Hey, SIS...we're talkin 'bout BOB on SL's thread!!!!!

Are you blushin' yet?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sis,

One of the things I learned about forgiving was that when I was truly done with the process, when it was really really over - the forgiving that is, when it was fully given over to the other person - I was the one who was healed.

I cannot say that the other person gained anything at all. In the more serious cases in my life, for example, forgiving the rapists, I know they received

NOTHING

because they do not, to this day, know of my forgiveness.

Therefore I know they received nothing.

I received the only benefit of the gift of forgiveness.

They show no remorse.
They never apologized.
They never publicly admitted their crimes.
They carry, in their cores, their shameful knowledge of their own depth of evil.

Yet, I forgive them. Truly and completely.

I can tell you of the moment of my release from their sins.

It was as though the world was given back its color. Sound came alive again, and I felt the wind hit my cheeks. I was suddenly able to hear people inside the house - I was outside. I smelled the air, it was the Colorado mountain fall air blowing against my cheeks and the sunshine was bright in the sky. I could feel the warmth of it, the freshness, as though I was reborn. It was as though the world became a new place, alive again with color and sound - from a dark, silence that had plagued me for years although I had been completely unaware of it.

I was released from their sins, because I had released them.


This one step in my life stopped so many things: the nightmares, the praying - no, begging - to God to make me forget the rapes, the constant sadness, the anger and raging, the sudden bursts of crying for "no reason", and all the rest.

It all just


stopped.

And the triggers, the memories, all of it, became something I could manage. I could talk about the rapes as though they were an "event" in my life, and not "MY LIFE" ongoing.

This didn't take place in a moment, no. It was a process. But that final realization of purposeful forgiveness, to understand that MY release, MY peace, MY life, and MY future really depended on me realizing that there was to be

no remorse from them
no closure for me
no apology from them
no justice for me
no erasing the event
no going back

And that there had to be an understanding of their weaknesses, their stupidity (yes, stupidity!), their loss of self, the fact that they have to live with themselves, and finally, I understood and saw that they really are

the very people considered "lost" to God.

And in this context, is where I finally understood forgiveness.

They were just so pathetic. In forgiving, it was in that moment that as a human it was my job

to give one miracle - forgiveness - to them -

those who temporarily had less,

from me, who temporarily had more.


I could not believe that, in the mental state that I was in, I finally could see that:

I HAD MORE.

And I continue to have more. Because, in their core, they have NEVER added.

Poor, wretched lives they have led, no?

How could I not pity them?
How could I not hope that they find peace?
How then, could I not release them their transgressions against me, and set them on their way to wander in this world,

still lost,

but at least with one less burden from me?

And in the end, I, with one less burden, one less connection, to someone who hurt me, killed a part of my soul - I do not want to maintain that connection.

I have freed myself of that connection. I forgave them.

They are no longer a part of me. I hope they find peace. I know, however, they are unfortunately still lost.

In Al-Anon, I learned that forgiveness requires the three Rs.

Responsibility, Remorse, and Reparation.

With my husband, I let go of the grudge...no longer gave his behavior power to harm me....

I let it go, there was no more anger and grudges.

That was when he wanted to come...dang it...only after I was at peace...and then of course....he wanted forgiveness...

and he was slow in coming to the three Rs. He had responsibilty down, and even the reparation part was alright...but the remorse took longer...

And while he was bumbling around going through withdrawal and doing his own work, it certainly reopened wounds, and I "took" back alot of grudges.

Mostly I was ticked off that I had achieved peace and THEN he decided to come back and disturb my world again!

But we made it through early recovery...and I did forgive him. The three Rs are still there today.

My personal opinion...my personal experience...is that letting go of a grudge and forgiveness are really different things.

From a Catholic perspective....the same is true.

We know that God will forgive ALL of our sins...but we have to .... have those 3 Rs, and ASK God in confession.

God doesn't forgive everyone....just those that ask, taking responsiblity for their behavior, being truely remorseful, and making reparation.

I think much of this is semantics...??

We've gone down the tangent of "what is forgiveness" before on one of my threads, and fierce disagreements ensued.

When really, I think we are saying much the same thing:

There's this letting go, this release, and then finding of peace WITHOUT remorse. It's seeing the perpetrator (for lack of a better word at 6 am) as a wounded, lost, even pathetic soul.

SB calls this experience forgiveness. BR calls it "letting go of the grudge." But what I "hear" in both descriptions is something very similar. Am I correct?

SOMETHING happens. SOMETHING is possible....even without any remorse. This SOMETHING is healthy.

