LS:

What notashoped posted?

EEEKKK! That sounds like something right out of the courthouse "can't we all get along? workbook." Sure, we can get along, and you two have been. It ain't happy for WH, that's all. And I do not BELIEVE that LilSis's method of communicating has any bearing on the happiness of the children and the quality of thier lives. WH's decision to LEAVE is WHY the boys are in this position.

Yes, we can all live in happy divorce land now.

Just what WH wants. And BTW, THEY are STILL MARRIED.

Silent was right, his FIRST line was a DEMAND. "LilSis, Please Do it MY WAY." Please help relieve my guilt.

Your method of communicating WORKS for you. And seemingly, until NOW, for him. So, stay with it. "Please mail the info to me." is all you need.

What he is buying the boys for Christmas, is His Choice. And what you are buying, is your choice. And if you both happen to buy the same thing, then so be it. The tainted one can stay at the new RT cave.

When LilSis gets an email, or a letter, or SOMETHING from WH, apologizing for not intervening in your courtcase, for deciding that RT was better instead of working on his marriage, for walking away and blowing up the M, for just allowing ALL the daily indignities that WH visited on LilSis thru all this, and showing a shred of remorse, then maybe, just maybe, LilSis can decide to work with WH. She may not even have to get ALL of those things, just some remorse for SOME of them, the arrest and its aftermath in particular, then she may decide to remove herself from this Plan B.

There is a poster, on the divorced forum, who gets these emails from his exW, who is still wayward, Demanding that he interact with her. To be his buddy, "Sure, we're divorced, but can't we get along? He just says "Why? You rejected me, I discuss kids schedules and items of importance, otherwise, I have NOTHING to say to you. It KILLS her. So be it. Her CHOICE. Just like LilSis's WH, HE made this choice. LilSis is DOING what she needs to do to protect herself.

When she feels that she is well enough protected, she can open or close her life as needed to WH. The Boys relationship is not affected AT ALL because LilSis decides to have a filter in place before recieving communications from this scoundrel.

Bolonga Sandwiches.

LG

ETA: Your post requesting suggestion came in before I posted the above.

Good morning, Sis. I'm glad to see you looking so strong.

What was your original timeline for Plan B? Were you going to hold out all the way through the divorce? If so, are you divorced, "basically" divorced, married, kinda married, etc?

Personally, Sis, I think it's too soon to come out of the darkness. I can't say that for sure since I don't REALLY know you. It's ultimately your call.

Are you truly over this? Can he still hurt you? If he gets nasty in his emails to you, how far will that set you back?

Until you are truly done with WH (STBX) and his actions and words do not effect you so deeply, I think darkness is still the answer.

On the other hand, what is the GAIN to you or your boys if you come out of the darkness? Is there significant gain to outweigh the risks?

Again, your call. You know best how Plan B has effected your boys and whether by continuing it will cause harm. It may be the best - when they see their dad you mother beginning to communicate again - will that foster false hope?

Fox

ETA: Yeah, what lousygolfer said! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, this is the "now that we're divorced, can't we be friends so that life will be easier and more comfortable for me and I can feel good about nuking our family?" speech. Expect more to come.

Don't fall for it, Sis.


Exactly. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mulan

I'm not thinking that totally coming out of Plan B would be a good idea. I'm still deeply hurt.

But basic info about pick ups/drop offs...simple logistics...that can't be too dangerous, could it? or could it?

Especially if I am very vigilant, and the minute he starts to slip into a-hole mode, it's right back to the intermediary.

???

So am I hearing general support for this type of communication ONLY:

I couldn't disagree more. This is exactly the kind of mindset that has so many people convinced that divorce isn't really such a big deal and it's really normal and okay and makes people happy.

So, are you saying above that *Sis* is the one refusing to "co-parent?" Uh, Sis's WXH made the choice to "refuse to co-parent" when he dumped his children's mother for a ho and then sat on his [censored] when said ho got said children's mother thrown in jail.

Co-parenting my big ********.


No, abandoning your family creates conflict and stress for the kids.


Actually, maintaining no contact will prevent contact with toxic, selfish, destructive people and will PROTECT the kids from such people. Is that petty and childish?


Dad will say he wants to co-operate so he can feel good about nuking his family. The kids will see that wives and mothers are not disposable and that their own mother will not just politely step aside for a new one as if she WERE disposable and replaceable.


Why do you think Sis should cooperate with a couple of marital terrorists? Why is being nice and accomodating to such people "taking the high road?"

