Good morning, Sis!

I wholeheartedly agree with the purging of turdy clothes from your home and off your children while they are with you. An item Bab's made for DD14 "disappeared" this past weekend, too.

In a way, I regret it. It had been sitting on the table for days and every time I walked by it, I let it bother me. Finally, I stuck in the trash and took the trash out.

What I should have done is discussed it with DD14 and explained that it is disrespectful of me to have those items in my home and ask that she remove it. I should have given her the option of removing it herself.

Your interaction with churchlady was interesting and you handled yourself well. Those surprise face-to-face dealings with people who you feel wronged by are tough. I think you did much better than I would have.

However (that's a disguised "but"), I'm going to Monday morning quarterback for a moment just to get the thought process going.

Here's the interaction as you posted:



You stated that the ball would be in her court if she wants to talk to you.

Did she not just toss the ball to you? She reached out, tossed the ball to you. You hot-potatoed it and made her catch it again.

Did she just offer an olive branch?

Did you hand the branch back and by doing so tell her that the olive branch wasn't good enough and you need a better one?

Will she risk extending it again?

What exactly would you like her to do for you to accept her again?

Can she do anything? Or do you just want her out of your life because she hurt you?

Can amends be made? Do you even want them to be? If yes, how? - and how can she know what you would like from her if you don't tell her?

If no, tell her so. Kindly.

I'm not judging here, Sis, at all. I think you did well in an unexpected situation. Much better than I would have, I'm sure.

So many questions - and I'm not offering any answers. Doncha ya hate that?

One possible response to CL? "Getting together to talk would be nice. I was very hurt by the breakdown in our relationship"



This is certainly your right and within your control. However (but), would it help YOU to bring some closure to it?

Seriously, Sis, it looks like I am judging but I am not. I'm being a bit selfish and taking your experience and using it as an opportunity to learn. I am certain there will be a day that I am face-to-face with MIL or Sis-IL or "used to be" friends and I'd like to figure out what is the best way to handle it for ME. I'd like to be able to live by my boundaries - but be gracious about it too. Take care of myself, but cause no harm to others, either.

Fox

Thanks Mr. W. I was curious since the house I was looking at was on the river ...big lot, big house...real nice. But living on a river that can't get me anywhere, doesn't really appeal to me.

I may be wrong. It's unlikely such a big city was established without access to the lake. I'm betting there are rapids at the east end of Grand Rapids and GR represented the furthest east point of navigability.

Here's a link to the history:

http://www.mfhn.com/glsdb/rivers/grandriver.html

Mr. W

Coopersville recently made news for the closure of a GM plant located there. I don't know much about the community itself; it is essentially a bedroom community of GR now, although it was its own little town historically. It's fairly rural. Its twin town (Marne...used to be Berlin, but the name was changed in WWI) has a really nice little fair every year, and a neat little depot restaurant.

It's a nicely positioned between the lakeshore and GR; quick trip either way.

Standardized test scores for schools can be found here: MEAP scores

The Grand River is navigable from Grand Haven...for a ways. I don't know how far exactly...but it really doesn't take you to a destination, if that's what you're envisioning. It's a lovely scenic cruise, but the navigable portion peters out at a county park. The NOAA chart for Spring Lake show the extent of the navigable waterway.

WH said once that a tourist once asked him where the rapids were.

WH told him he was about 100 years too late.

The river has been tamed, so to speak. There are no rapids.

But the navigable portion of the river ends far west of GR. It doesn't go as far as Coopersville.

Spring Lake would be a better bet...Fruitport. Sickofthis1961 lives in that area.

Hi Fox!
No worries...I hear you, and it is good to be asked to explore what's going on.
I’m not so sure it WAS an olive branch. It was an unexpected encounter. She didn’t intiate it. This may be splitting hairs, but I think there’s a distinction to be made between intentionally reaching out and offering an olive branch vs. doing a little CYA because you feel uncomfortable…you’ve been busted and you gotta say SOMETHING.

Well, for one thing, it should be intentional, not coincidental. I doubt calling me was on her “to do” list for the day. We just ran into each other accidentally.

Her tossing the ball back in MY court by reaching out with INTENT (as I invited her to do)...that is very different from a deer in the headlights response.

All excellent questions. And I don’t really know the answer to them. It was as good as I could muster at the spur of the moment…neither welcoming nor deflecting, if you know what I mean.

I honestly don’t KNOW that I want a relationship with her. I have established a completely different support system and friend network. I was forced to because it turned out that I couldn’t really count on my “old” friends in the way that I thought I needed…and it’s turned out great! I am blessed with fabulous "new" friends.

The KEY question: What value—or what harm--would there be to ME in re-establishing a friendship with CL?

