I really like AmI's ideas. How did she get so smart? Maybe you can practice some of them in the mirror. I was like you, too easily drawn into long discussions with the fog man. Her ideas are emotionally supportive, but also geared to getting back to fun things.

It's not your job to cheer him up -- his feelings (cheerful or not) are not your responsibility. You could make everything perfect, and he could still choose to not be cheerful. So don't worry about his response, don't try to "make" him cheer up.

BUT -- in Plan A, it IS part of your job to point out the hope, point out the possibilities, "be the lighthouse".

So don't worry about making him hope, making him feel better, making him cheer up .... you don't have the power to make him do any of those things. But you DO have the power to hang onto your OWN hope, get your OWN positive beliefs and goals in place, work towards them, and communicate those things to him.

In short, quick, simple sentences that you just leave hanging for him. He can do or feel or think what he wasnts from there.



This might be a phrasing thing. There really is a pretty specific structure to listen and repeat. I know it sounds and feels goofy -- sort of juvenille (at least that's how it felt to me), and I used to think that LA was nuts when she told me to do it, until I tried it and it blew me and my H both away.

"I hear you saying that you think (feel, believe, whatever)_________." or
"I think I hear you saying that you think/feel/believe _________. Is that right?"

It's not confrontational, it's not a comment on what he said, it's just re-stating it. It's also not the time to argue, because there really is no way to argue about feelings, anyway. They're his feelings, there isn't a right or wrong. Just like you wouldn't argue with someone who doesn't like blue cheese and try to tell them that it's good.

So, instead of "No. I'm just telling you what you are telling me so I can understand."
You say
"I hear you saying that you believe I'm telling you how to feel when I repeat what I heard you say. Is that right?"

Then just leave it there. There is no reason to argue with him about it, that is his feeling, his belief. Just like not liking blue cheese.

Listen and repeat lets the other person know that you heard them, gives them a chance to clarify, and lets you both get to a common understanding. And if you don't follow it with an immediate argument refuting what they just said, then it also validates that the other persons feelings are real, valid, theirs, and that you respect that.

The other neat little thing that listen and repeat does is it puts up a little mirror and lets the other person hear for themself what's coming across. And also lets them hear when what they are saying doesn't match reality or what they meant. You don't have to point it out, you just ask if you got it right.



It's hard, I'm with you. I still mess it up on a regular basis. Takes lots of practice and lots of getting rid of old habbits and patterns.

As for other help .... the BEST thing I can say is read, read, read. If you can find a financial way to get into MC with the Harley's, that would be great. Until then, read Dr. Harley's books and the articles here until you really understand the concepts -- the Love Bank, Emotional Needs, Love Busters, POJA, etc. Also, read posts from some of the pros around here. There are lots of posters here who are really good at this stuff. LovingAnyway helped me sort through a lot of complicated stuff that I had never learned before about not being able to cause, control or cure the other person, listen and repeat, respecting their feelings without owning them, and so much more. Pepperband, Ark and Noodle are all great at brevity and getting right to the point with what to say to a WS. Find the Lighthouse post, and the similar one about being tossed in the waves. There are LOTS of great strategists around here, too -- way too many to list -- who are great at the step-by-step, this is what to do now kind of stuff. Use the search function, read threads of people who have been or are in your same sitch. See what they did that worked or didn't work. Comment on threads of people who are in a similar spot as you, it's nice to build up a bit of a support group.

Those are the things that worked for me. I read, read, read everything I could absorb. Sometimes I didn't like it and didn't agree with it .... I still read it over and over until I understood it.

If you take the time to do the research, you'll find things that work for you, things that don't, and things that totally challenge everything you ever thought. So my biggest suggestion is to read as much as you possibly can.

-AmI.

