2x4 coming--

Then why are you here? To get help on how to get rid of him and get divorced? Because that's where you're headed. You've had some pros on here telling you what you need to do IF you want to try and recover your marriage (and exposure is only a SMALL part of Plan A). It seems you can't get past YOUR pain and anger. Getting him out of your life (for now) will backfire on you-- if you really want to save your marriage.

You remind me of me. I DIDN'T use MB because I didn't know about it. I nearly lost everything. I lucked out. It wasn't anything I did, believe me (except maybe letting go in the end). I could have avoided alot of my pain (as you can) if I had known about MB. You do.

Why don't you give yourself a deadline-- say one more month? In that month you're going to do everything possible to follow Plan A. Listen to what people are telling you here and implement it. After that month (if you've done a REALLY good Plan A) THEN go to Plan B (after you learn what that entails.)

Otherwise, you ARE spinning your wheels and you DO need to just get it over with.

I know this is hard. I KNOW what the pain feels like. We're here for you. Let us help.

Thanks for the 2X4.

So tell me how you dealt with the daily pain, especially since he says things to be deliberately hurtful. If I try to be pleasant & easy to get along with, it seems to make him mad. If I go to him to get my SF met, (just what I need, not as a tool to get him back, I just don't want to go to someone else), he gets mad (after obliging me). If we have a pleasant day, he turns it around & says it's too late to change things now. He takes me places so he won't have to go alone with friends, all the while telling me not to make anything out of it. If I talk about something I enjoy doing with him, he says I never did before (only he wouldn't give me the chance). I've found out I like alot of things he wouldn't let me do before & that I've tried since this happened (but she likes them also, so he says I like it because of her but I don't). IC has helped me get past some of my hangups left over from childhood & high school.

Did you have a mantra to repeat to help you get thru this??

I am no Plan A expert, not even a novice. But I've read (more like devoured) many of the articles and stories here. I'm sure if you're willing to REALLY REALLY try with a TRUE Plan A, there are some folks here who are better equipped to help you with this.

However, as far as the day to day pain. I think a lot of your pain is coming from you reacting to what he says and does.

I guess you could use this: When he hurts you, you say to yourself... this is not my husband. If you filter everything he says and does with this statement, then it's easier to deal with. You'll know when it's your husband acting and speaking. The guy you're with now is not him.

(((lost)))

BROKEN RECORD COMING...

Get a copy of Surviving an Affair..

I read it daily..almost the entire book is highlighted...I probably could repeat phrases back to you from memory...

We are encouraging you to get some understanding of the MBer's Plans and Concepts...

Your WH is no different than any other WS..sounds like he's reading the EXACT same script that my H did...but I can't explain it to ya as well as Dr. Harley...

We are here to support his philosophy but you have to better understand it first...

You will see how your WH is the same as others...and how you need to respond...

Tonight I told him I saw the guilt over the suicide & the pain he carries. I told him I don't know how he feels just that I see how heavy his burden is. I asked for a legal separation, for him to move the camper across the road & not in the back yard. I told him I realized he was not ready to give up OW & that until he was ready to truly NC her, we couldn't work on our marriage, that I understood & accepted it. I found out that the last 24 yrs have been about him not being accepted by my parents & not about the 2 of us. I also found out that he lied about getting the job, they're just waiting on his background check to come in. But since he smashed his company cell phone & says he will throw the personal one out the window tomorrow, they will never be able to let him know when the job starts.

The load he carries can't be lightened by me. He needs the help of a professional especially since he is severely depressed & having anxiety attacks. I told him I wanted to help him carry that load but he wouldn't let me.

I think this time he's gone for good. After tonight, I don't believe I will ever see him again. I'll have to live with that.

lost,

What you have to understand about Plan A (and Plan B for that matter) is that they are not just references to "try this" and if that doesn't work "try this other thing."

Plan A is designed to show your husband what being married to you could be like if he comes to his senses and decides to really work at recovery. The thing is that it doesn't have much of anything to do with him or his actions or words. It isn't designed to change the way he talks or acts but only to change yourself to show him a better alternative to OW.