All you are saying, notashoped, is the same tired old argument of being "nice" to terrorists so they don't have to feel bad about what they've done and won't have to suffer any consequences - but you don't seem concerned at all about the massive consequences Sis and her children have already had to face, NONE OF IT THEIR DOING.

But you want them to take the fall for the terrorists.

You sound like one of those useless "marriage counselors" whose only goal is to stop conflict - not to save the marriage. They urge the betrayed spouse to appease and be nice to the terrorist in the name of stopping conflict and "taking the high road," when all this does is reward the terrorists for their actions and make the betrayed eat the sh*t sandwich of appeasement every single day.

You seem to think it sends a "good" message to the kids. All it does is teach the kids that if dad feels like dumping their mother and replacing her with somebody else, this is normal and healthy and they should just accept this and not make a fuss about it - and if they can't accept it and be happy about it, there's something wrong with THEM instead of something wrong with the terrorists.

It's no wonder our culture has such idiotic ideas about marriage and divorce.


This is far more courtesy than they deserve. They should be quite grateful to get this much.
Mulan

How do you stop it from turning bad? When it turns bad, it's too late - you are already hurt again. - take a step backwards, please.



I think it is more harmful to you and creates more frustration between the two of you to go through the intermediary, then just bettween the two of you, then have to train him to use the intermediary again, then he'll be nice so you can just do it between the two of you again, then he's a jerk and it's back to the intermediary....... KWIM?

I agree with that response - through your intermediary. Don't give him an opening - he'll take it - and it won't stop there.

Fox

LilSis:

GO read over Bugs thread. She thought she could drop the darkness a little bit. Sort of Plan Bugs. She WASN'T ready.

There is NO putting "just a toe" in this. You are either IN or OUT. SD has this issue, because he isn't ALL DARK. But he made that choice.

Waywards want it all. It would start simple, and then, when you least expect it, BOOM! Venom or A-holeness over something really unimportant.

Also, LilSis, you CAN decide at anytime that you can do it anyway you want. Complete sunshine, no darkness at all. That's a CHOICE. You may get hurt early in that period, and then the process will just become "life". Your CHOICE. In or Out. And over time, you can slip down from OUT to IN. Still your choice. That might take you 5 months to get there, or 5 years.

It's what works for YOU. Not for WH.

LG

I tend to agree with Fox about this. The going back and forth b/t the intermediary will only give him more amunition about how "unstable" you are, blah, blah, blah.

Also, before you do dismiss the intermediary, make sure you can handle anything in regards to him. Right now, he wants so bad to have a honeymoon period....the divorce is basically done, he has the new house, he no longer has to "hide" his relationship with RT, his kids have met her...now, if he could just get you on board...

Dealing with him directly, at some point, will also mean dealing with RT. Not necessarily directly with RT, but in a round about way...hearing more about their life, their plans, etc. Be VERY prepared for that before changing the status quo right now.

As for you having NC with him creating friction for your boys...I'm not so sure about that. You aren't talking negatively about him to them...you aren't grilling them when they walk in after visiting him...you aren't trying to make them feel guilty for having a relationship with him...these are the things that cause friction.

Boy, where is Schoolbus when you need her? Are you lurking SB?

I call BS. Why does HE get to decide when it's time to end your Plan B? Uh-uh, even if you did decide to do this, I don't think you're ready yet Sis. It's still too raw for you. An email is an "informal" communication. How does he know you even received it? If it were me, I wouldn't even respond. He knows the rules.

Stay dark for you. I would even drop the "please".


There is an arrogance or petulance in this statement to me. Stay dark.

...oops I forgot about the reimbursement check.

If you HAVE to respond, I'd still let your intermediary send instructions re forwarding your snail mail.

What about teaching the kids to deal with adversity ? Or is teaching them to hide and hold grudges and avoidance better ?

I will hope that Lilsis gets advise and guidance from divorced poeple with kids who actually have experience with this and gives those opinions as much weight as pie in the sky moralistic wishes/demands and me first attitudes. IMO the kids needs should take priority over personal feelings and the "it's not right so I refuse to deal with life's realities".

The longer she stays dark, the longer her recovery is going to take and the more the kids are going to lose respect for her. She's the adult they look up to. IMO she needs to stand tall and be adult. Hiding in the dark isn't what adults do - it's what a burned by their first love teenager does while pouting and doubting themselves. I'm not talking buddy buddy ignore all that has happened. Unemotional business only and for/about the kids only. As an adult she can stop the conversation any time she wants by hanging up the phone or whatever.

IMO some of this advise is acting like and inferring he is in control and the decision maker. He isn't unless given such. She stands tall and firm and matter of factly responds and makes decisions. Those decisions require no explanations. They aren't owed. She makes them and that's all there is to it. She can do it and I think will - it's just a matter of when. The longer she waits the longer getting to at least some semblance of "normalcy/stability" for the kids that like it or not IS the reality and WILL BE for at least 10 years can proceed.

There will be some hurtful things said at times and no amount of waiting is going to change that. Advise that it won't hurt so much IMO is wrong - it will for a while and then she will get to a point that she doesn't care so it won't affect her. That stage can't be avoided IMHO - she and all divorced people go thru it - like Bugs is. Delaying it IMO isn't going to soften it or make her better able to deal with it.


JMO

Okay, Notashoped...i would fit that description.

You are wrong about her kids losing respect for her for being dark. From first hand experience, it is exactly the opposite.
The kids are not being negatively impacted by Lilsis not speaking with her ex husband. In fact, since there is a lot of reason for tension between them, I would venture to say that the kids are actually benefiting from the lack of interactions since some of those would obviously lead to tension.
Lilsis should come out of Plan B when she is able to do so comfortably...not when her ex h suggests it is time.
Lilsis is not hiding...she is right where she is supposed to be. The kids are learning how to deal with adversity ... and how to protect themselves as well.

Perhaps it is just me, but I found the whole tone of this post to be quite rude.

It strikes me that someone who agrees to be an intermediary during a Plan B process, might be a little disturbed to find themselves expected to continue in that role after the divorce.

If I were LilSis' intermediary, I think at this point I'd be feeling a little worried that I was expected to act as contact point between two hostile parties for the rest of our lives. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

So, simply on a practical point, LilSis, I think you have to decide your plan on this. You need to estimate how much contact is absolutely necessary, and where you will draw the line. Where you will draw the line - this is not for your xH to decide unilaterally. In other words, you need to do the hard work of defining your boundaries on this.

But, contrary to what everyone else seems to be saying, I do think your xH has a point. You can't have him phoning LK for the next ten years to make arrangements for the boys. It's not fair on her or her own family.

TA

Do the children even know how communication is being done right now?

I don't believe that it is harmful for the children to learn the lesson that you do not have to keep someone in your life that has done such a terrible wrong.

I also don't believe it is in the children's best interest to open Sis up to a communication line that can cause her MORE harm - her attitude towards the boys could then be effected by her upset towards WH.

Is the current mode of communication broke? If not, maybe it doesn't need to be fixed.

Sis, I trust you to decide what you can and cannot handle. You are getting different opinions and I hope it helps open you up to all the downsides and the upsides of the different choices.

I'm behind you - no matter what you choose.

Fox

ETA: TA has a point about the intermediary. There will come a point where you ARE comfortable. Maybe talk to LK and see where she is at with it. Maybe completely finish the D out, then communicate ONLY by email - no face to face and no phone calls until you are emotionally ready.

I do not think that being dark has hurt her kids but I do think it will affect them if it continues for much longer. The circumstances were different than they are now and will be going forward.

What will the kids see going forward ? Dad in his new house and supposedly happy - at least the kids seem to think he's happy. Mom refusing to talk to/communicate with dad. What will the kids start to think ? It won't take them long - kids are a lot smarter and more observant than we think and I have to say I very much doubt they are thinking much about how dad hurt mom - and if they are it will deminish fast. Most likely this is a timely discussion because I'd put a dollar on the kids asking her directly why she won't talk to dad in the near future.

Are you speaking from first hand experience here? because I can tell you from first hand experience that my son is acutely aware of this. and in fact, his awareness and feelings about this have not diminished...they become more formed with his advancing years.

If the kids do in fact ask why she isn't speaking to him, an honest and direct answer would be appropriate.

I just don't see it that way notashoped...

I think the only one experiencing tension or not really liking the situation is her xH. It reminds him of exactly what he is and who put their boys in this situation in the first place.

LS's sons seem to enjoy their individual relationships with both of their parents. And if that is the case, communication b/t the parents as it has been is working just fine.

LS, have faith in yourself. You are doing a wonderful job with your boys. They are not lacking for anything, given the situation. You are healing and moving forward. You will know when YOU can deal directly with your xH.

Afternoon! I have to agree about remaining dark...I don't think that you are ready for that right now...but I do agree with Rubydoo in the fact that YOU will know when you can directly deal with him...

I'm not sure if you have been keeping up with my thread, but I decided to come out of the dark and felt that I was strong enough to develope a different R with POWs and go far so good...

BUT "I" had to feel strong enough, had to think about how I needed to change that R...

I'm here for you Sis...hoping and praying for you everyday!

(((SiS))))

You are doing great adn those BOYS are fine too!