Did you end the affair?

Black:

To be sure about something....

Were you planning on going on the business trip with the OW and then at the end letting her know that it is over?

I get that sense, that you were going away with her, and then when you got back you and BS were going to move to a new location.

If this isn't the case, then....

If it is the case, your BS actions make alot more sense.

However.

You state that this M is coming to an end and that it has just been one battle after another since your admission of your EA in the car during the "drive"

Well, you punched her ticket, and she is blowing you up, and everything, yes, everything, is your fault.

And you have had to fight back, tooth and nail to get whatever shred of decency? respect? fairness? that you felt was due to you.

What is your real purpose?

Do you want to stop the divorce?

Do you just want a better deal from the divorce?

Do you really want to heal this M?

Just a small offer of peace from your BS?

Acknowledgement that you are not the same person you were?

It might be far too late to do any of this.

Because your BS is determined in her course of action.

She will never see the changes in you, because she doesn't want too.

You gave her the get out of the Marriage free card, and see is taking it.

And beating you to death the entire time.

Remember, Marriage is for LOVE. Divorce is for MONEY.

And the redress of every possible thing wrong in your marriage up to the final date of dissolution.

Many here will tell you that you cheated, and you should leave the marriage with nothing. No kids, No Money, No respect, Nothing.

That's thier opinion.

If you did change, and you have become a much better person, and understand better how you succumbed to the temptation of an EA and that you have learned from this, and your BS is SURE THAT SHE IS RIGHT. Then, there you have it.

You can only practice damage control and protect your assets as best as possible.

And thats where you find yourself.

Waiting for someone else to change.

And around here? You can't change anybody but yourself.

If you had taken the original divorce offering two years ago, what would it have cost, and how much less would the lawyers have earned?

And where are you today? And what has been agreed to?

And how much better is that for you?

Cut the deal and go.

Because we can't change her, and we are only talking to you. Find someone better to practice your new found life skills on.

They deserve it, so do you.

Be prepared to fight for the visitation that your entitled to. Because STBxW will probably mess with that. And pay the child support you agreed to, and just work with her from the position of caring and strengh and goodwill. And then work it the best you can. Cuz, she has made her choice.

One day, she will wake up and realize what a mean, bitter person she is, and that it wasn't all your fault. We all have choices, she is living the choices SHE MADE.

Protecting your kids from the fallout of that is all that matters.

This site is MarriageBuilders. Even the Harleys admit that not all marriages can or should be saved. They have a number of plans, that make sense, and our supported by good thoery. But they are based upon an individual changing, and having the other partner respond positively to that change. And then both partners embracing these changes and moving to a better relationship. Your BS has decided differently.

Many times around here, it's the WS who is H&!! bent on getting out of the M, not the BS. Your sitch is reversed, and you do want to save it.

But I still get the sense that you are not trying to save the M, as much as trying to get a better deal in the settlement.

This has continued for 2 years since Dday.

Even the most frightful D's tend to work themselves out before that, but the fur that's flying in this one seems to lead me back to the point that you really haven't changed. Or the change only really occurred recently. Everything prior was just words. Or intentions. And we know what road that paves.

Black: Please understand that I was the WS. I was the one who had a 4.5 year LTA with OW. That ended on Dday. But the person I was three days before Dday is not the man I am now. You may feel that way as well. But there are concrete and tangible differences between me Pre-Dday, and after Dday. My D would have looked an awful lot like yours, my BS would have taken me to the cleaners and destroyed my R with my kids. But she signed on to MB as well, and she KNEW I changed. So that is why I am still here.

Black: What do you really want from us?

LG

Hi LG: Thanks so much for your thoughts...I am a different person. I @#^%&*( up...made an aggregious error that does not reflect in totality the person I am, was, or want to be. I don't fail....always proud of that. I failed here and it something I have to try and resolve. I never was committed to divorce....There was no plan to take the OP on this trip...simply a way to distance, fast, completely with no opp. for OP to reach out...total cut off.....BS could have come...no problem

I wanted to try and do what you suggested...figure out how we got so off track...The legal proceedings took off so fast, there was not time to think...This was never about money (I don't think that way)....There has been a protracted custody battle (twice in court) with vigorous attempts to challenge my parenting....and I have to say....for me...that would be the way to kill me. This LB has left me numb and traumatized, too. Dragged through the courts...having to defend my parenting against untruth... Again, do not get me wrong, I accept the feelings of betrayal and anger...I cannot describe how I feel about my children, however....and attacking THIS aspect of my family life has been torture....especially as, it was these beautiful children, that engaged my resolve to attempt something...anything...and NC the OP, and try and figure it out. I haven't had an opening...maybe I don't desereve one, but I still have looked....even recently putting out a few emails to "test the waters"....I am so weary...the fight is out of me....it truly is....

