I see both sides of that statement... BTDT one could say.

My father, is, well, an @$$. We've been estranged for more years than we haven't been, and that's his choosing. Nowadays I'm simply not interested in him anymore - he's hurt me too many times.

Before I achieved an inner peace that he is who he is, I dealt with a lot of self-esteem issues. He eroded my self-esteem by telling me I wasn't good enough, too much like my mother (like that's a bad thing?!) and all kinds of stuff.

I felt that if he was such an @$$ and I came from him, I must be one too.

I wouldn't say I loathe him - he's my father and a part of me will always love him. However I despise what he's done and continues to do. However, that does not define who I am.

I was probably 25 years old when I had that "Aha!" moment. When I realized the problem was *him* and not *me*. Took a long time to get to that point, and a while longer to believe it - but hey - I'm a terrific person (if I do say so myself!)... if HE chooses not to see that, it's HIS loss.

What one parent says about another to their child, can have more impact than you realize. I heard my parents sniping about one another for most of my formative years. I didn't want to believe that either parent was as bad as the other said - because what would that make me? I was *theirs*. Believe me, it took a toll.

For your DD, it's OK to despise what her father is doing, but be aware that all of this may cause her to question who *she* is. You have the power to build her self-esteem here - I hope you reassure her in any way that you can, that just because she is "of her father" she doesn't need to be compared to him or whatever.

Not sure I'm getting my point across as clearly as I'd like ... but I can relate to the position your daughter is in.

JinGA

TA: I do disagree that there could be self-loathing if she loathes him. ANd to be more clear, she does NOT loathe him. She loathes his actions! That is one thing that we have discussed on more than one occasion. i.e. Hate the deed but not the doer. And with our IC. She does not dislike herself.

She naturally has moments where she wonders why her father would choose such a low-life. (and there is a PI report that confirms that) over her. She knows wh she is. ANd most days she is a confident and wonderful young lady. Her self-esteem has taken a beating. And that is something that is being worked on actively through counselling and our talks that we have.

JinGA, thank you for your perspective. I do work very hard to not call him names. I have seen what that does to kids. And their divided loyalties make it hard on them.

DD loves and trusts me. Becasue I will not lie to her. DD loves her father but won't back down on what she know is right. And no way will she ever legitimize this adultery or the next or the one after that. Becaseu that is not what we beelive is right. WH was not free to pursue this A or the one before. It makes no difference who the OW is that was there on D-Day. I have no clue if she was in the pciture at the same time as the one that I found out about. They will always be an OW.

As a matter of interest, do you confine the word 'Dork' to this board? You've used it here for so long, I sometimes wonder if it's how you refer to your WH in real life?



TA

I can't speak for FAA but it's one thing to call him a name here, quite another to call it in front of the children.

I've done it - vented and perhaps used some DJ and bad names - but I do NOT do that in front of my kids.

In fact, I don't call him names anymore... but for a while when I was uber-peeved off I did. Now I reserve my ire for the GF <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

JMHO

JinGA

Pep, I disagree with your disagreement. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> At least, I think you're only partly right.

To hold hatred in your heart for anyone - even someone who has done you great damage - keeps a bit of your soul cold and poisoned.

In the moment of feeling a rush of huge hatred for anyone - in that moment, do you like yourself? After you've vented your rage over someone, spewed out all the spite you can summon up to hurt them, do you like yourself? Or do you feel slightly ashamed of yourself, however quickly you wrap that feeling up in justifications and righteousness?

I don't think anyone is made a better person by holding onto hate.

If the person you're hating is someone to whom you have reason to feel gratitude and some love, then I think it's almost impossible not to feel deeply conflicted and not very proud of yourself, even if you're a mature adult with years of therapy behind you.

I think it's possible to reach a state of recognising the failings of an unsatisfactory parent, but still appreciating whatever good qualities they have - which is the scenario I think you're describing. I just don't think it's easy for a child to get to that place, and I think FA-A's DD is a very young teenager, at most?

You can feel limited love for a DNA parent, and retain self-worth. But I don't believe you can hold onto loathing of anyone, and not dislike the bit of you that's doing the loathing.

That's why BSs are encouraged to strive for forgiveness/acceptance despite the hurt inflicted on us. It's not for the good of the marriage, or the WS, or the OP, but because holding onto hate keeps us stuck and hurting.

TA

I do call him Dork on occasion in conversation: rarely to his face. Dork has been what he calls himself and most of his friends and his family call him that as well. He has always played that charming, childlike role and often is self-deprecating. Dork or Dorkan. It is a play on his name. So depending on the context, I would say that is the only name that I call him other than his given name.

It was used more as a term of endearment until this A stuff.