Believer,

I really don't feel very smart! I'm just parroting some of the things that I heard when I was in the same place. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


la24,

Here are a couple of threads that I found, but you should also keep looking around for some others, I'm not good at finding them. Try searching for " Plan A " in the search function (I think you need the quotes and spaces to get a decent search). You'll find lots of people who are in or have been in your same spot.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...&PHPSESSID=

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

AmI,

Thanks for those threads. I will read them over & over. Sometimes I feel like I'm trying so hard & no one notices. But sometimes, like when I reminded him that I'm trying to keep the house cleaner & he needs to do his part (put up his clothes which I have never done for him because he likes to do it, instead of leaving them on the chair for 3 days), he is all agreeable & is like, I know. I need to do that to help out. Sometimes, though, he says, yeah, I know you are but I don't think it's gonna last, it never has in the past. But this time, I really am trying harder than ever because I REALLY never understood how important some of these things are to him. The first day I started doing the flylady thing, (8-4-07) was the day he told me we needed to find a way to work things out. He said that before he saw the kitchen. When I got home, he told me how nice the kitchen looked & how much he appreciated my doing it.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The only EN he has that may cause difficulty is financial. That is his No. 1 or 2 & it's my No. 6. Money has never meant that much to me. I can be happy with a little or a lot. My family & simple things in life that don't cost money are more important to me. He doesn't think we can get together on that. I did tell him that when we finally do sit down & really discuss it, we will be able to find some middle ground that makes us both happy. He doesn't think so right now.

I know I can't make him do anything. But the "fixer" in me sometimes comes to the surface even if I don't really want it to. I'm gonna keep on getting up with him & getting his lunch stuff together (right now that is 3 Dr. P's since I buy stuff he can fix at work) whether he thinks he wants me to or not. He didn't complain this morning, just acted surprised when he saw it ready on the counter.

BTW, the Prozac is really helping him. Even his co-workers are noticing. I'm so happy he decided on his own to go back on it.

believer,

Thanks to you for posting. You & AmIok have given me lots to think about & lots of support when I need a boost. Please keep it coming!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> HOORAY!!!!

My book Surviving an Affair came today. I can't wait to read it.

BTW, I got up this morning with him, as usual, & got his lunch sack together. For the first time since this whole thing started, he didn't tell me he didn't want me fixing his lunch or getting his stuff together, that he could do it himself.

Last night, for the second time since he has moved back in the house (he came back in 8-6-07, our anniversary), he put his arm around me & slept against me. I was too afraid to say anything, so, in case he was kinda awake, I put my arm over his & went to sleep. He has been so careful to not touch me, even in his sleep, since he came back in the house. I snuggle up to him anyway. He, LOL, is like a radiator. In the winter time, I don't need to leave the heat on very high because he puts off so much body heat. Even the dogs like to sleep against him when they are cold, LOL.

Baby steps! Baby steps! I keep reminding myself of that.

Babysteps are good things! YAY!!

Sounds like you're going to be burried in reading for a while. Hope you like to read! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There's also another really good thread to read -- the notable posts thread that is stuck at the top of the GQII page. That one has tons of good stuff, all put together. It's a long read, but worthwhile.

It sounds like you're doing pretty well. Nice job on keeping the house up and surprising him with making lunch. Keep it up. My H always told me that he didn't want me getting up with him or making his lunch, either (that was even pre-A) -- but then he'd go to work and brag about it, and tell people how much he liked it. Your H might be doing the same thing.

You mentioned that you feel like you're trying hard and no one notices .... that happens a lot in Plan A. It can feel like a lot of work with no immediate payback or reward. It's pretty tough to sustain that without starting to feel like a martyr, so it's a good idea to start doing the noticing, appreciating and rewarding yourself. Finding the benefits that YOU get out of all the hard work you're putting in. If there's something in it for you -- benefits for you -- then it's less likely to start feeling like "look at all this work I'm doing for him and he doesn't even notice or care, so why even bother?!"

I think that flylady even touches on this concept in a round-about way .... picking up someone else's dirty dish, even if it's their job, because YOU like to live in a clean, uncluttered house. You just do it because it's good for you and you like how the results make you feel, it makes your life easier, whatever it is, there are benefits to you.

Like donating money to a charity. You'll probably never even see the person (animal, tree, whatever) that your donation benefits, and that person/animal/tree will probably not ever come actually thank you, but you do it anyway because there's something in it for you. The good feeling you get for having done something good, the knowledge that you made someone's day that much easeir, the tax deduction .... whatever it is, you got something out of doing it.

