Wasn't there a long post with examples of reverse babble somewhere? Maybe that would be helpful if someone could find it.

There's a link in Orchid's signature. The consensus seems that this is most useful for plan B.

Great suggestion Jim. Thanks!

Orchid: Yes it is and a classic one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Suggested RB response:

BS: Me, too. It is difficult to have any romantic feelings for a 'wayward spouse' (yep, use those words). As long as you stay in that alienlike state, you won't have any real family feelings. So you will lose the romantic feelings and then lose other feelings like love of your children, relatives, real friends, work..... all the good things you used to cherish. What I don't understand is why you would make such a stupid choice.

Now is this an LB, DJ? Yep..... but remember WHO you are speaking to.... the above response is for the WS NOT your real W. So make sure the audience is right. You can tell by the eyes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


Orchid: I suggest you avoid any R talk when the WS is around. When your W is around, I suggest you be cordial and nice (not overbearing though...that tends to bring the WS back).

My motto (though not MB suggested): Plan A your spouse and plan B the WS.

This can be used while in plan A. RE: The WS feels they need to know the plans of the BS and family so they can know HOW to attack them. Plan B the WS removes some of that knowledge and it drives many a WS crazy. Which is a good thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JMHO,
L.

MW,

How r u doing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hey Orchid,

Thanks for the advice and for checking in on me!

An eventful few days since I last posted. Managed to get to see a new counsellor. My wife, or Bonkers as I'm now going to call her, did not like this at all. She was really angry and felt as though I should have discussed it with her first. I explained that I was just going there to see if it was a viable alternative before requesting that we went together. Bonkers then gave me a litany of full on babble. Lots of insurmountable obstacles to our reconciliation.

For the most part I just let it wash over me and said: "Why are you still here then?". After a bit of silence I followed it up with: "I guess there must be something left in our relationship after all?".

I then suggested that she might be waiting an awfully long time for her feelings to return if we didn't actively do something to work on our relationship. I then proposed that we try a few things: the new counsellor, a chapter or two from one of the Harley books and limiting our discussion on relationships to some pre-planned slots of time. She didn't want any of it.

I then used something from the Love Busters book. "What have you got to lose? Try it, you might like it. If you don't, we can stop at any time and try something else."

Well that appeared to work. She wasn't enthusiastic but she agreed to all of it.

We went out that evening. It was a bit strained at first but after a while I discovered a new EN that I had not been fulfilling - admiration. I can't remember how it came out but she had no idea that I find her the most gorgeous and attractive person on the planet. I spent the next hour explaining all the little things about her that drive me wild. Bonkers told me that I never ever told her stuff like this and she obviously liked it. It nearly turned into another massive justification for us to split but I managed to defuse that by saying I couldn't change the past but could affect the future.

I can see now that I didn't show her admiration but you can bet your farm on me doing it from now on.

The following day was completely crap but Rome wasn't built in a day eh?

I think I see a faint glimmer of light at the end of a very long and dark tunnel. Almost imperceptible in terms of brightness like one of those stars billions of light years away that astronomers can only see with telescopes in space.

Let's hope it's not the locomotive coming the other way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again for checking up on me. It means a lot.

MW,

Good job! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Just watch the EN giving. Giving admiration to a WS mindset is deadly. Instead be selective. Give the ENs to your W when she shows up NOT the WS. Can do? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

I most certainly can.

OK, she's prepared to read some of the material. I have SAA, Love Busters and HNHN.

I think I'll steer clear of SAA as it talks about PlanA/B and I think she'll perceive that I've been manipulative.

LBs is kind of avoiding the negative. HNHN is moving toward the positive but I'm a little unsure of the prescriptive way it tries to list the priorties for male and female.

Which one would you recommend I ask her to try?

Don't give the WS any books to read. They have no measurable comprehension levels.

Instead, you read and apply as best as you can. When your W makes a more stable and consistant stance, then you can give her HNHN.

L.

Hi Orchid

What do you mean by 'when my W shows up?'. Clearly you see a distinction between W and WS and seem to imply that Bonkers will flip between these two states.

MW

An old hero here, WAT used to post that our spouses were kidnapped by aliens and replaced with pod people that looked similar but behaved like broken robots.

He was RIGHT. Squid was an alien battlebot, then over time Squid returned and was very regretful of the battlebot behaviour.

Your W will return one day.

You're doing well - finding our teh EN for admiration was good. Meet this without sucking up. Drop the odd phrase in rather than Clintons card type statements. Make it a habit, not a project OK ?

Glad you found MC to be more helpful. Much better IME than Relate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just thought I’d post an update for catharsis and hopefully some support and encouragement.

We went to see the new counsellor together for the first time last week. Bonkers was extremely apprehensive about it. I’m happy to say that the new counsellor seems to be much more focussed on trying to rebuild the relationship and is more practically oriented. What a refreshing change! Bonkers got quite down afterwards because she was forced to relive it all again and cried a lot during the session. She eventually came out of the gloom that evening and she instigated more discussion. I listened, empathised and didn’t respond to babble. We got through that with no LBs and suspended the conversation when she had had enough. We then had a good night out together.