I don't know what I want....I did the damage to start this...I haven't done the damage to finish this....I don't know how to live with the destructiveness...it seems it is a daily assault...as I said, over silly things, like purposefully changing an appointment so I would miss participating in my children's check-ups...What I know is that every moment I am away from my children kills a little part of my soul....I saw my children this morning before work at an appointment...My young son ran to me, and just held on....I just wanted that with my BS...wanted my BS to love me, show me....grow a family with me....all the typical bull*%$ I suppose....now, none of that even matters. I would even live with the destructivenss to be with my children every day...but that feels wrong, too. I know living with the destructiveness would have to stop...that also hurts us and our children....I do not return volley....never will and I am commited to this course. I accept I accept....but, at some point, the sword has to be dropped, doesn't it?

I guess, my question is...this divorce feels wrong. Living together in these specific conditions, feels wrong....the divorce is coming fast....and none of it feels like it is supposed to be this way. I often ask God to show me what is right...no path has emerged....I don't know what to do...and yet the pressure to have to respond to constant legal maneuvering is ever present.....I cannot NOT respond...it all just sucks....

LG...I appreciate your candor and your commentary. Something you said struck me....I have wondered, too, if this was simply the "out" my BS was looking for...and whether I ever really stood a chance....

blackntwrk,

I really feel for you and your family that you are all having to endure this agonizing march into marital oblivion.

What is the communications with your W like right now? Can you even speak to her?

It’s a good thing that you have an appointment with Dr. Harley. I guess that has already occurred today. Let us know what he advises please.

When you say that your W has acted in a spirit of meanness (paraphrased) since you notified her that you were a wayward husband, do you mean that she is attacking your integrity without relent or are you talking about her bringing on an extremely good game for a divorce case?

There is a significant difference.

When you said: [color:"blue"]” I have wondered, too, if this was simply the "out" my BS was looking for...and whether I ever really stood a chance....”[/color], let me tell you that to me this is an extreme disrespectful judgment. It’s also self serving in that it would beguile your attempts at an extra marital affair.

As a formerly betrayed spouse and one that had an EA himself, I can assure you that if this woman would have been ready to just be “rid of you” and move on with her life, she would likely have chosen the path of least resistance and offered terms of D that would have been palatable to you; the goal there to just be done with it and move on.

Your reactions to the processes of coming to terms with the consequences of your own behavior are what I would typically expect from a wayward spouse. Your W is probably acting out of pure intuition and gut instinct.

Is she trying to make your life ****** on Earth to break up your ongoing contact with you’re a partner?

Are you STILL IN YOU’RE A?

When is the last time that you have contacted the OW?

If you choose to fight for your M, even at this point, it is possible to save it. We have seen worse that have turned around to live in the light of goodness once again.

Black:

I wanted to point out one thing in your post:

"I am a different person. I @#^%&*( up...made an aggregious error that does not reflect in totality the person I am, was, or want to be. I don't fail....always proud of that. I failed here and it something I have to try and resolve."

You seem to state that you only made one error.

No, as a wayward, you made a number of errors. The transformation from committed to a M and being faithful, to becoming wayward, can be long for some, and rather short for others. Your M long before you developed an EA with OP had its issues. What were they? From your opinion?

There is so much more at play here.

I wish that all I made was ONE error. So many things were wrong that I really had to transform myself and person.

However, my BS stayed in my corner, and saw my transformation on Dday.

Please answer this question:

You have been NC with the OW for two years. Yes or No?

I will not bother with you any longer unless you answer that question.

You talk around this in your posts, but you never directly answered it. When was NC established?

You claim that all you want is a honest opening from you BS to maybe get back into this M.

And your statement, that Plank Highlighted: ” I have wondered, too, if this was simply the "out" my BS was looking for...and whether I ever really stood a chance....”, Although Plank considers it a DJ, I don't. (No debate here, Plank, I understand your reasoning, but you might have missed my earlier point about this, and if not, that's ok!)

Your BS may just want to be done with you, and wants to redress every wrong in your relationship, and wants to hurt you every way possible. Becasue the one thing about EN's are that your spouse KNOWS what you want in having your EN's met, and when they want to destroy you, they KNOW what those ENS are and hit them hard. (I say spouse, because BS/WS will do this.)

The BS in this case may have just been looking for the reason to dump Black. That's my point. My BS was looking for the reason for about three years before dday. Maybe even longer. If it was MY FAULT, she could have D'ed me overnight. As long as it wasn't HER FAULT. Black's admission of an EA was enough for Mrs Black to make it HIS FAULT.

So, that's why it was an "out" for Mrs. Black.

LG

Black,

Not having emotional needs met is the reason that MB would site as the “problem” with the marriage when things go wrong and either the S wants to have an A, or be done with the M.

