Define "really ineffective."

If it is all you have ever managed, like me, it's certainly better than nothing.

For you, however, it will be a step down from your full-blown plan B. You will be less protected than you were before. It could be a very big deal for you. Even when the contact is business-like, it can still hurt and trigger, and do you really expect him to stay business-like and impersonal the first time something contentious comes up?

Why stop? If it's because LK can't stand to the intermediary thing any more, that's different, but certainly don't stop because someone else wants you to.

Sis, I do the mostly-plan-B thing. We have reacted similarly to stuff before. My advice is that you stay in your dark plan B for at least a while longer.

Sis ~

I suspect that your husband was given some grief by your mother in law - I think there are some consequences being felt by your husband.

Your Plan B is more effective than you think.

I think you should talk to LK, and discuss how much longer. I am sure you can reach an agreement with her that is somewhere between dropping full Plan B *right now* and 2 years from now.

A few more months at least...

You are making such great progress right now, and I would hate to see you cave to pressure and end up with your progress set back.

I've said a similar thing to sdguy many times - protect the mother of your children. YOU are all they have right now.

Besides, dropping Plan B right now, because he demands it, simply sets a precedent.

You teach people how to treat you.

Drop your boundary at your husband's demand, for his convenience...and you'll have taught him that rude demands and bullying are currency with you.

This is a new and improved LilSis, who can protect herself, and WH needs to get that.

Drop Plan B on YOUR terms, when you are ready, where you control the circumstances and the communication - and the stage is set for calm, narrowly focused conversaton.

Sis,

Just going to chime in quickly to say Plan B for as long as YOU need to. As SD points out so well, triggers abound, even in a 'business' discussion with the WS.

I do not think you are quite there yet to make that change. I agree, to with BR (and others) he is trying to smooth this all over and BE Friends.

Don't go there. As you said, no response is Necessary. Stay in the dark, you are doing well. Plus, I like having such good company!

Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you today! Supporting you all the way!

I hope that you get a little YOU time soon to relax and rest between this project and the boys...hope you can at least not look like the exocist with the head thing! LOL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Excellent question...which I can't answer this morning, since I was half asleep last night.

I think I meant ineffective purely in terms of protecting ME from the pain of the whole situation.

Anyway...I really appreciate your input, everyone.

Now on to the huge project that got dumped on me yesterday... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LS,
Good for you to notice there is absolutely nothing urgent about this. Mull it over for as long as you like.

But Bramble nailed it again -- these 2 plan b breaches are related. Likely MIL has been on his case, and he needs you to participate in the happy X family drama so he can tell mom to back off.

"sooner or later".....ummm no. He is not right about that. You don't EVER have to communicate with him if he continues to be the type of person you don't need in your life. Ever. Ever. Ever.

Speaking from the other side of the equation: The fact that my XH and I can talk, chat at events...even have people comment on how well we get along -- relieves me of enormous guilt. So I guess its up to you if you want to give him that gift.

I guess it's time to bump myself.

I think it might be a tough weekend. I've made plans for tonight and tomorrow to keep myself occupied, but I've got my work cut out for me. The hormones are raging, the boys are gone, and Monday would have been our 13th anniversary.

Sitting alone in the quiet this morning, reflecting and really examining what's going on:

Intellectually, I know this is not my fault. Intellectually, I know that I do not, nor did I ever, have the power to cause WH to do what he did. Intellectually, I know what he did is inexcuseable.

But I keep seeking validation of the above. This means, I think, that I am not done blaming myself.

Which is absurd, and angers me. Why am I having such a hard time pushing past this? I so want to be DONE with questioning myself.

HE owns what he did. HE was wrong. HE was weak. HE betrayed everything.

I know....if I take "blame," then I can control it; fix it. Grrrrr.....

I keep telling myself all the right things, I understand, it makes sense...but it just seems to not filter down to the very deepest part of me, the part that doubts that I am good enough.

This is a very tough nut to crack.

Another insight: There is a huge hole--a crater--in my heart. AND I have a very clear sense that UNTIL that hole is filled, I will continue to feel this emptiness and loneliness. I will continue to feel resentment and hurt. These are feelings I want GONE. Far, far away.

