I still would have had to face the forgiveness decision. I would have had to face the anger every day, and at some point I either had to let it go, or let it eat me alive. I am much further along the path to my own personal recovery because I have worked through to the forgiveness.

Forgiveness does not get tied into a religion with me. It is tied into a sense of humanity. I have transgressed against others, and needed their forgiveness. Sometimes others forgave me, other times they didn't.

I have done things that I have needed to forgive myself for. I am hardest on myself. I tend to withhold forgiveness from myself more than anyone else.

Others have done things to me that require my forgiveness, and I have forgiven them all, as much as I recall. In this case, why should my husband be given less consideration than the others, or less consideration than myself?

Forgiveness unfolds, like a blossom. At first, it is just a green bud, tightly closed, hiding its beauty and refusing to show itself. Slowly, the color comes to the surface, giving you just a hint of what is hidden within. Cautiously the petals relax, one by one, and seek the light of the sun, unfurling its face. Finally, the flower opens fully and shows its glory to all who seek it.



Forgiveness is like that - it creeps up on you. Sort of like love."


As far as the question goes as to whether or not the other person should be involved? For me, I had to forgive people who never have, and never will, ask my forgiveness. There is no doubt that what they did to me was wrong - they committed the crimes of rape and assault against me. I forgive in this case for myself, a gift to myself. It freed me. I believe that I live in a healthy spirit today only because of the gift of forgiveness. If I were to inject religion into it, I believe that God would be proud of me when I find my way to forgive others.


Forgiveness is a paradox - it is a gift to yourself that cannot be kept unless it is given away.


I hope this helps you in your search for peace.

Schoolbus

SB,

Mind if I TJ a little. I think the hardest thing for me in this is that i forgave my WH after the first A. He didn't ask for my forgiveness, I willingly gave it to him. I figures everyone makes mistakes. I still feel he never forgave himself. I would tell him this also.

This time he knowingly repeated the actions that tore my heart out the first time. He has shown zero remorse. He even told our children that cheating isn't wrong. This time around I struggle with forgiveness. This time around he will have to show some remorse about how he hurt me and my kids in order for me to forgive him. At least that is how I feel today.

Still

I think you nailed it for me: remorse. There is none. Sure, WH said that he's sorry. Sure, I've seen him cry. But it seems superficial. I'm wondering if that's ME, looking through the lens of the BS, unable to truly recognize sincere remorse.

I don't know. Seems that true remorse would involve making amends somehow, and asking forgiveness. Coming to me, contrite, acknowledging the hurt he caused.

I'm NOT holding out for that, mind you....just thinking through where the line is between forgiveness and "letting go of the grudge."

Maybe, as in RiverTam's case, it will come with time...but at least I'm moving along the path, in the right direction.

This is all just stuff I'm working through in my own mind...trying to find some peace.

From a practical perspective, at some point I do need to consider what I want my future relationship to WH to look like. It would be much easier if I got to RiverTam's place. For now, I'm just living today...but I need to acknowledge these little niggling thoughts in the back of my mind.

Anyway.....

Apparently WH was upset that the boys were up late (10:30) the other night when we were prepping for the carpet install yesterday. He told DS11 that it wasn't his responsibility to help me with that kind of stuff. DS11 objected, telling WH that someone needed to help out. I think DS11 even said something about how he (DS11) is the man of the house (which was what I told him as we were moving the furniture and cleaning the old carpet mess).

It's really silly...this kind of stuff happens, and being up late one night is certainly not the end of the world. I think it was good for the boys to be involved in that work...it is their room, after all. If WH had been here, we probably would have sent them off to watch TV while we did all the work.

I suspect that WH lashed out because he was feeling guilty, or maybe even annoyed that I am able to do this stuff alone: pick out carpet, move everything out of the room, remove the old carpet......all without him.

If he was all okay with all of this, I would think that he would also be proud of the boys for being such a big help, how responsible they were, how well they pitched in...and would have congratulated them for it. Even if it meant that they got to bed late, and were tired the next day. As DS11 said to me while were were carrying out the nasty old carpet, "keep your eye on the prize."

I know I was proud!

I'm not sure why I am bothered by WH's opinion about this...maybe I'm afraid that he'll use it against me to get custody or something. Maybe I'm sensitive to his opinion about me as a mother...maybe I don't trust myself as much as I should.

I will try to focus on the fact that WH's "issues" with this are about him, not me.

Sound right?

(Hi Still. How are you?)

Hi LS...

I suspect that WH lashed out because he was feeling guilty, or maybe even annoyed that I am able to do this stuff alone: pick out carpet, move everything out of the room, remove the old carpet......all without him.
___________________

sounds right to me.
That is what i was thinking even before i read the rest of your post....most of the time when people say something defensive they are coming from a place of doubt in themselves.
I bet your WH is feeling like a failure....seeing you take control and do things for yourself that were once his responsibility.

your WH has a lot to feel ashamed of yet he wants to maintain some self-respect.
He must have a lot of remorse and doubt about himself but he hasn't figured it all out yet so he kinda turns it on you by making that comment about the boys not needing to be up late doing stuff like that.

