i said i'd be ok selling this house _if_ i could move in with her. however, that isn't on offer right now so i'm not selling it. i don't care which house we live in, just that we're together...

so the OM has quit his job at my wife's restaurant. i was almost convinced this might be a prelude to him leaving her. i told her the other day that she would have to give him up completely to get back with me, so she would have to throw him out of the house and fire him from the restaurant. so i thought that this was happening. turns out he's not moving out - he's getting a paying job so that they can pay the rent <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> anyway, i didn't behave very well when i saw her - i was so disappointed...

turns out that she knew he was interviewing, but he didn't tell her that he was leaving. i find that rather odd. they spend all this time together and he didn't tell her??? and she's looking at other jobs too because he was on half-salary and she was on nothing (as a partner).

she's explicitly told me that i still have a chance with her - she wants to talk on the phone every day and gradually build up to lunch and dating. But she says that divorce is a precondition to us getting back together! she feels that marriage is controlling, i think.

i wonder if the principles that everyone is applying here really apply to her - the stuff she's saying is so odd.

Believe me, she doens't want to file either becaues you have her by the short and curlies for ABANDONMENT and adultery. You can pretty much write your own ticket. Those "filled out" papers are just a scare tactic to manipulate you, not a real plan.

Wibbler,

You obviously have NO CLUE what you are doing. If you want to save your marriage, you are going to have to buy in to the MB program and listen to us posters who have EXPERIENCE recovering OUR MARRIAGES. What marriage have you saved? Why don't you give us the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Your WW is not your W anymore. She is an addict. You need to understand that. She will put your children at risk to get her ENs met. She will lie, cheat, and steal to get her ENs met. Any money you give her is money gone, and only enables her behavior. If you had a daughter who was addicted to crack and living on the street, would you just give her some money? No, because she would just spend it on more crack.

Wibbler, there is hope for you, but you need to GET IT. Read up the ENTIRE website. Order HNHN, LB, and SAA. Read the books and put them in action. Fill out your WW's EN questionnaire and figure out what her top ENs are. You have been woefully inept at meeting them. Your WW is having an EXIT AFFAIR. She is trying to withdraw enough from you that she is no longer dependant on you. She doesn't think you can change permanently. And judging by the way you are talking right now, you haven't. You haven't GOTTEN IT. You need to GET IT, and show her you have over a period of time. Your insistance on doing it YOUR WAY and not listening to posters here is evidence that you haven't permanently changed. Of course this does not excuse your behavior, but someone in this marriage has got to step up and take the lead.

The path you are going down will only get you divorced. You need to listen to the posters here and read up on Dr. Harley's principles and truly understand them.

See, if she tells you this, she can dump you and get your money and favorable conditions in the divorce with no fight from you by tricking you into believing she will take you back if you just give her a divorce! And even get you to pay for the divorce and continue paying for she and loverboys LOVE NEST! This is called LEADING YOU ON. A very clever trick!

Unfortunately, she has no intention of taking you back. If she had any intention of taking you back, she would........TAKE YOU BACK. But the only thing she wants to take is your MONEY and PROPERTY in a favorable divorce. She is telling you this so you will COOPERATE while she shafts you and the kids so can carry on her adultery.

If you cooperate, you will end up divorced, with very little money and with no woman, I assure you. It is only a trick.


no, its not odd at all, she is just manipulating you. They all do it.

This statement is just further evidence that you have no clue what you are doing.

Why don't you read some of the other posters stories? Their WWs all say the same thing. They are all "foggy" or sound like aliens. My WW told me the most hurtful and sometimes stupid things ever when she was in the midst of her affair. She was "high" on the affair, and it affected her brain chemistry and ability to think clearly.

YOUR WIFE AND YOUR SITUATION ARE NO DIFFERENT! USE THE MB PRINCIPLES!

If you have some dough to spare call up Steve Harley and get a plan. Otherwise you are just pissing in the wind. Trust me, your plan will not work.

Can you explain the last two components of your question and if possible point me to ANY credible information that would lead you to believe there is a link between a vegitarian diet or one that contains soy products to a low libido.

Yes,
I am curious too about this statement. Do you know of evidence that soy/vegetarian leads to low libido or are you saying you know of evidence that indicates it improves libido? And please, site your sources <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Lake

there are a lot of stories out there that both of these things lower libido... the Journal of Nutrition indicates otherwise for soy in a REAL study.


Here's a link to the soy study...it discusses the health benefits and buried in there somewhere is the sex issue.


http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/10/2590

also to note..