If you are spending your time with him discussing the affair, threatening him with divorce or other actions if he won't comply with your wishes or begging and pleading with him to "stop doing this," then he is not going to be attracted to you and the marriage. It is going to make him want to get away even more. When you attempt to give him an ultimatum and force him to decide between you and OW, rest assured that you will not like his decision.

Plan A is described in detail in Surviving An Affair; this is why everyone keeps pointing you to that book. You must understand the plan and the dynamics of the affair in order to make sense out of advice that you get here. You can get the info from this site without reading the book, but you have to fully grasp the idea of Plan A in order to implement it.

It is called a PLAN because it is a specific set of things for you to do. It is not dependent on his actions, reactions or words. It is for you to act in order to attempt to save your marriage, not try to shame, coerce or brow-beat him into submission to your will.

When he says hurtful things, you must remember that ALL wayward spouses do and say pretty much the same things. They lie, they cheat, they even steal from their own families. They don't see any hope for the marriage and so they tell you so. But if you have just had a great time together and he ends the day by telling you that it doesn't matter because it's over between you, it means that you just spent the day having the desired effect since if it had meant nothing to him, he'd have ignored it. Simply bringing it up means you did get through to him and he is trying to push you away again.

A couple things you must know about these forums...

First of all, most posters will try to give advice based on the work of Dr Harley. I can testify to the fact that this stuff works, at least it worked for me. The jury is still out on whether or not my wife and I will be married ten years from now, but 14 months ago we had about as much chance of that as being 21 all over again.

Secondly, the advice given is normally based on experience. Once you've been here a while you not only gain perspective on what worked for you but also what works in general.

Thirdly, this forum is not and cannot hope to be real-time coaching. It is a great place to ask for advice, process that advice and report back or vent depending on how the execution of that advice went in real life in your situation. It can't hope to be IM style of Q & A. The lag-time means that you need to ask questions specific to your situation, glean what you can and then take action on your own. The more you know about what all this stuff is about and how it works means you can fill in gaps in your understanding by asking questions here. But if you don't even grasp the first concepts and try to implement a piece of Plan A without understanding it all (or at least most of it) you will be frustrated and your hope will fail quickly.

You must also understand that Plan A seldom causes the end of an affair. It isn't even designed to do that. It is designed to give you a way to show your husband how good marriage to you can be if and when he ends the affair and commits to working with you at recovery. It is about changing YOU not him. You meet HIS ENs and expect NOTHING (nada, zip, zilch, zero) in return. (That's why it has to be short and because it is short it needs to be effective.)

If he sees the changes in you early and ends the affair and chooses to stay in the marriage, you have a long hard road ahead. If he does not follow this path, then Plan B comes along, not to "up the ante" but to stop the pain...for you and you alone. It removes you from the pain of the affair and gives you back your sanity and life and lets you go into waiting to see if he decides to return to you. By then, you should be strong enough to decide whether or not he is worth the work.

There is no mantra. There is no magic. There is no guarantee of anything in all of this. All there is in this is pain and hard work.

For Plan B to have ANY effect, a good Plan A must precede it. The better Plan A, the more effective Plan B. Neither assures the end of the affair or sustained NC. Both of those things are under his control and Plan A and B are under yours. Plan B is NOT throwing him out because he continues to be disrespectful or hurts you by his actions or words. It is NOT escalating things in preparation for divorce. It is NOT retaliation for his actions. It is simply waiting to see if he gets it together and comes home from a position that prevents you from having to be hurt on a daily basis until then.

Mark

Wow. This seems to be going steadily downhill.

Why do you think he is living with you if he is so miserable?