TA, my DD is almost 16 and regrettably, she has grown up very quickly in some regards. She has alwasy been very mature for her age. ANd her maturity level has amazed a lot of folks. INcluding our IC. She says that DD is far more mature than a lot of folks in their 20s and has an excellent grasp on behaviour cause and effect and is very well grounded.

TA
I don't think anyone is made a better person by holding onto hate.

Nor do I but that is different than 'loathing yourself', that you previously inferred was a direct consequence of loathing a relative / wayward dad.

And do you not think that hatred can be as partial, qualified and various as love is ?I believe that as love is complex, so is hate. And just like not all love builds you up, not all hate breaks you down.

Bob, what I said was "To loathe him is, to some degree, to loathe herself. " I didn't, and don't suggest that the level of other-loathing exactly matches the level of self-loathing.

But I don't think it's possible to feel powerful negative emotions towards another, without that negativity distorting something in yourself to some degree.

The emotion of hate is often the only method immediately available to protect yourself against the destructive actions of another. It's an emergency measure created out of intense fear. Like most emergency measures, if you keep using it in the long term, you begin to cause damage to yourself.

Hate, at whatever level of intensity, pushes Bad and Evil onto the other person, leaving oneself pure and good. For small moments of intense fear, that's human and understandable. But it's also unrealistic; the hated person usually has elements of goodness, and we, the ones doing the hating, are not perfect ourselves. Hate distorts our ability to mentally form an accurate picture of the world, and of ourself within it.

To get to a balanced picture of the hated person, and the actions they've perpetrated on us, and of ourself, we need to let go of hate.

Trouble is, hate is addictive. We can get hooked on the feeling of personal goodness that comes from hating someone who's wronged us. If absolves us from having to look at ourselves and our own imperfections and our own helplessness. It's exactly like alcohol or drugs - a numbing agent.

Once we've esconsed ourselves in a self-image of virtue and goodness in relation to the hatee, we find it hard to tolerate others pointing out our own faults - especially if they're similar to the faults we're busy hating. Hate makes us prickly and touchy.

It's impossible for most of us to avoid feeling intense hatred for someone who has inflicted pain on us. And if someone is in a position to keep inflicting pain on us, that intense level of hatred can become permanently part of us - permanently distorting our own inner world. So looking to find a way to take as little hurt as possible from the actions of that person, is a sensible way to survive personally intact.

If they're not in a position to keep hurting us badly - say an OP with whom NC is long established, or a spouse we get divorced from - then we should be looking to a diminishing level of hate. If the hate remains at the same, intense level - we're hooked on morphine. Or we're still full of fear, and need to take a good look at why.

Many of the happiest, most at-peace people I know, have been in a position to nurse intense hatred of someone or something at some point in their life; no-one would blame them. I suspect that the fact they've found a way to let go of the 'right' to hate is what allowed them to move on and be in harmony with themselves. On the other hand, I've rarely met anyone who harboured long-term anger and resentment, who ended up happy and serene. Almost always they become brittle, bitter, and entitled, and their lives revolve around the triggering event that justifies their continued hatred.

It worries me when a long-term poster shows no signs of moving self-protectively away from the source of pain, but rather, seems to constantly rub him/herself against the sharp edge to open fresh wounds.

TA

It worries me when a long-term poster shows no signs of moving self-protectively away from the source of pain, but rather, seems to constantly rub him/herself against the sharp edge to open fresh wounds.

That worries me about FAA too.

This was her DD's communication though. The kid still has some desire for a relationship with her mad bad dad.

Should she be prevented from so doing to save her from certain hurt ?

FAAs STBXH is one of the most pathetic dads I have ever known, quite happy to roll in his mire. Maybe its to his DDs credit that she still HOPES for some decency from him ?

How much does a parent's attitude towards a difficult situation influence the child?

If a parent isn't healing, how would that affect the child's own healing process?

In this situation, to what extent is the betrayed parent working to help the child manage her expectations in a healthy way? Is the child subtly encouraged to continually experience disappointment?

TA

TA, I agree that a parent's attitude towards adversity does influence a child. And it concerns me that I could be being as much a negative influence to DD as my STBXH is. WHich is why I am in IC. Whatever I discuss here is discussed with her.

It is hard to sum up our lives in a few short posts. I have discussed this often as a reality check. That is, is my perception of how I react, valid? Am I hanging on out of fear. Am I wallowing in victimhood? Have I changed at all? Or am I still stuck?

And I honestly can say I am not stuck. I do give myself permission to feel the pain. I might not be helaing as fast as some. BUt I am moving farther and farther away.

My IC told me that I am one of the most self-aware people she has counselled. That I am not afraid to look at my own motives and inner demons. ANd I am not afraid to examine my own issues. SHe has reassured me that I am not stuck. Nor am I obsessed of holding on out of fear of being alone or some of the other negative things I worried about.