Many of the ingredients or products that target one men's health concern can be useful in other areas as well. Soy protein has cardioprotective effects that combine with a great amino acid profile to make it a good supplement for active and athletic people. Similarly, because sexual function is so dependent on getting blood to the penis, vasodilators and other artery helpers benefit not only lower CVD risk but also help fight erectile problems. And BPH aids, such as saw palmetto, can also be a boost to sexual desire and vitality. With such crossover ability coupled with growing bodies of research and target marketing, men's natural health may well get the attention and sales it deserves.

Here's a quick excerpt from an article gleaned from several studies. If it's a topic you're interested in, googling for it should locate studies that might meet your criteria and confirm the corelation for you. The following isn't intended to be "the final word" - just enought to get you started on the search.

The Effects of Diet on Testosterone

"The body regulates the circulating blood levels of T via several mechanisms. Once in the blood, about 44% of T is bound to a protein called either sex-hormone-binding-globulin (SHBG) or testosterone-binding globulin (TeBG), to indicate the greater affinity for T over estradiol (E2, an estrogen). About 54% of T is bound by albumin and other proteins, leaving 2% to circulate unbound to any protein. This unbound T is termed free testosterone (fT) (1). It is currently believed that only the fT or albumin bound T are truly available to interact with the tissues of the body. "
---
"Subjects consuming vegetarian diets have demonstrated higher SHBG levels (3, 13), lower T levels (12), and lower levels of available T (3). One flaw with many of these studies is isolating the impact of fat on the diet as opposed to fiber, which is also much higher in vegetarian-type diets. "

Sex drive warning to vegetarians and elderly

"Elderly and vegetarian men are being warned about the effect of low protein diets on their sex lives in later years.
Researchers say people who do not eat enough protein are at risk of low testosterone levels which can cause a decline in sexual function as well as muscle loss, reduced red blood cells and damage to bones. "

In regards to soy products:

Dietary soy-phytoestrogens decrease testosterone levels

Soy contains estrogen and can impact estrogen levels - in women AND men.

Warnings on danger of soy formula milk

"PARENTS have been advised against feeding soy formula milk to young babies after researchers in Edinburgh discovered the milk substitute had a significant effect on testosterone levels in male marmosets.

The unexpected findings will reawaken the controversy over soy formula milk (SFM), which contains high levels of phytoestrogens. These mimic the effect of the female hormone oestrogen, although the plant "hormones" are considerably weaker. "

Perhaps that will get you started.

It sounds to me like the original poster's issue may not be low libido if he's using porn instead of having SF with his wife. The issue is more psychological than physiological.

My XH had a libido that never quit - but he eventually preferred porn to SF - that was a vicious circle we entered into and that's for another post - but it also sounds like the original poster has another sexual issue that prompted him to go to a sex therapist in the first place.

IMO there's probably a lot more to this than meets the eye - but DOES amount to a big problem in the bedroom for the M. And that won't be solved with bringing OW to the bedroom either...

There's a lot of dynamics going on here.

Wibbler - DO read and apply the concepts. Don't fund the affair or otherwise enable it. Expose it to her family, her partners and anyone else who can help quash it. Set your boundaries - tell her you're willing to work on the M if she comes home, goes NO CONTACT with the OM and is serious about it.

Nobody can "make" her file for divorce as you stated... she'll either choose to file, or she won't. You've got a lot of legal leverage with abandonment etc. Don't let her fool you - you actually do have the upper hand here, should you choose to play it.

And if she does file, don't go down without a fight - let the courts battle it out for who gets what - don't just sign everything over blindly, because you will get the shaft.

There is lots of hope for your situation - but you need to take control of YOU and act on it.

Best of luck,

JinGA

The same Journal of Nutrition references a study that says,
LINK TO STUDY

"Inverse associations between soy and prostate cancer and the contribution of hormones to prostate cancer prompted the current study to determine whether soy protein could alter serum hormones in men.
...
"Other significant effects included a decrease in testosterone ...and increases in estradiol and estrone...In conclusion, soy protein, regardless of isoflavone content, decreased DHT and DHT/testosterone with minor effects on other hormones."

A reason that soy consumption may be of benefit to cardiovascular health is that it lowers testosterone. However, there are other studies that question that testosterone has a negative impact on cardio health.

Cardiovascular Health

"Historically, testosterone was widely assumed to increase risk of heart disease, based on the relative incidence of heart disease among men vs. women. However, the IOM report found that no clear link – either positive or negative – had been established between testosterone and cardiovascular outcomes."

My intention is not to get into a link-war on this topic. If a man has a low libido causing an issue in his marriage, and if it isn't a relational/emotional/mental problem, it is a safe and easily doable suggestion to alter one's diet.

Diet impacts hormone production. Consumption of soy is recommended for women going through menopause. If the protoestrogens contained in soy products impacts a women hormone levels, the reciprocal is likely true for men.

