But the question is, what CAUSED that different view? Is it reality based or illusion based? Sure, some may be living in a state of delusion, but that cannot be assumed of all.

yes, I was too.

THANK YOU, Familycomesfirst! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And arrogance can get in the way of protecting those boundries. Those with MB knowledge might be less likely to fall prey to an affair but that doesn't mean they are invulnerable.

Mimi's H may have had all the character in the world before the A but that did not make him immune.

Who gets to judge character? Who gets to judge morals? Does a man of character have sex or procreate out of wedlock? We make comparisons based on our own standards. We'd all like to believe that we are immune.

That to me is arrogance and puts me at risk.

MEDC,

I agree with some others that even people WITH CHARACTER can get addicted to alcohol, drugs or an OP (or a million other things like porn, food etc.) and start acting ethically weak, immoral & destructive if they don’t have firm boundaries in place to protect their weaknesses. [I like to explain the process of sliding across boundaries where someone unwittingly becomes weak & addicted to something, by using the “pan in the water” analogy]. I would say as soon as a person with character become weak & addicted and start behaving destructive because of that, that person temporarily behave without character, integrity, ethics and morals while they continue to have an A or abuse alcohol/drugs and refuse to take the steps to help him/her overcome that addiction. But morality, integrity, character etc. can be regained as soon as they take those steps and stop the destructive behavior.

I 100% agree with Mel that character doesn’t mean someone is perfect (no one is perfect and everyone sin and have weaknesses!) and I also agree with her that it takes character to right a wrong… IMO a person who have NONE character, integrity and conscience will never be able or willing to repent and correct their wrong ways… And some people like that do exist e.g. people who abuse alcohol/drugs their whole lives or serial cheaters who never stop lying and cheating etc… THAT is what I call the difference between people who have NO character and people with character who temporarily behave without integrity, morals etc.

Just as adultery is the culminating act of a dozen or more tiny steps of unfaithfulness, addiction to drugs/alcohol follow a similar pattern [frog in water analogy]. Each step in itself does not seem that serious or much beyond the previous step and as Mel has pointed out, a person get closer and closer without realising untill they get “hooked”. Just as Satan draws a person into adultery one tiny step at a time, he does the same with any other type of addiction (or sin). He does this over time so that the conscience is gradually seared and so that it makes it easier to take "just one more step" thinking such a tiny step won't hurt… And Satan will try his attempts by focusing on the weaknesses & vulnerabilities of ANY person…especially those WITH character because Satan want to see strong and faithful people come to a fall and destroy their own lives and the lives of their loved ones...

The following from the book “The Purpose Driven Life” from the chapters on how to "Grow through and defeat temptation" explains this clearly:

[color:"blue"] There are certain situations that make you more vulnerable to temptation than others. Some circumstances will cause you to stumble almost immediately, while others don’t bother you much. These situations are unique to your weaknesses, and you need to identify them because Satan surely knows them! He knows exactly what trips you up, and he is constantly working to get you into those circumstances. Peter warns, ”Stay alert. The Devil is poised to pounce, and would like nothing better than to catch you napping.”

You should identify your typical pattern of temptation and then prepare to avoid those situations as much as possible. The Bible tells us repeatedly to anticipate and be ready to face temptation. Paul said, ”Don’t give the Devil a chance.” Wise planning reduces temptation. Follow the advice of Proverbs: ”Plan carefully what you do… Avoid evil and walk straight ahead. Don’t go one step off the right way.” “God’s people avoid evil ways, and they protect themselves by watching where they go.”

The Bible guarantees that our cry for help will be heard because Jesus is sympathetic to our struggle. He faced the same temptations we do. He ”understands our weakness, for he faced all of the same temptations we do, yet he did not sin.”

God warns us never to get cocky and overconfident; that is the recipe for disaster. Jeremiah said, “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.” That means we are good at fooling ourselves. Given the right circumstances, any of us are capable of any sin. We must never let down our guard and think we’re beyond temptation.

Don’t carelessly place yourself in tempting situations. Avoid them. Remember that it is easier to stay out of temptation than to get out of it. The Bible says, ”Don’t be so naive and self-confidant. You’re not exempt. You could fall flat on your face as easily as anyone else. Forget about self-confidence; it’s useless. Cultivate God-confidence.”[/color]

Therefore I believe that just as we ALL are wired to have A’s (also according to Dr Harley), we ALL are wired to commit ANY type of sin too… That’s what the Bible teaches me… In fact, every person one this earth commit sin in the eyes of God every single day. I don’t think there is ONE single day in the life of the biggest believers and people with the most integrity and character amongs us who DON’T sin. Ever thought of that? The Bible clearly teaches that every one have sin…only ONE person was without sin and that person was Jesus Christ.