She understands that I am working on myself and doing what I can to protect mine and DD's financial future. And I work very hard to do the right thing.

There are valid reasons for my being still in contact with STBXH. And the primary reason is that he has stalled for so long on getting this dang Divorce that I am frustrated beyond belief.

I have to fight for every support cheque, for every expense cheque. And that is a major source of worry. Finanacially I am tied to him. Because of health issues, I cannot depend on my own source of income all the time. And that frustrates me too.

AM I healing? Yes! I CAN see an end to this. I CAN see a time without this constant pain and irritation. September is when the D will be final. There is a 30 day wait period after Court. Everything will be settled then. And after that, I have no reason to think, see or contact my the XH.

I do understand this a a control thing for him. I do understand that this could be his way of paying me back for waht he FEELS was me controlling him. But I do understand that is my feelings and my perception. Just like STBXH has his. I cna't change or persude or contorl his feelings.

What I can do is help DD understand that it is not her fault that her F is the way he is. That she is a great person. And that while he is not a father in any healthy way, that she cannot expect anything from him.

I don't believe that subtly or otherwise, I am encouraging her to experience disappointment. I feel I have encouraged and helped her undersand some of the WHY of his choices. But that has nothing to do with her. That is HIS problem.

I have actively worked to ensure that she does NOT hate him.

I don't know how to express it any better. What I can and will do is show DD this thread. And perhaps post for herself if she wishes. I want her to alwasy speak for heself and express her own feelings. And that is not a negative imho.

DD is struggling. I know that. We all do. And I cna't take that pain off her shoulders. I cna be there for her. I am. I can reassure her that it is not her doing. WHich I do. I can encourage her to talk to me or to the IC to work through this and ensure that she is not taking on a burden that is not hers to bear.

I don't think either of us wallow in our sorrow. We have a very active life. SHe has great friends and healthy activites that keep us both very busy. I have a great set of IRL friends plus my fmaily that love and support us both. We are grateful and thankful for what we do have.

This next 3 months will be difficult but there is an end in sight.

BP, thanks for caring <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have thought a lot about this kind of stuff. I do look at things from every angle and then do it all over again.

Making sense of this insanity is not my goal. Making sense of how I react and what I must do the ensure that this never happens again is. It is a puzzle. ANd the human psyche is like an onion. But I like to understand. It is not just in personal Rs. It is the way I look at life. lol.

I am guilty of trying to apply logic to an illogical sitch. That is I WANT logic to apply to a FEELING. But I do recognize that is a fruitless effort. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />And wanting something to be a certain way is also a feeling not a fact.

Could I or should I prevent her from hoping that her dad is different than he is? Well that is not possible for anyone, is it? It is what she DOES with her feeling and how she reacts that is the important thing, is it not?

She has every right to be angry and to be upset. She is NOT self-destructive imho. She confronts him when he babbles his BS at her. She is not silent. ANd that is a good - no a GREAT thing. BEcasue the feeling that this raises have to go somewhere. ANd the IC has said all along that DDs anger and pain should be directed towards her father. THAT is a healthy reaction. SHe does NOT internalize it or take it on as her own issue. She has not displayed a lot of the issues that are quite prevalent in children with parents that do what her father has done and does.

She gets sad and mad and that is totally understandable.

HEr reactions and her choices have been done with grace and with honesty.

FA-A, I've followed your sitch for a long time now, and I share your frustration with your WH, and his employers (I believe the Navy pretty much turned a blind eye, is that right?). Your WH has let your younger daughter down on many occasions (if I remember correctly, there's an older daughter to whom your WH had no right of access?). It's a crying shame.

I see you as a brave, feisty, ferociously determined woman. (The 'Fighting' in your screen name always amuses me; I think that if there was anyone I'd like to have on my side in a battle, it'd be you.) I believe that, if all that energy and drive was taken in the right direction, you have it in you to be spectacular.

Often, though, all that drive and stubborness seems to be set going in a fruitless direction, and it's as if you must thud and bang against the brick wall for the sheer need to say "See how much I'm hurting'. Even your screen name seems to encapsulate a sense of doomed martyrdom. For all the time I've been reading your posts, they haven't moved through much of an emotional journey of introspection and self-discovery; the focus is kept relentlessly on your WH and "look what he's done now".

FA-A, I don't doubt your fierce protective love for your DD, or your anguish at how her father is treating her, or your desire to find a safe path through this mess for both of you. I think you're a terrific mother and she's lucky to have you.

What I want you to look at is how relentlessly you focus in one direction - the direction with the most pain, the most disappointment, the most fear.