We live in Oregon - it's a no fault state, adultery doesn't matter. Not sure what abandonment is or if it matters.

OK - so what do you all think about the part quoted above?

BTW, since everyone is getting so excited here, she got the money before I read anything here. It was a mistake on my part to give her anything obviously.

Most of it ($7500) she stole actually. Before she'd left I'd given her some blank checks so that she could fill in what she needed to tide over the restaurant. She then told me that she got the money elsewhere and that she'd destroyed the checks. I found out a few weeks after she left that she'd written out those checks 5 days after she left me and put $5k into payroll for the restaurant and $2.5k for her to buy a new car!

graplin... thanks for the links... so far from what I read the impact on libido is pretty much non existent and the heart protective benefits are well documented...

the issue with not using it as formula are well documented and I believe is right on the carton of sm. There are many that would argue that cows milk is a danger to children as well.

Thanks for the input. I agree that diet is an issue in everything we do...I just haven't seen anything on soy that appears to be conclusive. My own "studies" would suggest otherwise...now, I grant you mine is a study of 1... but being an avid soy consumer (milk and protein powder) and someone whose libido is every bit as strong at 44 as it was at 24, I hope someone does a comprehensive study soon.

MEDC

No doubt


ok - I did that - sex, affection, financial support, family commitment, admiration

Wibbs,

This is the part where you need to make a stand. A woman cannot love a man she does not respect. You have been a pathetic doormat about this whole situation. You need to step up and tell her that she needs to pay you back for the money your stole, cut her off, and insist that the children stay home with you, not at her new love shack. If she declines, then I would start hitting her with consequences.

The first consequence is that she should be exposed to anyone that she wouldn't want to know about the affair. That includes family members, friends, people at the restaurant, etc. The OM's family should also be notified. You don't know who they are? FIGURE IT OUT! This is your family we're talking about. Here is your chance to show her how important you are to her, so FIGHT FOR HER! Next thing I would do is consult with a lawyer about legal separation. Document what she took, and how she left you. You may be able to get primary custody of your children, and she may owe you child support. Quit enabling her. If you wait for her to do the right thing, you'll be disappointed. She is an ADDICT! Are you going to go out there and actually DO SOMETHING, or are you going to just post back about what do we think what she said means? DON'T LISTEN TO A WORD OUT OF HER MOUTH, SHE IS A WS!

She wants to EAT CAKE. She wants to keep you in her back pocket while she continues on her affair. Keep you on the hook in case things don't work out with OM. Of course she's going to string you along, you are her security blanket.

If you're OK with being second best, then carry on - but that is not what the good people here suggest you do.

My XH entertained reconciliation when I approached him about it shortly before we divorced. He wasn't in an affair - we were separated and I knew of his relationship (and he knew I'd had one too after we separated)... but the mindset is the same.

He didn't quite want to let go of me, but he didn't want to let go of her either - so I made the choice to file. I wish I'd been here and applied the principles or I might be in recovery today - but I didn't. So now I'm stuck wanting to reconcile with my XH who isn't quite interested (yet?!).

So I'm working on myself, working on Plan A and just *maybe*, at some point he will want to reconcile. Maybe he won't - but since we're divorced, it's a harder battle.

You don't have to end up in the same boat as me. You can save this but you need to apply the principles NOW.

JinGA

med, I don't mind discussing this. If you want to continue perhaps we should start an OT thread? Let me know.

Release Date: January 25, 2006
The American Heart Association (AHA...ry 17 Rapid Access issue of Circulation.

Wibbler, pardons for the threadjack.

You wrote:


There have been whole threads dedicated to the odd things WSs say. So, no, you aren't hearing anything unique. Your current situation is not a special exception.

Can you list out the behaviors she has said were controlling? Perhaps we can help you put together a plan that will address her concerns. And no, I would not agree to the prerequisite of divorce.

It's very hard for a BS who suddenly realizes the damage they contributed to the demise of the marriage, to not swing to the other extreme because of their guilt. And then think they must respond to their spouse with weenie-actions & words because of their guilt and fear.

How did she go from being a SAHM to being a partner in a restaurant? Do you know the partners? Also, keep in mind, since the two of you are still married, you may be held liable for any debt she accrues in propping up this business.

Translation: if I can fool this poor sucker into thinking he has a chance, I can keep my hand in his pocket. What I think is utter amazement that you fell for it.

if you want to be with someone you...........be with them. You don't move in with another man and threaten divorce. LOOK AT HER ACTIONS and ignore her words. Talk means NOTHING with a wayward.


Have you learned from your mistake and taken her name off the account? Have you protected your assets from future thievery and plunder?