So filling the hole becomes the task. And with what do I fill it, I ask myself. Love for God and self, says the intellectual part of me. Gratitude, joy.

It seems far easier to visualize that another PERSON fill the hole, but I know this shouldn't be, either.

This just seems to be such painfully slow work, filling this hole.

So that leaves me here:
--with a deep-seated resistance to accepting that I AM good enough, and always have been.
--with a huge hole that needs filling, and uncertainty about with what that hole can be filled.

Can anyone help me connect the dots here? Are these related somehow?

MAYBE it's that a hole can't be filled with tainted goods. Maybe once I accept that the goods are wonderful and precious, I'll quit tossing them in the trash heap, and fill the dang hole instead.

What is frustrating and discouraging is that it seems such frustratingly SLOW work. I feel as if I make progress, but then when I dig really deeply, when I'm really honest with myself, I see how much left there is to do.

The book would say patience, time, there is no timeline...everything happens as it is intended to...BUT, c'mon already!!!

Arrrgh....sorry for the hormone-fueled ramblings...

In typical fashion, it feels better to get this stuff out there, to translate the "feelings" into words. Free floating feelings are more frightening and less manageable (CONTROL!!) than text.

Well, LilSis, it will probably help when the affair crashes and burns, but not as much as you might expect. When my ex's ended, it just seemed like such a HUGE waste, and a lot of pain for nothing.

I think doing esteem building things, becoming a woman of excellence works better than anything. That, and TIME. I know you didn't want to hear that one.

A partner's adultery is a life changing event, and things will never be like they were BEFORE.

Sis,

So glad you bumped yourself! I was on my way to your thread, but was distracted by a living room tent building project!

I wish I had some excellent wise words to help you out, as I Definately feel where you are right now. You have the right tools,,,,, you know the way and the work,,,,but that missing something feeling is so so hard.

I keep trying to reflect on my progress. Highlight in my mind my Good days and build on those. However, hormones really don't help matters do they!! I'm like you in that I feel I'm doing well, but at times when I look really deep inside, I still see the parts yet to be healed.

The good news is that there has been so much healing already. And yes, you are right in the fact that we must accept that TIME is the key to the continued healing.

As Believe says, things will never be like they were Before our husbands committed adultery. Yet, there is the knowledge that the BEFORE wasn't perfect, and that we have so much more inside ourselves with which to build a new AFTER, a Better, AFTER. And yes, someday, a Happily Ever After.

Wanna come over and make candy?? I know we can dig up a huge pile of CHOCOLATE to help soothe those hormones!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


{{{Sis}}}

THIS IS SOOOO VERRRY TRUE that Believer says.

Sis:

Don't you think it would help to move if at all possible?

Environment makes a BIG DIFFERENCE.

A large part of you may feel that you are STUCK there while he has moved on...

I would think that FEELING would be worse when you are ALONE..

That's why I sold my house...

LilSis,

Popping in regarding the quote.

Often, when a person offers three items in a "choice" scenario such as a list, it is usually to embed their preferred choice within the list.

For example, when watching TV shows, you will frequently find that the third "choice" is most often correct in mysteries, offers, etc. Watch detective shows for example. They will be combing through lists of things, and more often than not, the third person they telephone, the third license plate, the third person's picture, whatever, well....THAT'S the ONE!!!!

Check and see if I'm not right on this. You will be shocked at the percentage of times that this occurs on TV. It will absolutely ruin lots of shows for you. Sorry.

Anyway.

So, do you find it suspect that

he lists

in person
by phone
by email

and emails you?

I don't.


However.


I think he wants to meet with you in person. My gut tells me HE isn't "done".

Which is why you should consider staying dark, if for no other reason. He cannot reach satisfaction with his own mind if he emails. He thinks he can, be he can't. Because of the deeper self, Sis. He KNOWS what is there. We have written of this before. And it is there, in him, regardless of the new house, new woman, and the new life he is trying to start.

You still haunt him, and he can't "start", because what he has done is still there.

And he knows that. So, on the list was "in person". He had to list it, because he could not help but list it. I find it quite satisfying to myself that he put it first, too. Because it reveals his mind. He had no choice in it coming first. He purposely listed email last, because he is forcing that choice for himself, his own boundary for safety. But "in person" is the true choice here. In matters like this, that kind of thing isn't as much under his own thought process as he might like to think.