The following weekend was the best I’ve had in ages. We seemed to be closer than we have been for a very long time. We even had SF although that is still a big problem for her. Since the weekend she’s been gloomy again but I’m putting that down to her being unable to sleep well at the moment due to menopausal symptoms.

I’m quite pleased that I’ve completely restrained myself from initiating relationship discussion for four weeks now. I’ve also not LBd for the same amount of time. I’m hoping last weekend was a sign that it’s paying off. Do you think I’m interpreting things right?

I’ve read that I should expect strong fluctuations in mood from Bonkers but it is really hard to deal with sometimes. I’m feeling very low today. Saw the OM’s car and started obsessing about him again – thought I was over that. It made me start worrying that she’s broken NC although I’ve no evidence.

This experience is just the worst.

MW,

Well, the time will come when your needs and your recovery will need t/b addressed. Your W will need to have a big part in helping you. She needs to rebuilt your trust in her.

Your MC can provide that help.

Looks like you are more grounded and can move forward better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

I just had an almost identical experience to braeworth.

I asked Bonkers if she was going to attend the next MC session with me.

We talked for hours but in a nutshell, she said:

1. Her cravings for the OM were not dissipating.
2. She was tired of feeling so bad. The guilt is killing her. She has withdrawn from friends and things she liked to do to avoid continual discussion of the situation. She can't go on living like this.
3. So much has happened that she just can't see how her sexual feelings for me will return.
4. She doesn't want to hurt me and is so sorry for the pain she is causing me.
5. She just can't carry on doing what we've been doing since DDay and thinks we should split.
6. She could be making the biggest mistake of her life and is scared of the consequences.


She was in absolute floods of tears. I've never seen her sob quite like that.

I responded in much the same way as Owl and Jim advised Braeworth although I hadn't seen that at the time.

I told her that it was normal to feel this way. How hard it must be for her. So glad that she is talking to me about how she feels so I can help. Whilst she and our situation is unique, many people have recovered from similar situations. I even recounted a summary of Bob Pure's story. I reassured her that she will get through withdrawal provided NC is maintained. That her feelings for me will return if we start working on improving our relationship instead of wringing our hands over how terrible it all was and is now. How I too don't want to carry on doing what we've been doing and want to start working to construct a better marriage for us. In short I was trying to make her see that there is a third option - to do something different. I said that the purpose of MC was to help her through this.

She responded by saying that I have always been the strong one in her relationship and helped her make tough decisions. She said I wish somebody could help me now. So I offerred to. We talked about the options she had and the positive and negative consequences of each of them. She repeated how scared she was of the consequences of splitting up.

It was really tough but I managed not to LB throughout the whole process and even though I felt so upset, I managed not to seem distraught or needy.

The outcome was that she has agreed to go to the next MC session. I think she has it set up as a test in her mind. Kinda like something has to come out of this or it's over.

It's 3am where I live and I can't sleep for worrying.

What do you think about all this?

Any constructive advice would be most appreciated.

Your response was excellent. You just need to keep riding the storm out. How long has NC been established? It took me about four months of ****** after NC was established until my WW started snapping out of the fog. This is a marathon and you are on mile 7. Finishing the race will be worth the pain you are feeling now.

U step back and let Jennifer C help. Make an appointment with Jennifer C @ MB. It w/b worth the effort. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

Jim, thanks for the encouragement.

Orchid, forgive my ignorance but who is Jennifer C and why her?

Thanks

Hello mate

Similar to Brae, I am a bit suspicious about NC being intact in Bonkers' case as she is still so committed to OM.

Its not opinion but a measurable fact that after about six weeks of cold turkey, an addict starts to crave less for the object of their addiction. Any TASTE of that resets the clock back to zero.

A txt , a call, a sighting, a letter or email.

How transparent is she, MW ?

Jennifer, is Dr. Harley's daughter and a MC here @ MB. She does phone counseling along with her brother Steve. So MBers have the benefit of all 3 Harley's to help along with Mrs. Harley (the mom) who also is on the radio show. Talk about support!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jennifer will help you with a good plan A, B and recovery. Then if your W also is willing to seek help, she can help her also. You should read SAA and HNHN along with both taking the EN questionnaire. If your W won't, you do it twice, once as you and once as her. Then call.


Click on counseling center at the top and learn about the program. It's good.

L.

Jim, Orchid and Bob

Thanks for your responses, encouragement and advice.

Jim, NC is about 3 months now. We went to MC together again last week.

As part of her effort to maintain NC she has virtually cut herself off from her friends because socialising with them would involve visiting our small town and the likelihood of her bumping into the OM would be high. We also avoid going there. This means she has done few of the things that she really enjoys for several months. It came out during MC that this coupled with the withdrawal is making her very unhappy indeed.

MC suggested that this strategy is unlikely to work for us in the long term and that we ought to relax the constraints and put agree plans on what to do if she or we bump into him. I'm uncomfortable with this as it goes against the MB principles but moving away simply isn't possible for us because of the adverse effect it would have on our Son's education.

She has continued to be very unhappy since and we haven't discussed it further yet.

Orchid, Bob - I'll take heed.

Thanks

MW