I think that either choice is a choice about being frustrated and selfish.

Of course it’s a choice that is fueled through ignorance about MB’ing techniques and self entitlement.

It’s important to not lose scope of the fact that **nearly** every single BS would have said before the A contaminated their M, that they would NOT keep their S if they were an adulterer or committed emotional infidelity.

Where there is a will there is a way. If you are truly committed to trying your best to save your M, you will make the changes that are necessary to meet your W’s emotional needs and change the course of the destructive river that is raging through your life right now.

And I know that since you have taken the step to be here right now, you have the power to influence the relationship that you have with your W in the most positive manner achievable; weather or not your M is rescued.

Best regards,

at time of "drive"....eliminated. EA was short time...engaged therapy immediately. No prior EA/PA......


Probs in M...well...typical, I suppose. Lack of engagement, lack of respect, /secrecy (on other matters) too much independent living with no POA....lack of intimacy/sexual issues, major disagreements on parenting step with no unified front (very split house..."mine" and "other"...never my distinction...always "ours"), different ideas on the direction of the family without resolution....communicatin errors..failure to resolve. As for my error(s)...of course I likely committed dozens. Yet, I was smart enough to know we needed guidance, years ago...asked for it repeatedly. Very specific in my identification and communication of EN's....So sought assistance independently...carried me for a long time....Everything from personal goals to professional took a back seat..always in deference to attempt to meet EN's of BS. I feel I definitely was focused on attempting to meet what was given...was instructed to, ironically enough as it is stated here frequently, watch "action" not words by therapist. Little of either extended. Often very confused as to what BS thinking.....knew there were struggles...could never get movement toward resolution....Even children remarked on withdrawal...Tried to "carry on my wayward son"...if that not appropriate? Just "dealt"....managed home, children...worked...the usual day to day. But we lost our marriage over those years...

Victimized OP, too. Not honest with re: to state of relationship...moving toward separation, implied already was and in negotiation of split. Was unfair here too...

No excuses...what I did was inexcusable...but I can honestly say I never, ever felt like I did at that time. I really did not feel like Plan A's were available...relationship felt dark, punitive, lacking much of the time. The opposite who who and what I am....I understand the principles in MB...intuitively tried to implement for years. Surely I stumbled and messed up during the course...but I feel I tried to cultivate a partnership that was reinforcing, collaborative, TEAM BLACK...Never about me...about us...

It really doesn't matter, I suppose. You are only hearing my side...but the issues were very specific and communicated. We just, for whatever reason, couldn't resolve. But, yes, it could always be a "new day" with a fresh focus...eye toward repair....BS would need to adopt as would I...How does one look past the destructiveness? It is relentless...and listen..I am an individual who will always be open to feedback...and I can be accused of much, for sure...but there is much that doesn't fit...

Interesting Plank....this experience has brought forth an education in human relating..in a total way. And, the MB principles frankly are universal...and in play as I interact with my family, friends (or shall I say, 1/2 a friend), and my darling children whom I want to infuse with a lifetime of Plan A.....I am more honest, compassionate, and supportive...I listen...and I respond with care....I am assertive, but fair...and it is about sustaining and enhancing the job of intimacy....I think back at the time of this A experience, I was struggling with the very dilemma you pose...frustration vs. self-entitlement...What did I want this to be....A) A loveless marriage (like most around me); 2) A compromised marriage where I felt I lost much (was it fair I ask?) 3) Divorce....I felt I had been trying to solicit some commitment to see if we could get to a 4) good marriage... but became frustrated couldn't move....So many LB's prior, and after...it's hard to see past. And I bent....and I compromised...I really felt I did...just wanted reciprocated back....I wanted my BS to be my happiness....We had so much I couldn't wonder what would have been so bad to cause so much withdrawal....But anyway....perhaps my expectations were too high...But I do hear of great relationships...and I envy...

Just wanted to let you all know had a consult with MB counselors (S. Harley). Advised to try and set stage for Ideal Scenario building then try and secure commit to speak with Steve...which I did...received an obtuse answer that didn't say anything...and talked around the issue of Ideal Scenario....did not get an answer to counseling with S....not sure what to do now....Said I was continuing counseling....invited to speak with S too....But, this obtuse answer is typical. A reply with no real answer.... Whenever probs would come up, and I would address directly, this is what would happen...nothing. I could never really get a commit to resolve....which is why we are here...never could resolve. Any ideas??