And it’s a question I certainly could not answer right then, on the spur of the moment. I think I was courteous, not rude. That’s about all I feel that I owe her, right now. Maybe in the future…maybe when/if she contacts me in six months, or six years, I’ll feel differently.

It’s not in front of me at the moment, so I don’t feel like I need to anticipate how I MIGHT feel on the CHANCE that she contacts me again under an UNKNOWN set of circumstances.

ETA: CL has her stuff. I have my stuff. I need to worry about MY stuff: whether or not a relationship with her is healthy, rewarding, or beneficial to ME or my kids. I would expect her to conduct the same type of examination and make a determination on HER best interests.

We are adults, and we can't control one another or force relationships on one another. I learned that lesson the hard way.

LilSis:

You KNEW it was CL.

And you went about trying to avoid her.

And she stood her ground and looked you in the eye and extended you the olive branch.

You have established a REAL HIGH bar for someone in the past to have to get back in touch with you, don't you think?

Your sitch around Dday and the "slap" etc, probably made quite the rounds on the gossip circuit in GR.

Some could be quite uncomfortable after that, and not quite sure how to address/open up/consult/confer/connect/etc with you.

I remember that CL was somewhat the sort who wore her religion on her sleeve, and that her not reaching out to you at all seemed to show that she was some sort of hypocrite. Talk the talk, but not walk the walk, at least with you.

You are under NO obligation to deal with her. She is part of a life that no longer exists. And may even exist IN the enemy camp. That is reason enough ALONE to avoid her.

However, She said the right things. And didn't try to slink away. That is worth SOMETHING. You were courteous, and thats all you had to do.

Maybe, just maybe, it's time to walk onto the OTHER court and pick UP the ball.

Whats the WORST thing that could happen if you called?

You have come so FAR. Reconnecting to other people in the past who WERE important, continues that growth. If they R doesn't work, you end it. If it does, it's like finding a $20 bill in an old cost you put on. Over and over again.

LG

Let's explore this a little more - if you don't mind. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />



She didn't initiate it, maybe, but she didn't turn away from you either.

I think you are right - there is a distinction between a happenstance meeting and an action taken from the heart. Can the end result be the same?

She took advantage of the accidental meeting to speak to you and acknowledge the receipt of your letter.

She didn't GOTTA say anything - she could have turned away and acted like she didn't see you.

If she had not spoken first, would you have spoken to her? You have options, just as she did, and she chose to speak to you.



You are right. Absolutely. This is your call.

My only warning is to be careful about not letting go of the grudges.

You may benefit from one last discussion with her. Your perceptions of why she acted or didn't act the way you expected her to may be way off base - could be learning tool for you.

My WH has a history of cutting anyone out of his life that hurts him or he gets angry at. Eventually every single person in your life is not going to act the way you think they should. Do they deserve to be annexed? One day, my WH will be sitting all alone because he does not forgive any one of their own humanity.

I know that's MY stuff and not yours, but you may be able to relate.

I don't know CL, I don't know the complete circumstances. I'm just giving you some things to consider.

Fox

For what it's worth, I think you handled the surprise encounter with CL very nice.


I believe LS said hey first, on her way to drop the clothes off.



Did she say the right things? Or is she a fair weather friend...now that it's "all over"?

And why is the ball in LS's court now. CL said she wanted to talk with LS. LS didn't tell her no or get lost, she said the ball was in her court. If she truly wants to talk with LS, she'll get in touch with her. Why should LS be responsible for the talk CL "requested"?

Not at all!

I am working on that. This is how I EXPERIENCE it...see if it makes sense: My grudge initially was HUGE. I was terribly resentful. I had expectations of CL that totally did not pan out, and all I wanted to do was blame, blame, blame.

I don't feel the grudge anymore. I really don't. I understand that she had "stuff" and she did what she had to do. I don't know what was in her heart.

I am happier. I have friends now who don't have this same "stuff." They have their own stuff, but it's not all intertwined with my "stuff" like CL's is.

RT and CL's kids go to the same school. CL works at the school. They live a block away from one another. How is this any LESS sticky for CL now, than it was in Oct. 06?

I kinda think I don't really need it. I kinda think it's not worth it. I kinda think I'm all set in the friends department, for now.

I already know that she had her reasons. I suspect what some of them were; others I don't know; still others she probably wouldn't admit to anyway. It really isn't important, because it is in the past. The why and wherefores are no longer at issue...at least for me.

What *I* had to learn from this is a lesson--for ME: Don't own other people's stuff. Don't take other people's stuff on as your stuff. Don't let other people's stuff define you.

That's the far bigger lesson than specific WHYs of CL's behavior.

Does that make any sense?

Does it? Even when I have grown beyond those relationships?

I live in a different world. I have new friends. I have new expectations of people. I have a new respect for myself and others. I am not the same person I was 18 months ago.
Am I obligated to WORK on restoring that relationship for HER sake?