Try not to take his comments personally.

Morning LilSis,

You're really up early this morning. It's really amazing how we are at the same place in all of this. My WH has not shed any tears, at least that I have seen. He may have, he used to show some emotion to me. He has told me he is sorry early on that he hurt me. Never sorry about the affair.

I agree that I will have to see remorse and have him make ammends somehow. I don't think I'll ever see it either. I don't think I'm near letting go of the grudge yet. I know it will come someday I'm just not there yet. In my mind I think as long as he is with this particular MOW it won't happen. But who knows?

I'm not going to let this interphere with my healing of myself.

I'll have to check out Rivertams thread because I am not familar with it at all.

I also think of what type of realationship I will have with WH. Right now he is not the type of person I would consider having as a friend. Friends don't do what he has done to each other. And i definately don't want much to do with him while he is with her.

About the boys being up late the first thought that came to my mind was that he was going to try to "use" it against you also. The seems to be in the thought mode he is in currently.

I am doing well, I like me now. I am not perfect and never will be. I still let WH get under my skin, that is my next step in my process. Not to allow myself to let him do this to me. As BR says it my choice when I let this happen.

Still

I wouldn't think too much on anything your WH said about your son being up late. It's really no big deal. They have a regular schedule that you stick with, so it's just one night. No biggie.

About remorse. I haven't really seen any yet either, Sis. I think it takes a while for this to all get through to the WS. Sometimes, I don't think they ever get it. Maybe it has something to do with a person's capacity for empathy. Some people FEEL for others, even strangers. I know I do. Some people just don't look beyond THEIR world. Maybe it has to do with their personal set of morals. I see people who commit these acts against their spouse as morally bankrupt, at the time. Some people may remain that way, lowering their own standards. I don't really know. I just know that I may never see true remorse, at least in how I define it. I don't know if that's okay with me or not.

I don't know if a marriage can really heal without it.

Hi Still:
I tend to let WH get under my skin only at kid drop-off time. It's sort of that weird transition time when the kids have been gone and I'm trying to re-connect with them. I feel resentful for having to "reconnect" with my own children and for not being together as a family, and it's "all his fault!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The rest of the time, I am able to pretty much live my own life...when I think of WH, it's with some anger, mostly sadness and regretfulness of the waste, the loss.

I agree...as long as he is with RT it is like a slap in the face, and there is certainly no true remorse or acknowledgment of the depth of hurt he caused. But it IS the way it is now...so to take care of myself, I just stay away. Stay dark. For ME.

You nailed it, too: WH has apologized for hurting me...but NEVER for the affair. His "only regret" is that he didn't end our marriage before the affair started.

Which again...says more about him than me.

I REALLY REALLY hope that there's nothing there he can use against me. Stacked up against his behavior, his lack of involvement in their lives, I guess it's not much, but still....I don't take anything for granted.

Thanks, SL. It's good to have that perspective. And it's very courageous of you to acknowledge this...for still and I...and for yourself, maybe, too?

It's a tough issue, and a painful one. I still think of PWC as foggy, though, so I wouldn't categorize him just yet.

I suppose we will all deal with this in our own way, in our own time. But as long as we are getting healthier OURSELVES, the more likely we are to find PEACE with it all....regardless of where our F/WH's end up.

I'm confident of THAT. (Wow...I don't know how long it has been since I have said that I am confident of anything...)

And BTW, still...I'm still grudgey. But my episodes of grudginess are less frequent and less intense.

I'm not all doom and gloom about my marriage. I hope it will continue to get better, but I'm not banking on that for my happiness. I'm working on ME, letting go.

I got an apology for 'hurting me' too, but not for damaging our marriage almost beyond repair with infidelities. Many people have hurt me in my life, and have asked for forgiveness. Some have hurt me and have not asked for forgiveness, so I havent' really forgiven, but he grudge is gone. In PWC's case, it will be quite a long time before I could forgive. I have dropped the grudge almost completely. The books I have read, and the guidance I have gotten here are helping beyond words.

I feel a bit more peaceful every day. I feel happy inside. I'm smiling and laughing.

I have a GF that complains a lot over being ill. It used to bother me immensely, even up to a few weeks ago. Now, I just tell her that she is going to be fine, after the meds take over, or time goes by, or the malady takes it's course. I don't coddle her, but she deserves to be heard. My sister was always like that too, complaining over some malady. It got to the point that I would just ignore her or roll my eyes, thinking "Oh, lord, something ELSE is wrong with poor sister". That's just not very nice.

I'm mending my ways. I'm finding that I am more caring, truly caring. Giving. I hope to improve as the years go by. I'm giving where I want to. No martydom here. I'm giving where I know I really want to, not for some net return. It's a selfish endeavor, really. I feel good when I give without WANTING. When I don't feel like giving, I don't, because that just builds resentment.