Been awhile and wanted some guidance....Based on conversations with Steve Harley, I tried to approach my BS several times with the presentation of the "ideal scenario" and referral to Steve for potential counseling...We go to trial tomorrow (third and final)...Lot's of legal maneuvering, switiching of attorney's....but I think this is the end. I very recently contacted my BS and stated that this does not feel right, expressed a commitment to counsel and attempt a repair/rebuild in consideration of our mutual needs with an emphasis on the development and IMPLEMENTATION of a structured plan....I was met with silence again....though continued to try to show my commit to family and offer Plan A repairs whenever presented....Any thoughts?

Divorce is her way of protecting herself from you.
She needs it, and I find it unlikely that she will stop the proceedings. She is being advised by her attorney -- who is trying to secure the best settlement for her.

Perhaps you can start anew after the trial and divorce is over.

But, like LG told you earlier -- you handed her the "get-out-of-marriage-free" card.

Instead of talking about "offers" and "plans" and "attempts"...perhaps you should just start BEING the man you are promising to be.

Something just doesn't sit right with me here -- you don't answer questions very directly. You talk about your wife giving obtuse answers, have you looked at your own???

Have you ended all contact with OW? Or just offered to?
Answer that question directly -- have you ended your affair?

NC implemented.

I have learned...actively towing the line....am the person I want and should be...focus on observable action not just words...BS not listening, I am afraid.

I have tried to create IS, detailed my (current and enacted as well as future) plan for restructuring....implementing my actions for the greater good regardless of response...Indicated my interest and openness to hearing BS's thoughts, needs, and plans for a restructure as well...or simply any expression extended....but BS literally not responding at all..

Are you suggesting continue to try after trial and D?

Should be ending tomorrow...and I am really sad....

I am really glad to hear that.
How long ago did you implement NC? (the length of time may have some bearing on advice...)

Plan A is all about demonstrating changes over time and being consistant. Your wife very likely (and understandably) does not have TRUST in you. It needs to be earned -- and that takes time.

So, kudos to you for doing what you should be doing.
And yes -- I absolutely suggest continuing to try after trial and divorce. If you want a happy marriage with the woman -- pursue it. Just as you did when you were courting her before. She fell in love with you before, there is no reason she won't again. Be the man she loved.

Well..we have gone through days of trial...parade of witnesses (BS)....friends, neighbors...family....the devastation continues....Forced to defend so I can maintain involvement with my precious children ...yet...still trying to reach out....A few nights before trial...again apologized for my behavior and any harm...attempted to inquire about the IS....referred to Harley for consult....stated willing to hear BS and attempt to meet needs....Let BS know that, no matter what, I am so grateful for my children....No response.......Trial continues this week....and it will be done. It seems so hopeless....

black --

You will be divorced at the end of this. The machine has
you in its grip, and won't release you until its over.

Your wife is being advised by her attorney and probably many others that your motives are not pure. She probably believes that you are only doing this to reduce your financial loss. Now is just not the time for your "reaching out."

If you are truly sincere, don't give up. Remain consistant.
Continue apologizing and making amends.

I sincerely hope you are not attacking her back. I understand the need to defend yourself -- but if you are attacking her on one hand, and apologizing on the other -- which do you think she will believe in???

Never...I never have nor will add to this chaos by "attacking" back...I have withstood an assault like none I could have imagined....and I am broken by it and my feelings have decreased significantly..but my want for the IS remains....I suppose you are right....now is not the time....I continue to act with plan A in mind....and I continue to love my children as hard as I can....I am there, responsible, accountable, involved...and I will always. My motives are not financial..never have been...my only goal now is to care for my family the best I can in all ways...and I will never let my children want...ever....I will always do my best to support them in all ways...

Now...as I sit here on the eve of the end of my marriage...I find I cannot even think....I am overcome by sadness...but I am mostly tired. And I cannot think of anything to give that would work....I will continue to be the person I know I can be...and maybe something, one day, will shift....

And, I can't help but think that this is such a waste. I admit to my errors....but I also admit to the constant effort to seek assistance...to try and repair....I event thought about sending one more note tonight....I don't know...My children are with me right now...sleeping...in their beds...a full day of school, football practice, school meetings...dinner, baths...All those things that make a life...they don't even know it's about to be over. They assume it already is....For me...Right now...I just feel like I need someone...anyone....to give me some support....

But...I suppose I walk this alone...

Black

So...the trial is over....I continue to wait for the end....I feel very good that, during the trial, I had the opportunity to say NO...when asked if I wanted a divorce. At least I got to say it out loud...in public...for everyone...including my BS to hear....Interestingly...my BS has now started to respond to some of my written attempts to speak...only the venom continues...and the entire history of our marriage has been re-written...in fact, much of what is said is so off...it is unbelievable...almost strange.....I dont' know what this means....My BS continues to speak of us in terms of it being "over"....and nothing has really changed...only conversation has started and I am confused as to why...especially after hearing nothing for months....Any ideas? Guidance? What do I do when the final papers come in????