I don't think so. I don't feel obligated in the least. I don't feel compelled in the least. I'm content to NOT have her as a friend...right NOW. I don't feel a hole in my life that only she can fill...something like that. I don't MISS her.

That sounds pretty simple, but we ALL know how difficult it is to end a relationship. It is nearly always messy.

Do I want to spend my emotional energy trying to resuscitate a relationship that has no place in my "new" life?

It sounds to me like its a relationship full of triggers.
And really not necessary or needed by you.

I think you already have your answers, and anything she might feel a need to say won't be for YOUR benefit but for HERS.

I don't think you need to take that on.

Good for you on defining your boundries!

Absolutely! You have made so much progress! I don't want to take away from that.

Is there more progress that can be made or is where you are at right now good enough?

It's your call, Sis, you get to make that decision.

Lexxxy said this is a relationship with many triggers. I think that is correct, too. It's your option whether to stay away from someone or something because they cause triggers or to face those triggers and have the opportunity to change them.



That's all good, too. It's your life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />



Yup, this is a good lesson.

Nope, no one should own anyone else's stuff. But isn't it nice when someone cares about our stuff and can help us see our stuff a different way?



I'm not asking you to care about the WHY's - in the end they are her whys.

I'm asking you to look at your own reasons why you still resent her and are willing to cut her out of your life.

I see an opportunity to heal your own emotions over this relationship, whether you choose to continue with it or not.

Maybe look at it this way (caution: may seem harsh):

Sis has every right to choose not to have CL in her life because of the way she felt CL treated her.

WH has every right to choose not to have Sis in his life because of the way he felt Sis treated him.

In one scenario you are the giver of the annexation decree, in the second you are the receiver.

I feel like it sounds like I am encouraging you to continue a relationship with CL - I'm not really. Just giving you different options of looking at it - so that you end it the best way for you - being the person you want to be.

If you're good with the way it is right now, then so am I. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Fox

Don't worry about being harsh...I can take it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Both are absolutely true. Sad, but true.

I can no more control WH's annexation decree than CL can control mine.

Similarities, yes, but apples and oranges, IMO:

*I had made no commitment to CL, whereas WH took vows.
*I had no other connection to CL other than friendship, whereas WH and I brought children into this world together, shared a name, a home, hopes and dreams.
*CL waited until she happened upon me to "reach out," whereas I took immediate and exhaustive steps to restore my relationship with WH (pre-MB steps, mind you, but the intent was there).
*CL suffered no egregious harm from my annexation, whereas the boys and I have been irrevocably hurt.
*I left the door open for CL by telling her it was in her court; WH turned around and took me TO court. (hee hee)

To this point:
Absolutely! But be careful, because it's a slippery slope...

Someone who cares about our stuff and is willing to help us see our stuff in a different way is making an INVESTMENT in us. It REQUIRES two conditions be met--or else it could easily become co-dependent:

I have to be interested in making that investment of my own free will. (otherwise, it's me being a martyr)

CL would have to be interested in me making that investment. (otherwise, it's me being controlling or manipulative)

I'm not convinced that either CL or I are really all that invested. I certainly haven't seen any indication on CL's part, and I've invested myself elsewhere.

Although the triggers are certainly a factor, it's REALLY about the fact that I'm just not feelin' it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Her response to me (or lack thereof) when the [censored] hit the fan speaks to me about the kind of person that she IS. She has many wonderful qualities. I just didn't see them during my darkest hours. CL was unwilling or unable to be available to me when I most needed support...when the chips were down.

This is What Is. I accept that; and I use that information to determine what my future relationship with her will look like. At this point in my life, I'm not interested in pursuing a relationship with someone who only "reaches out" after the chips were picked back up and she bumps into me at the Goodwill.

It's okay. As it turned out, I didn't need her. God provided what I needed, and in a much more effective and fulfilling way.

I say this without judgement...just as I would say that I would choose not to be around someone who chooses to smokes because it is unhealthy and harmful to me.

She is who she is. I am who I am. We just don't mesh anymore....for a lot of reasons: the triggers, the complications, and the fact that--for her own reasons--chose not to reach out to me when I was in a very, very bad way.

I would totally agree with you if I felt that establishing this boundary were an attempt to control or manipulate her behavior.

It's not. It's about me and what I need.

I appreciate this conversation, because maybe it brings out a lot of important issues...

LilSis, there's a pattern here.

You place a high expectation on another person. Your expectation is detailed and specific and there's usually a sense of your entitlement to be looked after and protected by that person in some way.

They fail to meet your precise expectations.

You feel profoundly betrayed and hurt, and want to cast them out of your life as completely as possible.

Recognise it?

It happened with MIL, and it's happening with CL.