He sees the changes & says they won't last. I didn't ask him for Plan B last night, just wanted a legal separation, with contact but him living across the street on our property so he wouldn't have to pay rent anywhere, the only ultimatum was we could not work on our problems & build a better life until he was truly ready to NC the OW. I didn't demand he stop seeing her, just told him I understood he can't give her up right now. I was calm & I truly wasn't angry. Even told him I knew he was still in contact with her & that I felt like I understood why: because he was afraid she would kill herself & because her son had threatened him. I let him know that I wasn't angry but upset that he would lie about it. I told him that I wanted to help him carry that heavy load & help him thru it but I knew he wasn't ready for me to be there for him. I don't know what set him off. We were having a calm conversation & he suddenly went off the deep end, smashing his phone, yelling, cussing, etc. I told him that I could see the signs of severe depression caused by the turmoil but that I couldn't help him or take it away until he was ready to work thru the guilt. I never expected it to be easy or be recovered overnight.



I didn't ask him to leave because of his disrespect or actions. I'm not preparing for divorce because I don't want one. One thing I have gotten from this place is I can't back down on his ending the A, that he has to end it on his own & we can't have any recovery until he does. That is all I'm asking him to do & in his own time. All I wanted was to continue working on myself but separate so I don't have to know, every time he comes home, he is still in contact with her. For him to come home to me because he is ready to make a life with me.

See last night, he admitted that our whole marriage has been about my parents not accepting him. I told him that what my parents thought didn't matter, that if it did, I would never have married him in the first place. Our marriage is supposed to be about us, me & him, & not everyone else. Our opinions & wishes are supposed to matter, not those of our extended family. I feel like my marriage was a sham from the very first day because of that.

He needs help that only a professional can give. He needs to recognize the depression & seek help & relief for that. This job means a change, maybe for the better, but I may never see him again either. I know that & accept that. I hope & pray that being there without either of us, he can get his head together, get happy with his job, maybe miss me enough to want to come home & start a new life together. He says if he goes, I & the kids will never see him again. He won't ever come back.

I didn't want Plan B, I wanted Plan A until he gave up the OW or decided he would never come back to me.

Don't know. I only know he is sinking into the black hole of depression & I can't pull him out. He smashed his company phone with a hammer last night. He is totally out of control & losing it. Told our DD#1 this morning in a VM that he needed a place to stay but if he couldn't stay with her he guessed he would just live on the street. She is hysterical.

I don't know what to do. I love him but I can't save him.

BROKEN RECORD:

Read SURVIVING AN AFFAIR.

MIMI ECHO:

Read SURVIVING AN AFFAIR.

You are correct. You can't SAVE him. You can only do what you know is BEST as his WIFE.

He is ADDICTED to the OW and, therefore, is TEMPORARILY INSANE. My H was "NUTS" too. That's the nature of a WS.

I suggest that you calmly tell him he can "Stay at home with YOU". That, in YOUR OPINION, it is "BEST" for him.

Do not let him MOVE you from that POINT OF VIEW.

Continue to state this CALMLY.

Do not go to his LEVEL.

You be the VOICE OF REASON in response to his CRAZINESS.

I'm waiting on the book to come in.

We started talking yesterday & I truly believe he doesn't want to be with OW anymore but he is afraid if he ends it she will kill herself & he will have another suicide on his conscience. He knows he doesn't love her. He said he made a mistake by telling her in the beginning that he loved her & if anyone told her different not to believe them. So she doesn't. She continues to tell everyone he is madly in love with her.

He asked me yesterday if I'd ever been in a situation that I couldn't see a way to get myself out of. I told him I had & he said that's where he is now & he has no answers. I know some of his craziness is caused by the depression. I let him know yesterday that he is the only one who can get help for that but that I would be there for him as much as he would let me. For once, I didn't make a single demand, only stated that he had to end it with her when he was ready before we could even begin to think about recovery.

And then, all of a sudden, he went off like a rocket. The pain he is in & the guilt, I guess, suddenly got to him. I would love to tell him to stay with me, but he won't talk to me right now. I'm waiting for him to calm down. Only thing is he may be gone to the new job by then.

I guess I will have to wait till he contacts me if he leaves for that new job soon. He doesn't want to hear from me now.

