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So are you here on MB to change yourself, Mel? If so, what are you looking to change? If not...why are you here???
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A reporter interviewing A.J. Muste, who during the Vietnam War stood in front of the White House night after night with a candle, one rainy night asked,"Mr. Muste, do you really think you are going to change the policies of this country by standing out here alone at night with a candle?" Muste replied, "Oh, I don't do it to change the country, I do it so the country won't change me.
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My comments on this thread are about what *I* consider good/poor communication (as it relates to MB 2x4s)....not "poor bastages" and not poor Melody. You are not besieged by folks who want to make you weary and change your style....that's a "victim stance". starfish, I am glad to hear that you are discussing yourself in your posts, rather than trying to change others. I fear that otherwise, disappointment might be your lot in life. And of course, we know you weren't talking about me, I am PEACH and everyone knows it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And honestly, I don't know or care if it is meant personally, so you are ascribing reactions where none exist. Because if you did have a problem with my posts, that would not be my problem, but yours. I know some of your previous threads where you actually called me out by name and even quoted me WERE personal. But again, that was not my problem, but yours. What matters is my own approval and that is my focus. But I didn't comment here because I take it "personally," only to point out the silliness and futility in these endless scrutinization threads targeting the posting styles of others. It takes the focus off of the WHAT that is said to the style, and is nothing but a distraction that never produces any change. Yet, these posts show up like cockroaches, they just never seem to go away. Just like the energizer bunny.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Mel...
When you deliver those 2x4's that you are famous for...what do you hope to see happen as a result? Why do you give them in the first place?
Are you doing it for YOURSELF? Or are you doing it to help someone else? ARE YOU DOING IT IN THE HOPES THAT IT WILL OPEN THEIR EYES AND SEE THE MISTAKE THEY'RE MAKING, IN THE HOPES THAT THEY'LL CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR?
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So are you here on MB to change yourself, Mel? If so, what are you looking to change? If not...why are you here??? You sidestepped my response about the purpose of this forum. Please answer. Please explain how you imagine the purpose of this forum is to CHANGE OTHERS and how that can be achieved.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Read my subsequent posts, Mel.
This forum is here to change others...to help them to see how they can change their own behaviors, so that it in turn changes the behaviors of their wayward spouses, and leads to marital recovery.
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Read my subsequent posts, Mel.
This forum is here to change others...to help them to see how they can change their own behaviors, so that it in turn changes the behaviors of their wayward spouses, and leads to marital recovery. No, Owl, it is not. You cannot change ANYONE, and to believe otherwise is foolish. People can only CHANGE THEMSELVES. People go to counseling to CHANGE THEMSELVES, not their spouse, not their dog, not their neighbor. No one has the power to change ANYONE AGAINST THEIR WILL. I am amazed that I have to say this to a grown man.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I posted this on the self inventory thread. It's the sticky post by Justuss on the EN forum, the first on the list, the intent of the forums, I didn't copy all of it: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3160870Most of all... you will find compassion and love here. As an open forum there will always be some who come here not to help, but with other agendas; however, the vast majority of "members" do not judge... are not demeaning... and have no malice of heart! There are many who are here to simply help... and this includes not just for those betrayed... but the wayards as well!
The people here have all had their lives thrown into a whirlwind of despair, confusion, and sadness.
We've all experience gut wrenching emotions that we though could never exist, in anyone's idea of humanity.
Feelings of hatred, love, disillusionment, envy, rejection, emptiness, deep depression, and on and on... Again, these are felt not just by those betrayed... but in time by the waywards too. Even when no infidelity is involved, similar feelings in marriages gone astray have overwhelmed so many.
Just the books and facts aren't going to get you through it all... not without support. That's where
we come in! We care... because we know how it feels. Believe it... You are not alone!
Come to this forum to vent... to cry... to laugh (a little)... to express your feelings... to advise others... or just to get away!
You're probably going through H*!! right now... don't go it alone... remember... you are not alone!
There is never any guarantee to save all marriages... life doesn't work that way, unfortunately. The Harley's make no guarantees either... but offer the hope of self-improvement, self-healing and a refocusing of one's self to build esteem... and to live a life of satisfication again!
We can, and do guarantee, to give you help... to build back many vital aspects of your life and sanity.
Lor
Married 1983
H's co-worker PA began 1998
Multiple separations
Marital recovery 2000
H deployment 14 mo 2004-2005
Empty nest fall 2006
Whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, gracious...think about these things. Phil 4:8
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So what do you expect to get out of people with your 2x4's, Mel? What is the purpose, if it's not an attempt to get them to change what they're doing?
What's the point of posting on this site, if not to help people by showing them changes that they can make to save their marriages?
Haven't I seen you on many, many, many occasions tell a poster that they need to 'change this behavior or action'? Tell them that they should "stop calling their WS all the time", or "don't be whiny", or "don't break plan B"? Aren't you suggesting that they make changes in their behavior to save their marriage?
I'm equally amazed at a grown woman not grasping the fundamentals on why she posts on this forum in the first place. If you're not posting here to help someone change their actions to save their marriage, I ask you again...why are you here?
