But you are defining character as BEING PERFECT. An impossible standard. Character comes in how we handle the wrongdoing. For instance, if Dr. H committed adultery, he would have not have lost his character if he stopped the adultery, confessed it and made amends. It takes great character to do such a thing. A person without character will never do that.

We have former waywards here have done this and have great character. And then we have waywards here who have only stopped but have never made amends. Theirs is the character I would question. See the difference?

Just recently I was cleaning out my files and found a personality test I had to take for a counseling class several years before my A.

I was flabbergasted when I read it. While I scored very well on items such as friendliness, modesty, sympathy, intellect and altruism (wanting to help others), I scored very low on trust, cooperation (due to confiict avoidance), morality and dutifulness.

I was most definitely lacking some moral character at the time. While I demonstrated some very positive traits, I struggled in other areas that were absolutely necessary in order to have a successful M.

After years of IC and soul-searching, I know my scores would be very different now. Just thought I would share as a FWW.

KM

some people.... wired for them or not... will never have an affair. some people will never let their guard down because to do so would mean they have shed the values, character and integrity that they have attained.... to hurt those closest to them in that matter is not a possibility.
Some people would never allow anyone close enough to become a temptation that is too difficult to fight off.
This does not require perfection Mel... just perfection regarding this issue.
In the same respect... a person of character does not abuse their children...sexually or otherwise...
A person of character does not steal from others
A person of character does not abuse animals
etc.
It is the moral and ehtical STRENGTH that allows them to fight off these evils.

Someone mentioned David from the Bible. David was a man of very little character for a HUGE portion of his life.

I think people can both lose and recover their character, plus gain in character.

I lost respect for my H for quite awhile, now I respect him immensely. His actions and words line up, both show character.

FWIW from an oldtimer having an MB relapse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

KM...
exactly...
FWS can have all the character in the world. I am not speaking of who they are after the affair....only the person that existed when the affair started.

exactly

MEDC you wanted to know how someone of character could do something like slide his penis up into someone else. The soul is strong but the flesh is weak.

I have just come to learn after a much needed heart to heart with my H that pride comes before the fall the hard way.

MEDC it is real easy to say what you will and won't do when you are not in that situation at that given time. However the devil comes lurking when you are vurnerable. That's how someone of character can get got up.

I will use Suzet as an example. She crossed boundaires without realizing that she was doing something to hurt her H. It wasn't intentional and she like most people think that could never happen to me until it did. You will be surprised at how when you think that you are above doing something and then find yourself right in the middle of doing just that.

A person of character may not do the things intentionally but because we are not perfect we could have the best intentions not to do things to cause the ones we love harm and still do it inadvertantly. I don't know one parent that has raise a child without making one mistake no ,matter how much character they may have.

DIG... I will be 44 next month. Something tells me that I have had opportunity to be in that situation... both when I was married and now being single with married women that come on to me. Sorry, I am just not biting that bait....even if it is a cute little worm on the end of the hook.

My soul... my character controls my flesh....so it matters not the weakness of my flesh if it is not in control.

I've got to agree with Mel and others.

There really are two classes of 'waywards'. Serial cheaters, who have clearly demonstrated a disregard for anyone but themselves...and done so repeatedly. And then you have the people who never learned proper boundaries, or proper care and feeding of a marriage. Don't get me wrong...an affair is a CHOICE. But often they let themselves creep into that affair through poor boundaries and a series of small slips.

Doing it a second time, knowing the impacts and clearly seeing those decision points indicates a lack of morality.

My wife is someone that NO ONE would have ever believed was capable of cheating. SHE never thought she would have been capable of it. But those poor boundaries were what did her in. Looking back now, she can't believe she was so naive, so stupid.

There is a DIFFERENCE.

MEDC,

You sound so much like my H. You are lucky though... you've been schooled here, and understand boundaries and what leads to an A.

Just recently I had to have a difficult talk with my H. One of his female co-workers just recently married a man who had broken off their engagement the year before. Since the wedding, things have gone from shaky to worse. His co-worker is unhappy, and my H is the only man in the office. She's starting to talk to him about her M. She's asked to go on walks with him during lunch time (he always goes for a walk on his break.) Eventhough her cubicle is right across from him and they can see each other, she's started emailing him little messages. He has reported all of this to me, saying "I really think co-worker is unhappy with her M, she's doing x and x and x and I feel bad and uncomfortable." Being a FWW who's A pretty much started like this, I was very ashamed to inform him of the red flags I saw. He thought I was being silly, and because he thinks As are "ridiculous" and "meaningless" he would never do something like that. However, the more we talked about it, he understood. He said, "what do I do when she email me? Just ignore it?" YES honey, just ignore it... or reply three hours later with one word. He didn't know what to do, and didn't understand how to set up a boundary. He does now, and I thank MB for teaching me this.