MEDC, you are wrong that drug addiction require and illegal action the first time. What about prescription drugs? Or drugs for medical purposes? Many people start to use prescription drugs (or other type of medication) for the “right reasons” and then become hooked/addicted to them. Many people start to use tranquilizers for their anxiety problems (even over the counter self-help products) and can easily become addicted to it if not carefull. The same with people who start to taking diet pills for losing weight or getting addicted to pain killers. This was just a few examples.

There are good reasons for using prescription drugs so that would fall into the category of alcohol which has good uses as well. I am talking about illicit drugs... it takes a lack of character to put that crack pipe to your mouth for the first time.
I agree with some parts of your post and disagree with others. There is no point for me to go any further with this though as my point is very clear and my belief in this is very solid.

As far as the "Satan" part of the discussion, I will leave that alone except to say that I see that as another way to take responsibility away from the person sinning. When I do something wrong... it is my short coming that allowed it to happen. If it is an issue of character or morality, then obviously that was lacking in me at that time.

Oh... and for those that continue to quote the good doctor that formed this site....for the record, he is not right all the time. He is very learned and obviously very experienced about infidelity...but even in my short time here I have learned that even the good doctor is wrong on occasion....as are we all.

Thank you SUZET AND ALL for your posts....

What a blessing...

This ALL is helping me (and I hope others) learn some important things at this point in the journey...

No, he or she doesn't. That lack of character on my part was obvious and I fully admit it. I then took immediate steps to recover that which I had either not had or lost. Learning from your mistakes and changing requires character... that is why I respect most FWS here. I will be the first person to admit when I have lacked character, morals or integrity. Others here seek to find something else to blame for their own actions. It's the "poor me" attitude that is running rampant in our world and country right now.
I am responsible for all of my actions and it is my actions that are a refelction of me....that is why I carefully chose what I will and won't do.

MEDC

My conclusion... MEDC is perfect, everyone else is flawed beyond repair, especially FWS's. They can never ever redeem themselves enough and should be placed on their own little Island of losers for the rest of their pathetic lives.

MEDC, you said:


Does this mean that you NOW have character, integrity, and morals, but lacked them before when you were behaving in such a fashion?

You comment that "Learning from your mistakes and changing requires character..."

Is this not EXACTLY what the rest of us have been saying?

I don't understand the difference from what you just described about yourself compared to what all the rest of us have been saying about FWS's...could you clarify that for me?

You’ve said numerous times on this forum that you are a Christain MEDC and I thereby assume you believe everything that is written in the Bible, so that’s why I took the confidence to use quotes from “The Purpose Driven Life” (which included quotes from the Bible) in my response to you. Because you’re a Christian and obviously believes in the Bible, I therefore don’t understand why you’ve chosen to ignore and “leaving out” what the Bible teaches about Satan.

All of the following in my previous post is not what I said, but what the Bible teaches e.g.:

[color:"blue"]"Stay alert. The Devil is poised to pounce, and would like nothing better than to catch you napping.”

“Plan carefully what you do… Avoid evil and walk straight ahead. Don’t go one step off the right way.” “God’s people avoid evil ways, and they protect themselves by watching where they go.”

“The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.”

”Don’t be so naive and self-confidant. You’re not exempt. You could fall flat on your face as easily as anyone else. Forget about self-confidence; it’s useless. Cultivate God-confidence.” [/color] [color:"blue"] [/color]

I don’t understand how you interpret the above as “taking responsibility away from the person sinning” MEDC. Nowhere in Script God says Satan’s “attackts” can be used as an “excuse” to commit a specific sin or give in to any temptation. No, He teaches the exact opposite e.g. that we must avoid evil ways and protect ourselves. He also teaches us to not be naive and self-confidant in thinking that we are an exempt and “immune” from a certain temptation or sin… That we must never let down our guard and think we’re beyond temptation of any kind. And the discussions on this thread clearly illustrates the same thing MEDC e.g. that many people – also Christians and those with character - become addicted and commit sin because they do the opposite of what’s instructed in the Bible e.g. to stay alert, don’t let your guard down and avoid evil. This can be done by protecting our weaknesses/vulnerabilites, avoid temptation and keeping strong & healthy boundaries in place. And the point of this thread MEDC is that many people with character DO become addicted because they fail to take these important steps (precautions) to safeguard themselves. It’s no excuse or “blaming actions on something else”…just reality. Even Dr Harley explain this on his website and seminars e.g. how not taking precautions can lead to infidelity. And the main reason many people fail to take precautions and fail to keep strong boundaries during opposite sex friendships is because they think they are immune and that it can't happen to them.

