|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 39
Member
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 39 |
I'm losing faith here. MarriageBuilders seems like it's got some excellent ideas to prevent marriages from getting to the edge, but once they are there, is there any saving them?
From time to time, I will hear someone talk about the "power" of one spouse standing up for the marriage, but it seems to me to resemble the sound of one hand clapping.
Perhaps there really are differences among cheaters. I don't know... I'm certainly not qualified to create any elaborate theory, but I do suspect that there are some personality traits that are similar between the wayward spouses that turn around and truly come home, and those who don't.
I sincerely believe that a great deal of heart-ache could be avoided if someone would determine what those telltale signs are so that the betrayed-spouse doesn't spend months and years fighting for the restoration of a marriage that could never be repaired, and instead it would open the door for that person to begin to repair the damage to himself or herself and create systems to protect himself or herself from the (often malicious) behavior of the wayward spouse right away.
As it is, Plan A is "doormat" territory and there's almost no guidance on how and when to end it - and it should be a brief period (2 weeks max). My stbxw and I called in for MB counseling for almost 2 months. In that time, my stbxw ate-up the service I was instructed to render to her, and protested mightily when I showed any resistance to being treated as a slave somewhat lower than dirt. My stbxw even left the day after a session w/ our MB counselor where she noted distinct improvements... She lied all along.
By contrast to Plan A, Plan B is taken (or, I should say, to be exact, that it was taken in my case) to be proof of how miserable of a person the WS is and how the WS didn't really want the marriage to work, etc.
All in all, if there were some way to predict whether anything really can be done, then maybe I could have started on my road to independence long before I did.
Maybe I'm just frustrated.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 126
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 126 |
That's a good question. I think some are salvagable. It was not true in my case. I am in the midst of a divorce that is about to get quite ugly. However, I know that some marriages have survived terrible infidelities. I was of the belief that you just had to "stick it out," but that doesn't fix everything.
Just my two cents.
lamby
Me...44yr old F; Divorced Feb. 2008
2 boys, 15 and 13
3 girls, 7,9,and 11
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 254
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 254 |
There are no set rules for relationships and how people are going to react or how or if someones traits, personality or habits will change.
The simple truth or fact is that some not so bad marriages can and do fail, while other rebounds as do some terrible, nightmarish ones. I have seen/read about minor issue that resulted in divorce and total resentment between partners. And I have read about couples that feel apart, went through divorce even married other people, then ultimately ended up married back to one another once again.
Sadly there is no guide line, rule book or map of what the results will be from that which we are all going through. One thing that works for my sit may not work for yours or have the same results. There are to many variables and to many paths that our and our spouses decisions, actions and words can take us. It is all just a roll of the dice.
But, we can control our journey. We can either do our damndest to stay positive and upbeat that we will get though this our darkest hour or we can feel negative and defeated and willing to through in the towel. How we approach things can make all the difference in their results.
Best wishes and stay positive and focused on what is best for you and what you want for you.
"HAVE A GOOD DAY" or do you have something else planned!!!
Married: 15 years
Divorced: 07/07
M: 36 yrs
W: 35 yrs
S: 5 yrs
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,464
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,464 |
It's not the length of time that's important, it's what you do with that time.
Many marriages ARE saved. The fastest horse doesn't always win but it's the best bet.
Most marriages DO NOT recover from infidelity.
I think about 30% recover.
Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,037
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,037 |
My wife simply used Plan A as a weapon aginst me and also used me as a door mat.
She outright lied in MC and tried to have her affair partner harm me.
I watch, and am as a sparrow alone upon the house top.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 204
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 204 |
It is a fair observation.
If a WS truly comes to their senses, is genuinely repentant, and both partners sincerely commit to follow the MB principles - then the odds are certainly good that this marriage can be saved.
However I would guess that this extraordinary set of ideal circumstances is rare. Executing Plan A is then a long-shot risk - and it can certainly lead to the further humiliation of the BS.
And this I think is where you would like to see a rule-of-thumb that indicates when it is likely to succeed and when it is likely to fail. Probably impossible to do as every case is different. There will always be some seemingly hopeless cases where a well-executed Plan A changes everything. Inspiring, but not necessarily an indication of likely success for others.
MB seems to be a very good recipe for prevention of marriage failure - I gave one of the MB books to my daughter who just got married. But in my opinion, saving a marriage that has gone off the rails, especially when infidelity is involved, is nearly impossible.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,714
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,714 |
I think it also depends on whether may factors about the marriage and the affair. What was the state of marriage before the affair? How bad was it before the WS became wayward? Is the affair an exit affair, rather than someone who is torn between two loves? Is the WS a serial cheater who has no remorse and may be driven to have multiple affairs? If not, does the BS acknwoledge he/she needs to make some changes as well?
The problem with saving a marriage that is in tatters for any kind of betrayal, be it financial, emotional, sexual, whatever, is that both people have to be 100% committed at the same time. One prson can start the process but if they other doesn't get on board quickly, within 3 or 4 months, the person working on it will become resentful, and demoralized and give up. Strangely, once the one spouse has given up, often the laggard decides to get to work. Then, it's too late.