Unless people behave perfectly by your standards, they're not good enough for you. It's Ms. Perfect projected onto other people.

Try and develop some compassion here. You have no idea what's been going on in this woman's world. For all you know, her problems might make yours look like a summer picnic. Perhaps not, but you don't know...you're making lots of assumptions, and condemning her on the basis of things you don't actually know. Religion may be her way of coping with serious mental illness...you don't know. The real problem here is your expectation of how she was supposed to respond to you. You wrote a neat script for her based on what you think a good Christian is supposed to do, and she failed to read it properly.

You know what, LilSis? There's no law that says people have to make themselves available to you when you need them. No-one. Not even your own mother. If they do, you're deeply lucky that they're in a place where they can give you time and energy, and that they've chosen to do so. Often, they won't be in that place, and that's just tough.

This woman made some attempt to bridge the gap. She didn't have to say anything; she could have made polite nothing conversation like you did. But she tried. Only she didn't do it perfectly. She didn't call you up, or write a letter, like she 'should' have. Perhaps she'd told herself that the best way to deal with it was to hope for a moment alone with you, if it came along. Sadly, she didn't know that that would fail LS's standards.

Whatever relationship you maintain with her, holding onto a sense of resentment will not help YOU in the long run. Holding a grudge simply allows you not to deal with your own judgementalism and lack of forgiveness.

TA

I think LilSis's behavior is HEALTHY. I went through the same thing, so LilSis, you are not far from being HAPPY again. The betrayal of the person you thought loved you most makes you question ALL of your other relationships too. It is like a pendalum swinging. I dumped some friends, and acquaintances too. It is part of healing, taking the time to examine relationships.

Sis -

just dropping by to say

You are doing fine -

to CL or not to CL, that is the question - it is 100 % up to you - how far you extend your hand .... once it's been bitten

it is natural and wise to be cautious, and keep your hand in your pocket sometimes

carry on !

Pep!! (me bowing down) Thank you for dropping by! I hope you are well. Happy New Year!

I've slept on this.

That, some off-line discussion, and TA's post framed the argument that fox was making a little more clearly. I especially related to the point about Ms. Perfect projecting on to others, and a lack of compassion. I don't like seeing THAT reflection in the mirror.

However. (A yes-but in disguise)

This is where I am trusting myself (which is an important lesson as well).

I am not ready for that relationship yet, as I am not ready for a relationship with MIL.

I think that is why the bar is set so high...RIGHT NOW. I am not saying that it will be that way forever. I'm listening to my gut, my instinct: Don't go there, Sis. Not now. Not yet.

She may never reach out again. I'll have to deal with that internally in the future. Maybe I'll get to the point where I need to reach out to go through that process of reconciliation. Actually, I look forward to that day, when the damaged relationships have been healed--not recovered, but healed. It's just not today.

I think I'll know when I'm ready. I like the way believer described it...it's a pendulum. I'm waaaay over here, questioning every relationship, unable/unwilling to trust those who have hurt me. Once bitten, twice shy.

I am very busy protecting ME right now. Being selfish, yes. I need to be, I think, for now. Inside the security of my newly created world and circle of friends...I am healing and growing stronger.

I've never said (even in the first post describing the encounter) that CL would never be welcome in my life.

Just not now; not under these circumstances. Not as a result of a chance encounter. I think saying that the ball was in her court was a way of letting her know that she wasn't shut off completely...that I was open to a return volley.

I had about 10 seconds to come up with a reply. Believe me, my mind was spinning. What am I going to say?? I don't want to be rude. I don't want to completely shut her down. I don't want to gush all over her with an "oh I'm so happy let's be best friends."

So I opted for the middle of the road approach...in the 10 seconds I had to come up with a response. I gave her a "maybe;" the door's not totally closed. The language I used may not have conveyed "maybe" very well...but I didn't really have time to choose my words with great precision.

Remember: this was a surprise encounter for me, too. I don't know if I said this in my description of the encounter, but when I pulled up, I saw the minivan, but the woman who was unloading (whose back was to me) had dark hair, so I reassured myself that it wasn't her. I didn't know it was her until I stepped out of the car and saw her from the front. The whole encounter lasted about 90 seconds.

I'm hearing myself become very defensive here. I'll acknowledge that. So clearly there's some tension.

I just need to trust my gut right now. I'm not ready for this. I'm still working on me. I'm still working on building relationships with the new people in my life, on my new circle of friends. I'm not in any way eliminating the possibility of reconciling those "old" relationships...but it's not a priority for me now. It just can't be. In the future--when I'm ready--yes.

I hope this makes sense.

And you gotta remember, LilSis, that you were betrayed ALSO by someone who pretended to be a friend. Your reactions are very healthy.

Ooops, that didn't come out right. I'm sure you DO remember that one.