I know there are practical reasons for having to interact to some extent with your WH, and they're likely to continue for several years. But, unless you nurse a hope of reconciliation with your WH (do you?), you need to use your precious resources of energy and hope in a positive direction. There is more to your life than the latest newsflash about WH. Woman, you've got masses going for you! Don't squander those goodies on someone who can't appreciate them!

Instead of "This is what I've learned about Dork - the b*m", let's have "This is what I've learned about me."

FA-A, there are lessons to be learned for all of us BSs, no matter how well we have personally conducted ourselves. Our kids have a legitimate right to ask us how they can make healthier choices than we did. The answer is always complex, but we have a duty to offer something more than "I was just unlucky'.

TA

TA, I agree with most of what you said. And thank you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And yes a lot of what you say about me saying look at what the a$$ has done now applies. But, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> that is here, on MB, in a safe place that I can knock some of the sharp edges off the pain. In IC and in my IRL support group, the focus in far more on ME. As you say, what have I learned about me.

And I have learned a lot. Or more accurately, more of an affirmation of things I thought I knew. Plus, the things that I own that could use work. Like control. Like assuming that I can fix anything thorugh sheer will and determination.

I LIKE myself. Re: my screen name. Hmmmm now that one is the one I came up with when I came back to MB for the second time. And felt so alone IRL but still determined to do all I could to keep my family together. Does it smack of martyrdom? I didn't think so. I used it to describe where I was at that time. I will think of a more appropriate name for the me I am now.

Plus, I do think I am brave and ferocious in ALL aspects of my life. From family to career to volunterring for things i beleive in. Well, all of it. And I do spend far more energy focussing on the rest of my life improving me and our situation.

TO me, it FEELS as if I am making huge strides in my life. And then WHAM! That albatross called STBXH throws another monkey wrench into our life. I consider myself a very capable and strong owman. But sometimes the struggle to make a good life, take care of my sweet DD and myself is enough. I do not NEED or want the added burden on having to protect myself from my WH. We are almost 5 hours away from him, yet his actions or rather his refusal to settle things, keeps me engaged.

I have quit working on a reconciliation. He is not good for me. Can I change? Of course. DO I want to? YES!!!!! Can I STOP fighting his [email]cr@p.[/email] NO not now. I MUST keep guard until court. I MUST not accept his lies about his financial sitch? Heck no! I must protect that for DD AND myself. I MUST document and track everything. ANd check what he says. But TA, I am so close, it FEELS like that last long and very hard drive to the finish line. A month away for court. Then I can drop this hypervigilance. I can see the reward.And I think you are worng abut this interaction going on for years. After court, the financials will be in place. The CS, etc will automatically be transferred. And if he wants to change them, he has to do something. Not me. AS far as I am concerned, no matter if the judge agrees with me or WH, it will be done and I can FINALLY move on.

I don't need or want WH's BS. He does not deserve me.

I don't even think of the Navy much at all. Their attitude is an embarassment to my country imho. But not that is not unique.

It's funny that you say that children have a right to healthier choices. That is another topic that my IC is working with me and DD on. ANd DD and I talk about it as well. I must say, I have never said I was unlucky. Nor have I said llok what he did to me. lol. He can only DO to me what I allow. I know that.

"hold"

I never said "hold"


emotions that are as passionate and as as vivid as hate (or lusty love for that matter) .... by nature fluxuate

if a person hates someone, it is usually temporary

to suggest that hating someone will hurt the hater .... is incorrect

because feelings fade over time

it's a process

little kids tell their parents "I hate you"

and for that moment
they really mean it ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

but that moment of "hate" does no one damage

that is my point

yes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I can say YES !!!

I can separate how I feel about myself from how I feel about that person

I don't know what this topic is about..just reading recent posts.

BUT..there's a colleague of mine that I HATE right now...

I think she's EVIL and told her so....

I plan on continuing to HATE her...and I FEEL WONDERFUL about it...

I close my door so I can't see her...

Excuse me for this chance to to let the world know...

So there...

Let me make three of us who can hate someone and feel perfectly good about it.

I have nothing but the deepest hatred for the vile skanks who willingly helped my husband destroy our marriage AND for his "friends" who sat by in the office and watched them do this and did nothing to stop it - like talking to me.

I'd feel way worse if I DIDN'T hate people like that.
Mulan

I feel HATRED for the OW as well but I don't FEEL it DAILY like I do with my colleague whom I have to actually see...

Now if I have to come face to face with the OW...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I pray that doesn't happen...still not ready for that...

Last time I had to stop myself from bamming into her car...I ended up just flying past her... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I imagine the 9/11 bombers felt pretty much like that, too, don't you?

Does that help you to feel more compassionate towards them?

TA