Start recognizing those interal rewards and beenfits in the Plan A things you are doing, and the changes you are making. Don't wait for his appreciation, don't wait for him to notice -- that may take forever, or may never even come. But YOU can notice and YOU can appreciate and you can feel good about yourself and your accomplishments.


And it's ok if he thinks it won't last, you can show him that it will. Especially since you're getting something out of it, now, too.


On the money stuff, this is another one of those things that you don't have to agree on, you don't have to "come together" .... you just have to understand that it's important to him. It might not be important to you, and that's ok. But think about what you said a while ago about touching, how he doesn't like to touch or be touched -- how does that make you feel? I'm assuming that affection is one of your top needs. How does it make you feel when he has no interest in or desire to meet that need? What do you think an MC would tell him? "Just give her a hug, anyway, and be enthusiastic about it!" Right?

Well, the same thing applies to his needs. You've got to figure out a way to meet that need, even though it's not important to you and you could get by with less. That doesn't mean you have to be a billionaire and give him the Paris Hilton lifestyle .... but you can ask him what it does mean to him. Ask him what you could do to meet that need for him.

"I understand that this is important to you. What would you like our financial situation to look like? How would you like me to help us get there?"

Just the fact that you're willing to consider his opinion, and care that it's important to him will make a big difference. Just like him snuggling over to you last night made a big difference to you.

I think you're doing great. Keep it up, and have fun with all your reading.

-AmI.

AmI,

Have started reading & am getting lots out of it.



Yeah, he has bragged about how I make his lunch in the past. He has even mentioned to co-workers that he sometimes misses that I don't do it anymore. Several of his co-workers, when I was allowed to go there, always commented about that, saying that they had never had their wives fix their lunches & how lucky he was that his did. And he was the one who said & made me stop. I think that was about the time the PA started. Oh well, he seems to like it now. I do it every morning now while he gets dressed & then we say 'bye as we both leave, him to work & me to get a paper (they won't deliver to me anymore <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />) He hasn't said anything about my getting up so early anymore either. Seems to like it & this morning, he remembered that I needed change for my paper. I told him I'd already gotten it out of his change but thanks. I don't kiss him 'bye but then he usually doesn't let me get that close to him. Hope that changes soon.



Good suggestion & thanks for the suggestions of how to ask. I can certainly do that.

But I have a few questions.

If a clean house was one of his most important EN, then why have an A with an OW who doesn't keep a clean house either? And people who have been in her house say she is bad about cluttering up the floor. And in the beginning, it was all about how she is in bed, how she caresses him, gets him something to drink without asking him, etc. That's where confusion comes in for me.

Should I let him read things from this website that I want him to know or that I think he can relate to, that sound like him? Is it too soon to do that?

In October, the company throws a big catered picnic for the employees of all manufacturing facilities. I don't know if she will be there but he has already mentioned that he doesn't want me to go because she may be there. I don't want him to go without me. Should I be more insistant about this? Should I tell him "Go with me or don't go at all."?


He still tells me every so often that he wants to be able to do what he wants without having to answer to someone. I'm pretty sure this is fog babble but what would be a good answer? The other day it was "I think I need to start a new phase in my life."

He talks like he never had a chance to be single. I was 17 & he was 22 when we married. I still had a year of high school to go. He graduated high school when he was 17. I got preggers with our DD#1 4 mths. after we got married. We didn't think we were ready but we were. When she was about 6 mths old, I went to business school & graduated as an Exec. Secretary. To hear some of the things from his past, he had lots of fun being single. I, on the other hand, have never missed the single life. I like knowing I have someone to come home to. I told him once when he told me he didn't like having to answer to me, "It's not about having to answer to someone, it's about knowing someone cares whether you come home or not. I care whether you come home & I liked knowing you cared if I came home or not."

Just a few questions. Answers from anyone are deeply appreciated & needed. Geez, here I am, gettin' all wordy again. Sorry!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />