Well, maybe it's time it *did* occur to them. They clearly expect to enjoy all the benefits of having grandchildren with Sis still acting like their DIL *when it's convenient for them*, while still cutting Sis out of the family the rest of the time *when it's convenient for them.*

I call bullsh*t on that. The EX-in-laws can bloody well abide by the divorce agreement the same way Sis has to. And it's not petty or vindictive or controlling to expect them to do so. It's a natural consequence of these people supporting their son's affair and supporting the destruction of his family.

It's a Boundary.
Mulan

It seemed to me that, among other things Sis said, NOT having her boys during her weekend is unacceptable to her, therefore, no, we have plans this weekend seems okay to me.

I wasn't even thinking about the IL's, and motivation behind saying no. Of course, if the answer of NO is to punish them, then motives need to be studied. No matter how she says no, though, the IL's are going to be disappointed. Having a drawn out conversation about not being included in the family is a waste of time, IMO.

LS:

Sometimes around here, seemingly contradictory advice can be given.

Silent recommends a simple answer.

I recommend a harsher, more direct answer that puts some of the burden back on IL's.

(It occured to me, "How often DO the IL's call?")

BR comes in with a post that brings her sensibility of not laying too many expectations on IL's.

Mulan, comes in supporting my harsher response.

That is one of the strenghs of this place, you have competing, but compelling advice, that helps YOU come to a comfortable response that works best for you.

Even if you do not even get the chance to read it before you have to respond.

Somewhere, in there, I hope you DO find an answer.

(((LS)))

LG

Sis, I think it's very important that you establish your boundaries with the IL's from the very beginning - they've shown themselves to be people who will consistently do what's most convenient for them.

They clearly know it's YOUR weekend to have the boys, and if you let them cross that boundary, it will be much harder to enforce it in the future.


On the other hand, you may well need flexibility from THEM in the future, so it's important not to burn your bridges with indignation and resentment.

As BR says, don't waste your time feeling indignant. Expecting them to behave 'better' is a lost cause.

TA

Well, all the advice wasn't read until I had already thought it through and sought advice from my sister. Initially, I thought I would have her respond...i.e.; please make plans with the boys on WH's weekend.

She encouraged me to take it at face value. If I stated that we are very busy and have plans, then presumably MIL would follow suit with the same level of emotion--businesslike--and MAYBE (If I'm lucky) they will sometime in the future realize that I have a pattern of saying "no" during MY time.

Trying to educate them would be pointless.

So I called, and politely stated that we had plans and are understandably very busy during this season. She understood.

I hoped that would be it. It was not....which was unexpected and for which I was unprepared.

MIL began to emote that she is leaving on Weds. for AZ and really wanted to spend some time and talk to me before she leaves; she knew that I had told her that I was greatly concerned that a relationship with her would be painful and thus would not pursue one with her, but she has been ill and has had no energy to pursue it from her end. She thinks of me every day and "knows" how difficult life is for me these days and how busy I am (well-intentioned, I'm sure, but hardly accurate), yada, yada.

So could we get together before she leaves on Weds. morning, and if not, could she write to me once she gets to AZ?

I'm sorry, I am really busy; I have to work on Monday night, and Tuesday is DS12's concert so there's just no time. She can be in touch from AZ if she wishes. (very businesslike)

She was very emotional. She told me she loved me, that she couldn't leave without saying these things to me...and I told her to have a safe trip. (kindly) We said good-bye.

On the one hand, I feel badly for her. She was clearly reaching out. This whole situation has (almost literally) torn her apart. However, she owns that. She is responsible for her self. She didn't establish a boundary (with either me or WH), and is suffering for it.

I stated my truth. I was not unkind. I kept my boundary...a boundary that I have established to protect myself. I am not strong enough to have a relationship with her right now. It would be too easy for me to get sucked into the drama, for me to begin to feel responsible for her feelings, for me to begin to want to control or manipulate her, or even WH thru her.

And I don't want to go there, so it is better for me to keep the boundary. It is probably better for her, too. I'm not in any position to support her. I need to take care of myself.

Anyway...I felt okay about it after. I was proud of myself for having the courage to make the call on my own, and I was proud of myself for not reacting emotionally. I was very neutral. I was dignified and respectful. All without getting sucked in.

I know she wanted something from me. I didn't give it.

Is that okay? Was it cruel? Or was it the right thing???

Yup. She wants you to reassure her that everything is really just fine and you aren't really hurt by her son's actions and divorce is really normal and everybody will bounce back and be happy.

I'm glad you didn't do that. Of course it's in the "common wisdom" that divorce isn't really damaging - for some reason, people feel compelled to pretend that it's not.

I'm glad you didn't do that.


FWIW, I think it was exactly right.
Mulan

You are to be congratulated!

LilSis defended her own boundaries and succeeded!

You were enough today!

Her motive for calling to ask for the boys during your time was not to selfishly take them for herself without regard for your feelings...

Her motivation was more benign, albeit still selfish. Her motivation was an attempt to reach out and reconnect with you - most certainly to relieve her own feelings of guilt and discomfort.

This is why it is so important not to prejudge other's motivations. We can only view another person's motivations through our own filters, and so often we make mistakes.

You may not want a relationship with her now...and nor should you feel obligated to reciprocate just because she wants one....but one day, that might change. Had you reacted with the harsher response, you might have done irreperable harm to a future relationship, and damaged the boys relationship with their grandmother in the process.

You did GREAT. You held your boundary without attempting to educate her or force her to change. Never feel responsible for ensuring that other people experience consequences for their choices - as long as you are protecting and caring for you and yours - you have far more better things to do than act as judge, jury and executioner!

Great job, today, Sis. I'm very impressed. For all the reasons mentioned above as well as because I don't think that I can analyze and interpret motivations as quickly as you did.

LS-
I don't know. I just sometimes think that 'it is what it is'. Meaning, she wanted to spend time with your sons, because she wanted to. She wants to reach out to you, because she wanted to. She does probably thinks about you, but when it boils down to it, you are not her son.

And, I know it is true for my family: Blood is thicker than water. And, it is not a bad thing to stick close to your family. BUT........... I do think it is a bad think to hold resentment against your IL's. It is a lot of work to always think about what the 'real' reason is, or how they are trying to do this or that.... I would just say, from now on, it would be best to benignly hear their offers, and IF you really have plans, politely decline. If you have NO PLANS with your sons, maybe consider their offer. It would be good for you to have some LS time!

In a nutshell, I think that you are spending a lot of time trying to figure out the motives of others, when you simply need to hear what is being said, at face value, and respond accordingly. Try not to take everything as a personal invasion of your boundaries. All it takes is a simple "no".

It is not healthy to be mad at them for the fact that your H is the way he is. It must be hard for them too.

I fear that you may be so intent on making a lot of boundaries with people that instead of it being "LS IN the world" it is going to be "LS AGAINST the world".......

BR's right, though, sd...I was all wrong on the motivations, so please don't give me any credit for THAT.

And to be clear...if it were something special...some one-time event that they wanted to experience with the boys...I would bite my selfish little tongue and send the boys off with a smile. Like I did when their cousins were in town. I made accommodations.

But just a little trip to the exhibit? I didn't realize that MIL was leaving until I called, but clearly that wasn't an issue for her. She accepted the fact that we had plans without question.

She had something that she wanted to get off her chest.

And I do hope that she feels better, even if I didn't give her what she wanted.

Maybe she and I BOTH have to learn to not look to others to make us feel better.

Sadmo: the boundary is in place for good reason...not as some attempt to control or punish ILs. That relationship is simply not healthy for me. The boundary protects me from myself as much as it protects me from the drama and weird dynamics of that family.

I know that is is very, very hard on them and has hurt them, too. They had choices about how they would respond to their son's adultery, and the choices they made have ultimately been hurtful to me. Beginning by giving him safe refuge to carry out his affair publicly, then to defending him and rationalizing his actions, and by promising me that they would be there for me physically and emotionally...then quite literally walking away.

I had plenty of unrealistic expectations about our relationship, but there is a whole pile of broken promises that they own, too. Commitments they made, that they backed away from later. Rationalizations.

THEY need to work on keeping promises, understanding enabling, etc. That's my opinion, and I have shared it in the past--ad naseum. Surprise! They did not want to be educated.

A boundary keeps me from getting sucked in to making that mistake again, and getting hurt in the process.

*I* (on the other hand) need to work on having more realistic expectations of people.

From first hand experience with ILs, a realistic expectation is that they will likely make choices that are hurtful to me if it helps them hang on to any remnant of who the WANT their son to be.

RIGHT NOW, I'm not willing to put myself in that position, in which I will likely be hurt. Instead, I will politely excuse myself from that tangled web.

Today, I ACTED that way. Emotionally disentangling myself is much more difficult...but I'm working on it.

Glad I got the thumb's up. I don't trust my instincts....YET. (working on that, too)

Experiences like this is how you build trust in yourself.

This is why acceptance is so critical (and why I beat sdguy over the head with it so much!).

Acceptance of How Things Are helps us to make reality based decisions. A decision based on How You Want Things To Be will always have unexpected outcomes - usually undesirable ones at that.

Putting both feet firmly on the ground - solid reality - making decisions based on that reality - and adjusting expectations will help you to start feeling safe.

You are doing very well - imagine a year ago how you might have reacted (not acted!) to your MIL - see how far you have come!

I began the conversation about trusting myself with my IC this past week.

This was the context in which I raised it: Many times, when I'm with really close friends who know the whole story, I'll joke about The Incident. Usually it's when someone is laughing or feeling stupid about some dumb thing she did...because I can beat them every time. My friend B and I have a little code...either of us can say "baloney sandwiches" and crack up.

But there's this little voice sometimes that says I shouldn't be joking about that, even though it feels good to be so real with people, so honest, and even though I feel safe doing so.

I realized last week that that little voice is trying to undermine me. My gut tells me that joking about this Thing--even though it is so serious--is okay.

The little voice is trying to tell me that it's unhealthy, or denial, or something. Shameful. That I should hide it and stuff it.

So....is the little voice telling me What Should Be? And my gut is Accepting The Way Things Are?

Anyway, IC and I spoke only briefly about it because we ran out of time, but it was sort of an a-ha moment when I realized that that little voice was me doubting myself. Self-defeating.

It's interesting how this issue works on so many levels...and thus needs to be developed on so many levels. No wonder it takes time.

Sis,

Great job with the MIL,,, you really worked through it well and should be proud with the end result. You continue to learn and shine!! Good girl.

As for that "little voice", sounds like you can now recognize it for what it is when it's trying to undermine you. That is a pretty big step. Now, go the next step when that little voice tries to speak to you and put a big ol' piece of duct tape on it!

I absolutely LOVE that you have started to joke about "The Incident"! That is SO totally healthy, IMHO. In fact, it's a technique I use a lot myself about myself. It says that 'hey, I know I'm not perfect, and that is OK. In fact, I'm strong enough to laugh about it because I can see it, have faced it, and am moving on with my life and perhaps may even better for having come through that"!

As pointed out re:the MIL converstations - - Look how you handled it Today vs a year ago. WOW!!

Good Job Angel!

Fear loses power in the face of laughter....

Your little voice is Fear - your fear needs you to be small, and weak and less than...because if you are bold, and strong and dare to laugh in the face of Fear, it becomes small and weak and powerless.

THIS is the path of healing that Mimi and I talk about - the Succulent Wild Woman - STARKs books are about healing from the inside out from terrible trauma.

Laughter is healthy, healing, and makes us whole.

So, just for the record, it was examining your own motivations and sensing the need to enforce boundaries rather than just do the nice thing that I was congratulating you for.

I still think it's an exchange you should be proud of.

LS:

I think you did wonderfully with your MIL.

Sorry you can't make her world better. And she can't make your's better either.

Maybe she understands a little better about the spot her Son put you in.

And you SHOULD joke about the "incident"

Most funny things happen in our life when we break away from the things that are expected and NORMAL.

You were in the middle of the vortex and you reached a hand out, and instead of your husband grabbing hold of it, you got to slap RT.

You were in NO WAY a normal place. So, you get to joke about it. Bologna sandwiches. Pinning your hair up. Do you sleep with the blanket on the slab or over your body, your post during Plan A about your thoughts about jail and how to make the experience more bearable was so funny, and so touching for the brutalness that your husband allowed you to endure.

Accept, as BR points out that your MIL is just her. And you are you. A very special person and MB superstar.

When I open MB and find that your thread has dropped to the second page it really pains me.

Because it means that NEW posters around her do not get to benefit from reading the truly terrific path that you have trod.

Even with all the little voices, and all the things that scream "Ms. Perfect" wouldn't do that, you have survived.

Even if you can't look at a bologna sandwich without breaking out in laughter.

And you should.

Travel Well LilSis. Your pack is getting lighter. You might not see it. But we do.

(((LS)))

LG

Hey, thanks LG. I'm touched...honestly. I still tend to get caught up in the day-to-day and I need to really remind myself how far I have come. It's still a struggle, but I forget how much MORE of a struggle it was a year ago. I have sympathy for "her," the me of a year ago. You really sort of laid it right out there for me.

I got an email from WH this morning. The first in months, as we have had nothing to say to one another.

"Sooner or later we are going to have to start communicating directly to one another whether it be in person, by phone, or by email. I'll start."

And he went on to specify a couple of things about health insurance. He's received a couple of pieces of mail from the insurance company (addressed to me) and doesn't feel comfortable sending it with the boys to school (duh). My solution would have been to stick them in the mail as soon as he received them. Evidently he's had them for a couple of weeks, and since I'm waiting on a $500 reimbursement, I'd like it ASAP.

So. You all know that I have been pitch dark. I have only spoken to WH once since March 3 when I went to Plan B.

On a few occasions, he's tried to communicate about business-y or kid schedule matters, but I have always responded thru my sister or LK. Typically, his communications with me are rude, accusatory, and very bully-ish...but much more conciliatory through another party, so that has worked well.

This is the first communication that has been purely business. No accusations about how ridiculous it is, no digs or jabs.

He did make a point to say that the kids' co-pays are covered in his CS, which is factually incorrect, but whatever. It's not something I'm going to get bent out of shape about. The final agreement will specify that I pay all co-pays anyway (I had no desire to go to him hat in hand to pay his 2/3 share of a $10 co-pay. SO not worth it.)

So where do I go from here? I don't want to do the friendly co-parenting thing...not at all.

My sense is to respond in kind. All business. As few words as possible.

"Please promptly forward via US Mail any future correspondence addressed to me."

It feels so ODD to consider corresponding with him at all, since I have not done so.

What's the ODD coming from?
Is it fear that if I open the door even a teeny tiny bit, he'll breach my boundary altogether, and come storming through gun blazing, killing me off for good?
Is it fear that he'll consider it a "win" if he finally gets me to communicate?
Is it fear that he'll think we are friendly co-parents now, and so he thinks he can chat with me about what to get the kids for Christmas, etc.?

It's probably a mixture of the above.

Maybe this is another instance in which I can do what needs to be done--and trust myself--to convey information without breaching a boundary. Sort of like the MIL thing.

And I suppose it's petty to worry about giving him a "win." But who's kidding? I'm not above petty.

However, I am striving for grace and dignity, so that must win out.

So to answer my own question, I will probably respond as above....unless I hear a hue and cry here.

Thoughts?

One question you must ask yourself is if you want to remain in Plan B. If so, then you would need to reiterate, through the intermediary, that you STILL do not wish correspondence directly, that all information needs to go through so and so.

If you are ready to end your plan B, and try some modified version, prepare yourself for more of an emotional coaster again. I wouldn't recommend leaving the sanctuary until you are really ready.

Up to you, ultimately.

BTW, this



Is not an olive branch, IMO. Sounds like he is demanding something from you. I don't know your WH, but sounds like he's saying "C'mon, Sis, we're <basically> divorced, so let's co-parent now, making things EASIER" Just my take.

I thought Plan B was a marriage building/saving strategy. The basic reason for it doesn't exist anymore - there isn't a marriage to save any longer.

I think you should ease into this as best as you are able. It is in the best interest of the kids - two parents that try to co-parent as apposed to one who wants to and one that refuses to. It creates conflict and stress for the kids. I think if you maintain the no contact you are going to end up looking petty and childish to your kids. Dad will say he wants to co-operate with you but you won't - and the kids will see that is true. It takes a stiff upper lip and you'll have disagreements but IMHO it is best for the kids which also IMHO should be your top priority. By refusing to communicate with their dad you are actually giving him the "win" IMO. By taking the high road and doing it for the kids you are actually taking the win away from him - not giving it to him. Just business communications is all that is necessary - you don't have to "chat" and be friends.

JMO

For once, I tend to agree with you, notashoped. Usually you and I clash. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

However, SL's concern about getting back on the emotional roller coaster is valid.

That's my fear. Can I trust myself to have any dealings with him without getting triggered right and left, without feeling wounded and betrayed and victimized, without waiting for an apology that is not forthcoming?

I don't want to get sucked into that again: thinking about what SHOULD BE.

This morning's email didn't really trigger me, so that's a hopeful sign.

You are right, SL. That was no olive branch. It was good strategy on his part, actually, because if I don't respond it will seem petty and childish, as if I'm too unsure of myself to engage in even the most basic exchange of information, and I have to have people out there protecting me.

Further, it was at least not explicitly demanding or rude. That's a first. The tone was entirely different: neutral instead of biting. And it isn't about marital recovery anymore...it's personal recovery.

My gut tells me I can handle this. Grace and dignity. Head high. All business.

What do you think, guys? Am I ready, like SL said? I need your perspectives.