I'm glad you have mimi posting to you, she is great at strategizing and knowing what to do. And I agree -- get and read SAA, it helped me a lot. You can get it at any bookstore, our library even has it.

Strategy-wise and day-to-day what to do stuff will make a lot more sense when you've had a chance to read up on those things.

As for this .....

WS's do hurtful things. They say hurtful things. My FWH has told me that he did and said and tried everything he could to make me give up. He used to get dressed up to go out on dates with his OW, right in front of me. I know it hurts, that pain can be searing.

What people told me was to think of him as "going down the rabbit hole", like in Alice in Wonderland. Off to a fantasy land that WASN'T ABOUT ME. It was about fantasy, getting his drug, making himself feel better, justifying things to himself, getting what he wanted .... whatever it was about, it WASN'T ABOUT ME. I have also heard it put this way -- if someone takes the piece of cake that you were saving, it may be because they are selfish and thoughtless -- which are problemw with THEM, but it's not about depriving you of your piece of cake, it's not an atack on you. So you can feel hurt and tortured and deprived of the cake, or you can realize that it's HIS problem, not yours.

Wow, there are people who are so much more eloquent at this than I am .....

We know it hurts. We've been there. And it's good to come here to vent about those hurts, 'cuz there is a LOT of empathy here.

If you let that hurt run you down, though (and it happens to everyone, but then you have to pick yourself up and dust off and keep going), then it's going to end up sabotaging any plan or hope that you have. That's what people mean by don't let HIS actions determine YOURS.

When he says deliberately hurtful things, or gets angry because you're being pleasant, that's a clue that things are actually working. He is in conflict and trying to make you stop making him uncomfortable with his choices.

When he says crazy or cruel things, there are a couple of tools around here that you can use. Look up Orchid's "Reverse Babble". You can also listen and repeat -- and know that what he says is HIS opinion, it's not fact, and it's not your job to change it. Guess what -- that cuts down a lot on the need to argue.

For example .... he says your changes are too late, or it's too late to change things around .... you let him think that or believe it all he wants. And then YOU get to think or believe whatever YOU want -- independent of what he thinks. "I hear you saying that you believe it's too late to save this marriage. I think we still have a chance." Or even just "I hear you saying that you don't think I'm truly enjoying this activity."

Calm and relaxed and happy and YOU -- the you that he fell in love with once already and will do so again if he sees "that" you enough -- regardless of what he says or does or thinks.


Ugh, sorry to be so wordy. There are lots of people MUCH better at this than I am. I'm just trying to tell you about some of the things that worked for me.

The answer to this one is "I know where we can get some answers and some help."

And then a call to the Harleys.



Careful of the judgements. His "craziness" might well be caused by the A. It's not your job to decide if he's crazy, depressed, whatever. Not your job to keep telling him to get help (how would you feel about someone who kept teling you that you're so screwed up that only a professional can help you?).

Your job is to communicate that you believe its possible to save the M, and to show him what a great wife he'd be missing out on if he left.

I know it's hard -- I used to tell my WH that I thought he was on drugs or steroids or something because he was acting so bizarre ... so I know that it's hard to resist the temptation to do that. But it turns out those "accusations" were NOT helpful, NOT productive, they just made him that much more determined to continue his course of action. So no matter how much you think it, it's probably a love-buster that you should avoid.

Your right. When I got home yesterday, he was still in the house, told me that if I'd just waited 10 minutes more he would have been gone. I asked for a separation agreement so I can qualify for insurance & assistance. He refused & said I would have insurance through his company until the divorce was final. I asked if he planned on putting me on the insurance at the new job, he said he wasn't taking it because I wanted him to. I said fine. He left me a note to wash his clothes. I told him I wouldn't & he told me that if I didn't he would & if he had to, I wouldn't be able to wash mine because he would disassemble the machine so I couldn't use it. And I'd better come up with my half of the house payment. If he only pays half the bills, he has plenty of money to live somewhere else. He is also calling friends & family & telling them not to talk to me anymore. I called my XBIL anyway & he said "kill him with kindness", in other words keep on Plan A.