Ha.

Now, the question for you would be.........


Would you like to meet with him in person?



The divorce is not yet final. I don't know that I would do it. I don't know that it would do anything for you, but I think it would for him.

He would likely see it as closure.

Just so you understand that going in.



As far as future communication goes, yes, you'll have to figure out something. I think it might be a good idea to ask the attorney to work something out about how the kids would be exchanged, so as to reduce any unnecessary talk between the two of you.

But WH is correct. Ultimately, there will be some sort of "talk" between you two. Someday.

Maybe you should make it the slowest way possible. Because he is WRONG about his list.

in person, telephone, email.

There remains

US POSTAL SERVICE

And that is probably the method I might choose. See, he would actually have to PLAN his communications in advance, any changes to the schedule, anything he wanted to "throw" at you, etc.

Except for emergency communications, you would be VERY insulated. Maybe you should consider good old-fashioned letter writing? Keeps things planned, keeps a written record, and forces those communications to an absolute minimum, because it is WAY more trouble to do it that way than email or phone.

SB

Sis,

Something to consider about the timing of your Plan B coming to an end - talking with your intermediary is a good idea.

Here is the best reason for continuing Plan B for now

You are on probation with regard to contact with RT. He did not defend you and tell the truth in regard to RT's attack on you in court. Therefore, he cannot be trusted, since he will frequently be in the presence and under the influence of RT to not misconstrue any direct contact.

For this reason, I would consider continuing Plan B until such time as probation as ended and your record has been expunged, or he uses his influence to get the letter taken off your record.

I would NEVER let him have it both ways.

Thanks for checking in, SB.

For the record, it would scare to death (and I'll let you pick apart that statement). I am afraid of him. I have been burned badly, and I want to stay far away from the flame, but there's a little moth in me, too...

So help me to understand about closure. You say that HE would likely see it that way. Would he also experience it that way? Seeing me in person would shut the book on that for him?

Isn't what he's done still there (as you said), even if he sees me in person? Even if we interact in a friendly way? The inner self wouldn't be satisfied....would it?

Or are you suggesting that if we were to interact in person in a friendly way, that would be the closure he needs for his inner self?

I am very glad that I stayed dark. I do not want to come out of the dark.

Much healing to do there is (says my inner Yoda).

mimi: I've thought about moving. Maybe. It's not as unappealing as it was some time ago. Now that my finances have fallen into place, it's easier to get a picture of how that would work. The housing market is awful, though. Houses are on the market forever these days.

Kayla: that's a good point. I guess I have reason to be afraid, when you look at it that way. Maybe that's been what my little voice has been trying to remind me of.

[(((Sis)))]

To answer that, I would revisit the definition or reason for Plan B.

Plan B is to protect what love you have left, no matter how miniscule, from depleting altogether.

There is a reason you went to Plan B in the first place Sis. As I see it, that reason is still valid.

Your lovebank balance for your H is near empty, if not already in the red.

Who cares if HE WANTS contact. Its still all about him. If he wants to talk recovery, he knows what it will take (Plan B letter).

Jo

HI SIS, just thinking about you and checking in...nothing really to say...Resilent recapped on PLan B...the purpose and so forth...

heck, I needed the reminder...

Sis,

Just 'guessing' here, but I think your WS & mine are both at the point of NEEDING us to communicate with them to finalize the picture they made of the future when they walked out.

That would be THEM running around doing what they want, having it all be about THEM and US going along with it by being friendly co-operative co-parents. Having Us still fill needs that they need us to fill.

AND

By doing this, they believe we are giving our APPROVAL to the results of their adultery.

They want/need us to put that last smoothing touch onto the lies they have built their lives on now. Everyone else has accepted it,,,,,,,,,,,so now WE HAVE to, too?

I think not.

Stay in the protection of Plan B. You are no more ready to come out of it than I am.

{{Sis}}

Thanks, Bugs. That sort of sums it up, doesn't it. We all need to remind ourselves of that.