Last edited by Owl; 07/10/07 01:51 PM.
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Mel,
I think the worst personal "attack" I've ever made about you was that I thought you had breathed in too many aquanet fumes! (A pitiful offering compared to the assaults you've directed on my character). Whatever you call IT....[censored] roaches or fruitlessness....you might not be able to change "it" or "us".
Imagine that!
You can't change how WE post anymore than we can change how you post.
Again.....deal with it.
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[This forum is here to change others... owl, think about this for a minute. If we could change other people, then how come you have not been successful in changing ME, despite repeated attempts? How come, if we have the POWER to change someone against their will, I have not been able to stop you from doing that? If we had the power to change people to suit our standards, whose standards would we impose? MINE? YOURS? Who gets to decide? My point is that while people CAN CHANGE, you do not have the power to change anyone against their will. Do you understand that this is true?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Wow Lor, I never read that before. Wow. Thank you.
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Mel,
I think the worst personal "attack" I've ever made about you was that I thought you had breathed in too many aquanet fumes! (A pitiful offering compared to the assaults you've directed on my character). Whatever you call IT....[censored] roaches or fruitlessness....you might not be able to change "it" or "us". Nor would I ever try! Hey, I appreciate that you are worried about me taking it personally, but be assured that I don't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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My point is that while people CAN CHANGE, you do not have the power to change anyone against their will. Do you understand that this is true? How many WS's have we heard of that had NO DESIRE AT ALL to rebuild their marriage, and yet were eventually "won back" by their BS, by applying the MB principles? Now. Once again, you and I are wasting pixels talking to each other about this. I won't back down and change. Nor will you. I will continue to post my thoughts and opinions on these threads and this subject when they come up in the future. So will you. I don't think there's anything left to say here, do you?
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And how come you're so dang interested in changing Owl?
Here's some of the those "stylish" MB 2x4s you seem to think are so valuable with their hardline truths and questions: When are you going to be able to take what you dish out? When is your self inventory really going to be about you? Yoda: "You have absolute power" on your board....not this one. Get over yourself.
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And how come you're so dang interested in changing Owl? Honestly, Star, so you agree that its a fruitful, productive tactic to try and change the posting style of others? Because that is exactly what OWL is admitting. He seems to feel he has the power to change the posting styles of others. Isn't that a little passive aggressive? On the other hand, I have no illusions I can change him. But I do have a right to defend myself from his obnoxious, manipulative attempt at trying to change me.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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How many WS's have we heard of that had NO DESIRE AT ALL to rebuild their marriage, and yet were eventually "won back" by their BS, by applying the MB principles? "WON BACK" is very different from changing someone against their will, OWL. We do not tell people here they can FORCE their spouse to change against their will. It is the same with fellow posters. You cannot change others against their will and to attempt to do so is profoundly DISRESPECTFUL. ....and FUTILE and you have personally experienced.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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But, speaking of "value," Owl, what would be the value of endless scrutinization of the posting styles of others? You have engaged in this on a quite frequent basis, I just wonder what it has ever availed you? Is there a goal to this? I can understand if your goal is to improve the way YOU deliver 2x4's, but isn't it futile to endlessly scrutinize others? I disagree that the scrutiny is "endless". It does recur. Is there any place in which you, personally, would draw a line in regards to "posting style" and speak out against such style? If so, what would it be? I think if one of the self-named seksy-kitty/tiger types showed up here and began responding with increasingly sexually innuendoed posts mixed in with good advice - a lot of folks would start speaking out about his/her posting styles. He or she would quickly receive public scrutiny and subsequent responses. If one of our respected, long-time posters started insinuating sexual nuances into their posts - it is the nature of groups that they would get by with it much longer than the tow refugee would. But eventually, some people would start speaking up and expressing concerns, but there would be defenders. Explainers. Justifiers. There are some lines that aren't as easily drawn. Change is not easily forced on another. But iron sharpens iron. What is gained when people disagree about posting styles? People who feel a wrong is being committed speak up. People who were damaged can be encouraged. People who were overly sensitive can see the benefit of getting stronger. People who may be overly legal can examine their need for tenderness. People who may be overly soft can examine their need for commandments. People can learn that their honesty was cruelty. People can learn that their love was lawlessness. People can learn to handle disagreements with maturity and integrity.
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Honestly, Star, so you agree that its a fruitful, productive tactic to try and change the posting style of others? Because that is exactly what OWL is admitting. He seems to feel he has the power to change the posting styles of others. No I don't agree....and I wholly concede that I don't think any of us have the power to "directly" change anyone else. Only through changing ourselves....can we sometimes indirectly change others. But by the same token....each of us resists change and doesn't want others to try and change who we are....that includes you and me. I don't expect my posts to change others.....as in the quote....I don't speak out because I want to change MB....I want to make sure that MB doesn't change ME. Like you....I like who I am. Being "right" is not enough for me if I can't also meet my standards of ethics. I'm not imposing that on you....but I WILL express it.
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graplin.....where have you been all my life? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That was a really fine post with some great insight.
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