NS: I will freely quote Dr Harely where I see it fit because he is the owner of this website and this website is about applying the MB principles Dr Harley himself has put in place for the purpose of this MB wesite (amongst other things) and saving marriages… Although he might not always be right about every single thing because no one is perfect, he IS right IMO that we all are genetically wired to have A’s. Only a person WITHOUT any sin is not wired to have an A (or commit any other sin) and again, the Bible clearly teaches that all of us are capable of any sin under the right circumstances. That’s why we must be on guard, stay alert, stay on the “narrow” road, avoid temptation and protect ourselves.

Character is a difficult word to define as I think it certainly means different things to different people. To me it revolves around ethics and how true to your ethical stances one remains. I think that it is a sum-total of how you live your life.

To me, as a FWS, I will say that I surrenderd my integrity when I had my affair. I think that, perhaps irrevocably, I damaged my character as well. I'm not sure there. I do know, however that I have tried to heal what I damaged. I admitted my errors. I learned from them. I protect my soft-parts these days and am pretty certain that I won't err in that fasion again. It would have been so much easier to just to have left and not tried to put right what I wronged. To me, at least a little, that has something to do with character.

I think that I am recovering my integrity and I am again living in accordace with my ethics. How does this affect my character? I don't really know.

Mimi:

You try to keep your identity a secret around here. By eliminating references to where you live, etc. And I'm ok with that. But some here do know more about you.

And if you lived right across the street from me, I wouldn't know.

But I could share a beer with your H.

We are survivors of a personal storm of our own creation.

Destroying families, relationships, and other things while in the middle of that storm.

The character come thru afterward, in the things that we do to correct these destructive actions.

MEDC has a point about us FWS not being persons of character, if we drop our pants. Why would we if we were not persons of character.

But afterwards, is all the character I'm concerned about.

Somebody who never succumbs to an affair? I applaud them. Thier personal boundaries, etc., have never been tested. But they might be in the future.

That is one of the things I learned around here. Where that personal boundary was. And how to protect it.

I apologised to Flamingo last night about something in regards to the A. Something that struck me, and I needed to atone for. She told me "that is the man I always knew I could be..."

CN:

I could probably share one with you too.


Many of the folks around here would probably share a beer with me. Many more probably would if they didn't know my history. I'm ok with that. Those are somebodies standards, and I might not meet all of them. That's ok. Some of you might not meet mine either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

LG

LG:

That GLAMOUROUS GODDESS in the LEX..that's me!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I admit that my personal boundary was tested and I failed miserably. But are you saying here that a person who has not had an A it's because their personal boundaries, etc just haven't been tested yet?

LG,

Cheers.


I too think it is great that some were strong enough to be tempted and not to have an affair. I made different choices and have to live with that. I probably even will make some more lousy choices before I am done with this life. . . I don't think I will repeat that one though.

How are you and your W doing?

We are doing alright in Numbland.

LG,

Roll the keg over my way, I would gladly share a beer with you, but only flawed peeps allowed. Oh, wait, that would be EVERYBODY. So all are welcome.

I am not one to hold things against others, as long as they have atoned for them, and learned from them. If you were an SOB, and continued to hurt your wife, your family, as well as some OP's husband and family, well, I'd throw the beer in your face, but that's not who you are TODAY, so I'll raise a pint WITH you.

LG, your advice, along with many WS's advice, has been very much appreciated by me. It takes strength of character to post your past, and present flaws for all of us to see.

What SL said... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Comfortably Numb... that's a great Pink Floyd song!

I have to share something... This morning I get a call as I'm arriving to work from my H. He says "Hello, I'm just calling to make sure my beautiful wife made it in to work okay." I am truly blessed! Thank God I too woke the ****** up and pulled my head out of my [censored] 6 years ago.

My H doesn't hold my flaws over my head, and I don't hold his over his head. Hardly anyone is perfect, even those who THINK they are have issues somewhere in their life. They probably just aren't addressing them.