Whatever that SOMETHING is, I believe I am moving toward it.

One thing that hasn't been discussed, however, is the feasibility of a relationship with someone who has been SOMETHINGed (let go, forgiven), and who is not remorseful.

This is what I anticipate having to work out with WH. I'll get to the SOMETHING stage at some point. WH may never get to the point of the 3 Rs. So what does our relationship look like? How do we relate to one another without:
a. me sacrificing my integrity
b. giving the kids a mixed message
c. causing the kids stress and anxiety every time WH and I need to both be present at something (concerts, etc.)

I don't know if this makes sense.

IC helped me think about it in terms of a continuum (I love continuums). On one end is me wanting to beat WH over the head with my shoe every time I see him. On the other end is pasting a smiling mask over my face and pretending that everything is hunky dory.

Part way up from the shoe-beating end is being dark--where I am now. At some point, for the sake of the boys, I will have to move further up on that continuum....but I have NO IDEA what "further up" looks like. What lies between DARK and the fake, smiling mask?

I REALLY don't know if what I'm saying makes any sense to anyone.

SB....your story is so full of grace. I am in awe. Thank you for sharing it with me.

Sis ~ a long time ago I gave up arguing with people about what to call it.

There wss a period of a few months when I had really let go of my anger at my husband, and we simply coparented our children in a very peaceful manner. Well...not always so peaceful, because I still had some boundaries to defend...such as exposure of my boys to the OW. But for the most part...it was not a fake mask pretending that everything was ok. (the pretending part is probably part of your continuum - faking it til you make it)

*I* was OK. I didn't have to pretend that part at all.

Letting go in every facet of the meaning will help you allow your husband his choices without the muck getting all over your own peace and serenity.

Indifference.

You are still expecting him to do something for you - apoligize/show remorse/beg for forgiveness/adopt your views and opinions/change/grovel/tell you he ruined everybodies including his life - or whatever it is you think/feel you are "owed". When you stop doing that you will hopefully be able to have a business relationship with him and co-parent. Hopefully you will become as mkeverydayct said - become indifferent - and only be concerned or care about your and the kids lives.

I've heard the opposite of Love is Indifference. If you are indifferent, is that last speck of hope for Recovery gone?

Fox

Hi MEDC. Indifference sounds great, and yes, it fits...but as a practical matter, how is that translated into behavior?

Do you see the distinction I am trying to make?

There is emotion, and then there is behavior. I would like my emotion and my behavior to be consistent. Right now, I still have enough anger and resentment that dark works FOR ME. It is MY boundary that helps me take care of myself. Darkness have given me the time and space and distance that has allowed me to do significant healing and growth.

As the anger and resentment begins to fade and is beginning to be replaced by just sadness, regret, and pity, then I won't need to be dark FOR ME. I won't need that kind of strict boundary forever.

I'm just trying to envision what my new boundaries might be. I will still need boundaries, because WH hasn't met the 3 Rs, but the boundary doesn't have to be so extreme. BR mentioned "peaceful coparenting" with boundaries related to OW.

I won't be able to enforce a boundary with regard to RT after the D is final. WH will be able to do whatever he wants.

At the same time, this is not necessarily an issue for TODAY. I'm not looking for an answer right now. Much of it will come, and I'll have to continue to work through it. But it's worth thinking about, and learning from others who have been down this road.

Never.

Love is an action. Love is a choice. Love is what you do.

You can feel indifferent and CHOOSE to Love.

Feelings are NOT the bases for decisions. Feelings can change faster than the weather...and are not a guide for decision making.

While feelings are certainly something that can factor into a decision...feelings should not be the sole reason one makes a choice.

Really good point, fox.

Indifference is not the right word. It's more like a mixture of sadness, regret, pity, loss, wastefulness, sorrow. That's probably where I will end up eventually. I don't know what you'd call that.

Indifference would be not caring a lick. And frankly, I have a hard time thinking about anyone I feel indifferent about. If you have compassion for anyone--simply because they are a human being--you aren't indifferent. I wouldn't say I'm "indifferent" to the checkout person at the grocery store, for example, even though I don't know him/her. I might be annoyed if he/she is slow, or feel good if he/she is friendly.

People are people. There's always SOME kind of emotional reaction you have to people with whom you interact.

Today is today, and I'm not in a hurry to get anything nailed down.

Notashoped: I'm not expecting him to do ANYTHING. That's the point. I don't expect that he WILL come to me out of contrition. Therein lies my question...since he's not likely to do anything to try to repair the damage he inflicted on me, or even acknowledge what he's done, what will be the dynamics of our future relationship?