Divorced.
2 Girls
Remarried 10/11/08
Widowed 11/5/08
Remarrying 12/17/15
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 204
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 204 |
Excellent point GG! Betrayal can be financial, domestic, sexual, romantic - any of the ENs I suppose. Those 4 are the ones that have me poised to file at this moment.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,714
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,714 |
I'd be hesitant to say that not meeting needs rises to the level of betrayal. However, lying about money, opening credit cards in your spouse's name without their consent, forging your spouse's signature, that type of stuff definitely is a betrayal.
Divorced.
2 Girls
Remarried 10/11/08
Widowed 11/5/08
Remarrying 12/17/15
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,970
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,970 |
I don't believe in too late, GG.
I think you nailed the different time lines the BS and WS are on and why a lot of marriages don't recover from affairs.
I clicked on this thread because of the title...which has those words "any" and "ever" in it.
LA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 39
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 39 |
LA,
Yes... It was a bit of an overarching question.
I was just feeling frustration and despair... sometimes those feelings still flare up. I know that SOMETIMES SOME marriages MIGHT be saved, and its stories of those miracles that the betrayed spouses all-too-often cling to.
I think that a more sensible approach would be to sit the BS down from the beginning and tell him or her, "The odds are overwhelmingly against you. Recovery is a noble goal, and an idea that you shouldn't disregard, but you need to prepare yourself and begin moving towards independence and recovery right away." But... at the early stages of dealing with the reality of an A, I imagine that few BSs could handle that cold dose of truth. I'm sure I would have clung to the remote chance rather than the probable result if I had been given the "straight dope."
I suppose one place to start in analyzing the characteristics of probable success or failure is to see if there is a better 5-year survival for marriages where the BS exposes and fights for the marriage versus where the WS confesses and begs for forgiveness.
I sincerely believe that whether the WS is otherwise "religious" or not is of no consequence, or perhaps may work against recovery. Once the "religious" WS gives into temptation, it's fairly clear that that aspect of their life is not submitted to their professed beliefs, so it is much more likely that they will rationalize away the problem and blame the BS to justify their behavior rather than admit their fault and bring their own behavior into line with their professed beliefs.
Anyway, I guess you can tell, I'm in a more pensive and less pained mood than when I wrote the original post.
Thanks for your thoughts.
WBF
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 204
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 204 |
I sincerely believe that whether the WS is otherwise "religious" or not is of no consequence, or perhaps may work against recovery. Once the "religious" WS gives into temptation, it's fairly clear that that aspect of their life is not submitted to their professed beliefs, so it is much more likely that they will rationalize away the problem and blame the BS to justify their behavior rather than admit their fault and bring their own behavior into line with their professed beliefs. Wow - this statement is either this is the voice of experience or a stunningly perceptive observation. My W's EA involved herself (church youth group leader) and OM (church youth group leader and deacon - also married with children). "soul mates", "brought together by God", blah, blah, blah - barf. That they used the church as a cover for their improper relationship was a bit of irony that was lost on them. The fog of an affair truly blinds those involved. They tried mightily to find scriptural support for what they were doing. Yet all along there were the typical bold-faced lies, purposeful deceptions and half-truths, etc. Of course when the facts came out they were relieved of their positions in the church. OM and family left the church and eventually divorced. Certainly in this case I think the "religious" context makes things worse - especially since religion itself was exploited for purposes of the affair. Hard to think of a more cynical, hypocritical scenario.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 39
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 39 |
Wow - this statement is either this is the voice of experience or a stunningly perceptive observation. Well... I would like to believe I'm "stunningly perceptive" but generally one does not to be a genius to recognize the problem when a Mack truck is rolling over you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Yes, it is an observation from experience. In my case, my stbxw attempted to paint me as the bad-guy... At first she thought she had support from our pastor who, generally, assigns the PRIMARY responsibility for the health of the marriage to the husband. However, when he would not invent new Biblical exceptions for when walking-out/divorce would be acceptable, she vowed never to set foot in the church again, and hasn't. She has, however, finally started going to some church where she lives. I sincerely doubt she's been entirely honest about her situation and status with the pastor(s) there. Oh well... maybe someday she'll get her head on straight.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,714
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,714 |
LA said she didn't believe in "too late."
In my experience, and in some others I know, there is a too late. It happens when there has been so much damage that the person can no longer force him or herself to be open or vulnerable to the person again. Even if the no-longer beloved made huge changes, the effort would be impossible.
My ex, after 2 years of separation, decided he wanted to save our marriage. He asked me to go to counseling, and I agreed even though I really didn't want to. It was my duty to try once more because B wanted to do it. It made me a mess, and I got worse as the sessions went on. After 2 months, I quit. B finally made the effort and started making some of the "easy" changes I had requested years before. (Easy was his word, not mine) It didn't matter. I didn't love him, I couldn't be around him without being a wreck.
So for me, it was too late. Nothing he could have done then would have been enough for my love to return.
Divorced.
2 Girls
Remarried 10/11/08
Widowed 11/5/08
Remarrying 12/17/15
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,970
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,970 |
GG,
I believe in overdue, not too late.