Oh, geez, I can go on.

Sis,

Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking of you, watching, and learning from your journey. The dialogue between you and schoolbus is extremely helpful.

Somehow, I've forgiven my WH. The only remorse he has shown is for hurting me...not for the affair itself. He did say the affair was a mistake but that "she" was not. I think I know what he meant by that, as confusing as that sounds.

I think I was able to forgive him because of the core that schoolbus talks about. I've known this man for 16 years now, and I know this isn't "him" if you know what I mean.

It is why I am so confident that there will be a day that he will want to return. I don't know if Recover is possible for us anymore, but I know we will get to a place where we will discuss this and work it out....not necessarily the M, but "us".

I truly forgive WH. He messed up. He went against his own core. He will get back to that core at some point and then his own personal recovery will hopefully begin. If not, then I will feel badly for him. He was a good man once.

DD14 was talking with me the other day. I think we were talking about my friend M and how DD14 thought she was uncomfortable at the picnic held by WH/Bab's employer. M's husband also works there. I tried to explain to her what M could be going through. She and her husband were mutual friends of ours....actually, WH's friends first because he met R through work and then we got together as families. M expressed her discomfort with Bab's/WH with me the other day when we had lunch. As I've always known, this doesn't effect just my little family, it has a ripple effect.

Anyway, DD14 was saying the WH was trying really hard to get R & M to like Bab's. R has known Bab's for a long time through work and has never liked her, so I don't think he is going to start now.

DD14 said that it seems like WH is trying really hard to get everyone to like him again. She feels that he is looked down on now and that he is aware of it. She said that people respected him before, especially at work, and now they just tolerate him.

It's a slow process, Sis. I see it working in my WH and am doing my best to leave it to him. I still have those urges to go to him and offer to carry part of the load. But I can't, this is his. The only way he can truly learn about himself is for him to do it on his own.

I believe they will find their cores again. Maybe not on the timeline we like, but one day they will get there.

Sorry, if I TJ'd.

Fox

I suspect that WH lashed out because it's another chink in the hard-core fantasy that if WH moves out, Nothing Will Change For The Kids.

Nothing busts up FantasyLand like hearing that *an eleven-year-old* now has to step up and be the man of the house because dear ol' dad left to shag some skank.

Why, nothing at all was supposed to change for the kids! LilSis, how dare you bust up a fantasy that way!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

I mean, for Pete's sake - what on earth did WH *THINK* was going to happen when he left???

I fully realize that it's not the MB way, but Sis, did you ever once unload a heaping helping of full-fledged Plan FU on this guy? (And I don't mean the night you went off on RT, though you've got my respect for that!)

Again, I know it's not part of the plan, but some people do NOT respond to anything else - partly because they can tell themselves that if you are too tolerant and too understanding and too "nice", that means you aren't really affected and don't really care, and since you don't care it doesn't matter what he does.

Some WS are just oblivious to anything else.

I'm thinking that he's one of them.
Mulan

he didn't lash out because LS is doing his work...

he lashed out because his 11 year old son was stepping up and shouldering HIS responsibilities. He looked bad. Really bad.

I'd like to see him use that as a custody argument!

WS: Judge, LilSis allowed my children to help her with the responsibilities I've dodged!

Judge: Oh yes, Mean Mean LilSis for teaching her children responsibility, contributing to the family, and the value of work - such self-esteem lessons are signs of abuse!

I'm hope that's how a judge would see it. But I swear....I take nothing for granted.

I think I have done what amounted to a Plan FU in the past. Now, I'm content to just let him be. This is something so deep that he can only get himself out of it, and only with God's help.

Fox, I appreciate hearing your take on it. I think you have more confidence in your WH than I do in mine. I fully believe in the "good man," too. However, the more I consider his FOO issues, and the enabling that's going on now...I don't see him as being in an environment that fosters growth of any kind. In fact, it probably just retards any growth. Stunts it. He's truly reliving his adolescence, in every way, and his parents have no expectation that he do anything differently. He's been living in their house for well over a year. And he's 38.

(As an aside, I've wondered what it is that THEY (ILs) are getting out of this little arrangment. After this length of time, shouldn't they be getting sick of him living under their roof, coming and going, doing his laundry, collecting his mail? They MUST get something out of it...some kind of gratification...because it is getting to the point of being unnatural in addition to unhealthy.)

The good man is there, but he's being strangled to death, and it would take a heck of a lot to resuscitate him. I couldn't help him before. And it seems that everyone else has given up, and thinks this is who he IS now. And that we should all just get used to it. That we shouldn't EXPECT anything better from him. I'm almost there, too, unfortunately, which bothers me, because I've always been one to believe that good triumphs over evil.

And good may be triumphing, I just can't really see it. Or maybe "good" looks different that what I would expect. Who knows? I will continue to remember the "good man," and talk about HIM to the boys. Let what IS just fall away.