But of COURSE, I would HOPE that he would come to me and ask forgiveness! I have self-worth, for God's sake, and we have children together. There is a rift between us that can never be fully healed until he does.

And I don't relish the thought of living with this unhealed rift my whole life. We are bonded together forever in many ways. A divorce decree won't change history. To never resolve the hurt between us leaves that an open wound. No matter how much peace I come to in myself, that relationship will be destroyed.

And you are right. I DO think I am owed that. He made a commitment to me, and he broke it. He did me great harm. I happen to believe that it is morally WRONG to break a promise and hurt someone--anyone!--and not take responsibility for doing so.

But whether he chooses to take responsibility...that's on him. He has to live with his choice...and so do I, and so do the boys. That's what I'm exploring here...how do *I* want to live and behave in light of the choice that he's made to not take responsibility for the hurt he's caused?

It apprears that I completely disagree with you, notashoped.

I think this is wrong. Love is the things you mentioned, BUT it is also a feeling/emotion.

Lilsis...for me how that translates into action is I really don't take notice of my ex any more...unless it impacts my child. She can mak a mess of her life and my action is...nothing.
She can get mad at me and my reaction is less than if it was a total stranger...because I actually care what the stranger might think.
The way it translates into action for me is that I just go on with my day as though she doesn't exist...until she has to...and then I am business like in my apporoach to everything. If it benefits my son, I will most likely agree to it...if not...well, don't ask.
I could see her walking down the street with another man or men right now and it wouldn't faze me.
It seems cold... I know...but that is the point of indifference IMO.

Aaaaah but the question was...if indifference is the opposite of love, is recovery impossible?

I choose to love my husband so I do things that meet his emotional needs. I don't do what I feel like doing, I do what I know he feels like receiving.

When I choose to meet his needs in the ways he likes me to meet them....He Feels the emotion of love.

The fallacy of assuming that feelings must be there first, or that feelings justify behavior is why our spouses cheated in the first place.

Honey, I know we have been married (Action of Love) for 10 years, but I didn't FEEL love, so, our relationship is over, I've found someone to FEEL Love with...

And we all know...love feelings come and go...Love as a feeling is NOT permanent, it is NOT consistent and "true" and all that hogwash we get fed in the media.

Love is a choice, followed through by an action (need meeting), which results in a feeling. Feelings are the LAST part of the equation - and its the crazy idea that the FEELING comes first that has so many relationships derailed.

When my husband and I reconciled... neither of us FELT like it.

We made a deliberate decision to recover our marriage.

Then we took the actions consistent with that decision.

Then we felt love.

I guess a better way to put it - Love Feelings are a Byproduct, not Causality.

I don't know....my brain is fried...I'm probably babbling now...

Why did you make this choice? Why was it right for you?

Was it out of obligation, religious beliefs, "truths" from your FOO, a belief that both parents in the home is the ONLY choice when you have children?

Or was it because you still felt something for your WH and wanted a chance to build a wonderful life with him because of HIM and those other things were added influences?

Sorry, Sis...I think we may be off thread a little here, I don't even remember what your original post was. I'll have to go look.

Fox

Sis,
I think that's where acceptance comes in to play. Your relationship moving forward with WH will be based on accepting him for who he is today and understanding that the way you interact with him currently, may very well be the way it will be if he does not come to you and ask to make amends. You can let go of the grudge without his help or without him coming to you to ask for forgiveness. I think the key is to realize that you have the power to let go of the grudge and to accept reality for what it is. He may never initiate healing the wound. So what does that mean? You can choose to free yourself of the pain he caused by letting go of the grudge and by accepting that who he is today is his choice. You can also decide how much interaction you want to have with him. You may find over time, that it is best to protect yourself and only interact with him when it is necessary, when there is something kid related.
To this day, my ex-wh hasn't made amends or any attempt to make amends.... However, I have let go of the grudge, his actions in the past have no power over me. You get to decide what type of relationship you have moving forward. Even if he never attempts to make amends, you still have the choice to let go of the grudge..and lead a peaceful life without the pain and turmoil brought on by his decisions.

And this is a very real possibility. That is why infidelity causes so much damage and destruction, and leaves behind so many casualties, especially when the WS refuses to take responsibility for their actions. Sometimes relationships are destroyed by it, as sad as it may be sometimes irreparable damage is done...especially when the perpetrator does not seek forgiveness or attempts to make amends. That is not to say that you can't let go of the grudge, however, the relationship may be forever changed. I think the answers will come to you in time.