[color:"purple"]
So here's my Plan A.

I will wash his clothes. I have set a basket by the back door of the house for him to put his dirty clothes in. I have taken the satellite box out of DD#2's room so he can hook it up to the camper & be able to watch TV. I even pulled the wire out of the outside wall for him to hook up to. I won't talk to him unless absolutely necessary, we can communicate by notes since he won't come in the house. I don't know if he still has his personal cell, he destroyed his company cell with a hammer Tuesday night. I will let him know that if he needs anything at the grocery store, write it down & put it in the basket by the back door. I will smile & be pleasant when I see him. I will not argue with him about anything. I have been reminded that when his temper flares, he says one thing & does the opposite when he cools down. Maybe. He told me yesterday that I had made him hate me. [/color]

I look back to our conversation Tuesday night, I see now that he flipped because I wanted a separation agreement, he started getting angry then I just didn't realize it & because I stood firm on the condition that to stay married to me, he had to give up the OW, but I was willing to wait for him to do it in his own time. I think the giving her up part was part of the trigger.

I really do see the load he is carrying. I don't pretend to know how he feels, but I can still see how hard this is on him, especially the guilt over the OWH suicide. My WH always tries to take blame & responsibility for anything bad that happens that he is in any way remotely involved in. Not his fault but tell him that. His mother says he has to forgive himself before he can make things right with his family. He says he has been in my position, but not really. By the time he found out I had been seeing someone, I had ended it 4 months earlier & it was strictly EA, nothing physical involved. Mine was already ended, he continued his after I found out so I don't think he really knows how I feel.

My MIL offered me superglue for my mouth because she knows I am just like her & have trouble shutting my trap. I'm working on it really hard & have been proud of myself in the last week or so. But I still let go occasionally.

Now I'm being wordy again. Please read my Plan A. Give me feedback on ways to make it better or something I need to do that I forgot.

Amiok, mimi, everyone,

thanks for the help. My biggest problem is I always try to "fix" things, be the peacemaker, make excuses to people even his friends for his behavior. I'm hoping that if I leave him alone for now, he will go ahead & take that job. He really needs to for his sake & financially. I promise I will make a tremendous effort to stop telling him what is wrong with him. Maybe he will stop telling me what is wrong with me!! He says I think I have all the answers. I have told him I am only responding to what he has told me, that I don't have all the answers so I go to people & places who DO have the answers.

I truly don't think he has cut off contact with her. He is so afraid she will follow through on her threat. He says he can't handle another suicide that he is responsible for. I feel most days that I'm fighting a losing battle. But people who have been in my shoes, tell me that if he really wanted to leave me, wanted a divorce, he would have ended it last year after I found out. That if it was the right thing to do, beyond a shadow of a doubt, he would already be gone. If he really doesn't want to be with me, he would have found another place to live yesterday. He knows he can live with her but he told me he doesn't want to.

You would think she would realize that if he really loved her & wanted her, he wouldn't keep coming home to me. Are these really signs that he still loves me & wants me but can't see it right now?? I'm guessing this is all part of the fog.

Let me know about my Plan A.

Telling him you won't do his laundry is sure NOT Plan A. So I like your new Plan A better. Your husband sounds like a very stubborn man. You might do better to just try to stay out of his way, while meeting the needs that you can.

How is cleaning and organizing your home going?

Better, though I will admit that I have been really down this week & starting to slide a little. Will pick back up starting today.

His mother says he has to forgive himself before he can work on us. He carries guilt from childhood that had nothing to do with him. She knows it & so do I.

Also he tells me that maybe he know the marriage is over, he just don't want to admit it & let go. Who knows!! He has no brain right now. He said his d*** led him into this & he kept letting his d*** do his thinking for him. LOL!!

Well, you know Mimi is suggesting you read the books and attract him back. He IS living with you, no matter what he says or how he acts. So that is hopeful.

If it were me I would concentrate on cleaning the house. Men always seem to like a wife that is busy around the home.