I wonder about this: in my immediate family, there have been several affairs (my siblings and inlaws). Half of the waywards, at some point in the affair and aftermath, fell into an almost suicidal depression. A complete breakdown of their identity, not knowing who they were and what they had become. The other half, felt more anger and entitlement, feeling sorrow only because of the uncomfortable ramifications of their actions.

I wonder which half will be more likely to repeat the offence.

One observation I have, right or wrong, is that there seems to be some fundamental differences here between BS's who are still in their marriages, WS's who are still in their marriages and those that chose to go their separate ways in how they respond to the issue of morality and their seeming tolerance for imperfection. I'm not referring to MEDC because I don't read enough of his posts to know. But there are others that come to mind.

All I can say is that I believe I would have a different outlook if I had chosen to send WW packing rather than keep her around. Maybe I'm not a good person because I have "accepted" it. I don't know. But I cannot absolutely condem the adulterer right now because, to do so, would force me to condemn myself.

If I believed WW had no character, I would divorce her. I don't know if she has character or not. I believe she does.

This fits with my H, Owl, and I find to be helpful.

Interesting that you say this because I was thinking that one of his FLAWS is naivete which has been a STARTLING REVELATION TO ME LATELY.

I agree with this 200%.

For me, my then-H never showed remorse. He just wanted to get on with the marriage and not talk about it. I hurt badly and he was indifferent and unwilling to give me what I needed. This was the first time he cheated, pre-MB.

We recovered.

7+ years later there was a repeat performance.

Jo

Mimi, I understand how you feel about defending your H. I feel like I have to defend myself the same way on her as a FWW. I confessed my A and was remorseful. I am 6 years post Dday, yet I am raked over the coals because I didn't follow MB guidelines to the T.

So, I for one believe you. I believe your H is an honorable man who went off on a bad path for a while. I'm sure he thanks God he woke up and realized what a good person he was losing. I KNOW first hand how he feels.

But is your outlook formed by reality or by a self serving illusion borne of necessity? I suspect the reason that many BS's are still in their marriage is BECAUSE their WS does have character. The ones whose marriages ended, ended because the WS had no character. No doubt there are exceptions.

For me, my last marriage ended because my H truly did not have a strong character. He felt entitled to have an affair because he was "not happy."

In this marriage, my H DOES have character. If he didn't, the boy would have been kicked to the curb long ago.

I don't feel the neccesity to be graphic about what happens, sexually, during an affair. Really, seriously? I think Mimi knows exactly what her H was doing with the OW, as much as I know what PWC was doing in his A's. It's not a very nice thing to do, especially to a BS, already dealing with those images day in and day out. Geez. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Now, as for integrity, I think it's something that you lose, just as you lose trust, when you do something like have an A. I don't believe that you cannot then earn back the integrity by doing the right thing and working like crazy to fix the wrongdoing.

I, myself, have made some poor decisions in my life, that have hurt others. I made those decisions knowing that someone would get hurt. I'm not proud of those decisions, but I have learned from the aftermath about myself, about my character, and about my flaws. I hope to continue to do so during my life's span, and improve those things.

It sounds like MEDC is saying that he will not have an affair because he has strict boundaries; he has learned that over time, so give him kudos for that. I, personally, am just not one to ever say never, not anymore.

I also don't think A's are the only circumstances where a person's integrity comes into question, so be careful about ALL of those other things, or you may have to turn that mirror on yourself.

I agree with piojitos regarding a different view of things depending on your marital situation. I have not necessarily accepted what PWC has done, in terms of it being okay, it's not okay, but I have accepted that what's done is done, the next step is to work to clean it up. I have hope that my WH will regain his integrity, albeit a very long, hard journey.

More curiously, will I ever truly know for sure?

Or does it even matter?

Is there such a thing as reality? Isn't true love really a self-serving illusion anyway?

Should that be "born" of necessity or "borne" by necessity?

Clearly I have too much free time.

lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I was being serious.