I am realizing how "unready" I am. I am still vulnerable to the hurt that he can inflict...intentionally or not.

As to the status of the love bank; who knows. It doesn't really matter right now. I guess the love bank is just closed. When and if I ever come back to access the account, I'll find out if the fees due to "account inactivity" have depleted the account totally...or if I maintained the $5 minimum balance needed to keep the account open--if only on life support.

I know I've said it before, but tomorrow would be our anniversary.

Even long after d-day, WH claimed it was the happiest day of his life. Of course that could be one more LIE told by a fog-bound wayward, but still...

Just a little blue. I'll get through. Two good friends are meeting me for Mass, and then we are going out to lunch.

I didn't get home until 3 AM after going to a Christmas party with LK and her FWH. They are doing very well; FWH and I had a chance to catch up and he is saying--and evidently doing--all the right things for a successful recovery.

Anyway, I'm not in tip-top shape this morning thanks to three glasses of sangria, an appletini, numerous pudding shots, and 4.5 hours of sleep.

But I haven't laughed so hard in a loooong time.

Sis,

I think if you interacted in a "friendly way", WH would see that as tacit acceptance on your part of the whole ordeal, and would have "closure" for himself. You're okay, he's okay. His inner voice would be somewhat calmed, but because he would know you were "covering", he would be nagged by the voice inside.

If he saw you as still hurt, he would tell himself

it was YOUR problem. YOU just couldn't let go. YOU were the one all along. HE was right the whole time. And in there, he would find a measure of closure.

It would still nag him, though.

The outcome would be the same, either way.

Some closure for himself. The voice still nagging, but more quietly.



For you, a huge issue - how to act, what to wear, fear, trepidation, lots of meaning, will things change???, what will the outcome be????, will he see me through all of this???, will he still find some love/hope????.........too much, LilSis.

Because I see in you the idea that, somehow, he still might want you, love you, the boys, the family. The still silent hope that he is not lost.

Perhaps someday he may find himself again. One never knows.


That's why my opinion is that you hold out Plan B, even if somewhat modified. You might want to consult the Harleys on this one.


My MIL's story? She held out. And 8 years later, he came back. She was able to hold on to the love. I don't know how she did it. Her WH married another woman, legally adopted her daughter. Finally, they divorced, and he came crawling back, 8 long years later.

She took him back. Lord knows why.

They are still together today - 40 years later. They've been married a total of 50 years, not counting the 9/10 year interlude of their divorcing, remarriage, his divorce and then their re-courting/remarriage in between.

So it's not unheard of. Just unlikely. But, he's not remarried. You're not even divorced legally.

I've seen lots of couples go through with it, then remarry one another. They call it "their stupid years".


As far as moving, there are many reasons to do so. I would say that once WH sees the "for sale" sign go up in the yard, reality bites hard. And the less you say to him about where you're going, the better. Don't say much to the kids about the distance, etc., staying really dark to him. Be vague. Be "unsure".

Let him believe you are moving on in many ways.

WITHOUT HIM. Without his input, because he has forfeited that right in YOUR life. With the kids, he has some say, there are some limitations. If he asks, your response should only be something like, "I will stay within the boundary of the divorce agreement. I will notify you of our address once it is confirmed." He need not know anything further, really.

It isn't his business - the details of what, why, how you do things. Remember that. In YOUR life now, he isn't allowed to know. He didn't ask or tell you about his house. Don't ask/tell him about yours, only as far as the divorce agreement requires. Strict adherence to that keeps you feeling safe, and keeps him distant. And keeps RT OUT OF YOUR LIFE.

There is the RT factor.

Because of his passivity, one has to remember that she is likely driving this bus.

Telling him what to do, when to do it. He doesn't do lots on his own. Ultimately, he will come to resent her for it. You might want to remember that. It can be used for your purposes in the future, if you pay attention and watch for it.

See you around.

SB

Hi sis-

Just popping in to let you know I'm still keeping up with your thread and sending you my support, although I don't really have much advice to add to what SB and Bugs have said.

I know at times it feels like you are just going through the motions of daily life and waiting, for something....but not sure what it is.

I am so glad to hear you had fun at the Christmas party-even
if you "tied one on".

Thinking of you-