I chose it because I believed that my children were far better off emotionally, physically, financially with their father IN their lives daily, than to be shuffled between 2 parental homes.

Because one day, right after my husband told me that he would do whatever it took to make things right...my son threw his arms around me and sobbed his heart out begging me to let papa come home.

Because my children did not CHOOSE to be brought into the world. My choices, my actions, led to their existance...and thereofore....their welfare is MY obligation, and so, not only did I have an obligation to turn over EVERY rock to repair my marriage - but I was also obligated to make sure that it wasn't a fake phoney marriage with a pair of martyrs simply putting up with each other "for the children".

That meant, I had to reconcile...AND be happy.

I *grieved* for a long time after I took my husband back.

I had alot of pity parties and alot of sadness.

But I dealt with the feelings, worked through the grief, with a darn good counselor and choose to do what my husband needed from me even when I didn't feel like it. My husband choose to do what I needed from him even when he didn't feel like it.

One day we woke up and found out that we liked it each other...and one day....we could say I love you - and meant it.

This IS HOW MB WORKS.

Your actions result in love feelings from your spouse! When you both reciprocate you MAKE LOVE - literally! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Recovery is hard hard work.

Actions first, feelings later.

Thats why actions matter far more than how you feel about it.

Protecting your feelings, protecting your love for your spouse is so so so important, because it makes it easier to choose to do the hard work of recovery. But it doesn't mean its impossible.

Sis,

In my case, I had to live with one of the rapists - he was a relative.

I had to look at him every single day.

That was trauma.

I won't go into the fear, etc.

But I did, and still do, have to deal with that person on occasion, because he remains "family".

I have never told another person within my family (besides my husband) of what happened to me over those years. My H knows because he had a need to know. To bring this into the light now would serve no useful purpose - my family of origin is

messy

to say the least.

There is no need to add to it or stir it more.

And for me, I am free of it at this point. It would hurt only one person - my mom - and at 80 years old she could not bear this news. Not with all of the rest that has happened.

But here's what I did:

Once I realized that I had to live with it, I acted "as if".

As if it was okay.
As if it was over.
As if I could make it.
As if he was just another man.
As if things did not bother me.

That got me through the daily grind. As if.....it was a mantra.

Soon, it became

It is.


And inside, I worked on forgiving. Finding that peaceful place.

Like you are, right now.

So IF you have to face him, act "as if" you are strong. As if you are not bothered. As if things were perfectly fine for you.

And those things will work their way into your reality.

That's what I did.

JMHO, and experience.

A life lived, once in h e l l.

SB

So much of what I'm hearing...from everyone, in different ways...is that it takes time, but I can get there, and I need to keep doing the work. I think I'm headed in the right direction. I deeply appreciate the guidance on this road.

I need to keep myself in a good spot. I need to continue to love myself and continue to take care of myself. I need to be my best self.

It's scary to look too far ahead.

We went up north to meet my sister and niece while my niece played in a soccer tournament. WH and the boys and I always took a trip up north this time of year. We took LOTS of trips up north. What struck me this time was all the sadness, and those memories...even the ones pre-A, that now feel tarnished.

It's as if even the "true" memories of my DH are overshadowed, or jaded somehow, by the reality of WH who is NOW. I felt so sad. So sad for the DH who is lost, so sad for the innocent old LS who is lost, now, too. So sad that I will never again get to drive past the old farmhouse that we admired together without wanting to share that with DH; that I'll never drive through such and such small town without wanting to remember with DH how we stopped at some diner when DS11 was a pre-schooler and said something hilarious.

All these memories that can no longer be shared with the one person who experienced them the same way that I did.

And worse, wondering if he recounts those same memories to RT now, as if she has a right to them, somehow, because they are together.

I wonder if anything is sacred. Probably not. Sigh.

Maybe it all relates to the ponderings I did here last week...what kind of relationship we will have...I don't even know WHO he is.

And head's up...in case I am more edgy or frightened that usual: I have court again on Thursday afternoon...the last settlement conference before we will have to go to trial, which is already scheduled for Oct. 8. I know it will be okay, but I am apprehensive. And the anxiety will build over the week.

I'm waaaay to tired to be posting...I could get loopy, or worse, drippy. I need to put the emotions away for a while.

Good news is...my mom went along on the trip, and SHE said that I seemed so much better! My MOM!!! Who always finds fault...

I gotta go to bed.