We learn and grow...human dynamic...at the point that your stbx asked you to go to MC with him...I believe you could have chosen to state your truth, "I do not do that which I will resent." That's a healthy, loving boundary enforcement around yourself for any relationship you have.
I belieeve your choices are about you...which is why I say I don't believe in too late. You make yours daily. They are valid...to your code. You learned a lot through a lot of pain. The pain didn't make you choose not to reconcile...your boundaries did, which are choices. And I believe you're right...nothing he could do would have been enough for your loving feelings to return...only your actions would have brought about those feelings.
Reasonable, respectful choice not to...because of your own boundaries, not because he was overdue for acting on his love. And he was overdue. You had a timeline, which is part of your boundary. He crossed that one, too. So I think we're saying the same thing...too late to you meant that your boundary around yourself had a time...and he passed it.
LA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 204
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 204 |
LA said she didn't believe in "too late."
In my experience, and in some others I know, there is a too late. It happens when there has been so much damage that the person can no longer force him or herself to be open or vulnerable to the person again. Even if the no-longer beloved made huge changes, the effort would be impossible.
So for me, it was too late. Nothing he could have done then would have been enough for my love to return. Absolutel-a-diddly-doodly (sorry - saw the Simpsons movie yesterday <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> ) Very well said GG. EXACTLY where I am at right now.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,970
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,970 |
WBF, LA,
Yes... It was a bit of an overarching question.
I was just feeling frustration and despair... sometimes those feelings still flare up. I know that SOMETIMES SOME marriages MIGHT be saved, and its stories of those miracles that the betrayed spouses all-too-often cling to.
[color:"red"] I heard your frustration and despair. I read your other thread, also. I was asking, and not clearly, for you to ask your specific question...because I hear you saying, Why couldn't my marriage have been saved? [/color]
I think that a more sensible approach would be to sit the BS down from the beginning and tell him or her, "The odds are overwhelmingly against you. Recovery is a noble goal, and an idea that you shouldn't disregard, but you need to prepare yourself and begin moving towards independence and recovery right away." But... at the early stages of dealing with the reality of an A, I imagine that few BSs could handle that cold dose of truth. I'm sure I would have clung to the remote chance rather than the probable result if I had been given the "straight dope."
[color:"red"] Do you believe that forewarned is forearmed? I don't. Until you experience what you experience, you cannot know...not by odds or statistics. Sitting down the groom and saying, "the odds are overwhelmingly against you" has no more merit than in recovery. You choose to do or not do. That's the cold dose of truth. You can choose this road for all it brings you and let go the outcome...because in truth, no one knows. Not for you. Not for anyone. What you can guarantee is learning a lot more about yourself, becoming an awesome partner through your own choices...and not knowing the future or being tied to the past. You can gain true freedom through responsibility and your choice to love.
I believe that. I believe that's what so important about the journey...so that when you come to these flare ups, you will know what beliefs they are really coming from...and have true solace in knowing that you did not control the outcome...you chose the journey. [/color]
I suppose one place to start in analyzing the characteristics of probable success or failure is to see if there is a better 5-year survival for marriages where the BS exposes and fights for the marriage versus where the WS confesses and begs for forgiveness.
I sincerely believe that whether the WS is otherwise "religious" or not is of no consequence, or perhaps may work against recovery. Once the "religious" WS gives into temptation, it's fairly clear that that aspect of their life is not submitted to their professed beliefs, so it is much more likely that they will rationalize away the problem and blame the BS to justify their behavior rather than admit their fault and bring their own behavior into line with their professed beliefs.
[color:"red"] I believe every human can become lost. Resentment leads us away...entitlement is what we act on when we've hoarded enough resentment...and a lack of respect, of acting from and acknowledgement of...is the foundation along the way. Gimble is the one here who said "An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect." Identifying those three things in ourselves goes a long way to healing and changing our lives. [/color]
Anyway, I guess you can tell, I'm in a more pensive and less pained mood than when I wrote the original post.
Thanks for your thoughts.
WBF I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge your pain. I know that I had to knock over and look up a lot of my beliefs that had those key words in them..."ever" "any" "all" "forever" "nothing" "everything"...because I picked those up in childhood, long before my adult experience...and I hear them as signals...when I fear greatly, hurt deeply or resent...to let me know I'm reacting to my emotions, not my beliefs. Helpful to me. I'm sharing this with you. To give myself permission to say, "I am hurting a lot right now. I am angry and feel done to again...my hope feels like a useless limb and I don't want to hurt anymore, not one more second" was freeing, connective and kept me in sharing my truth. Your experience has not been mine in regards to divorce...a STBX spouse who refuses to wake up...doesn't make us anything but different. Still equals...both capable...equally in God's hands and loved. And I felt fear when I read your title...overreaching myself...that lurker BS's would read and hear fuzzy logic and choose to end their marriages, also, from statistics, predicting the future...instead of on their own choice. Reasonable, understandable...so is choosing not to...because BS often feel like fools, and to predict the end today, to say you're foolish to choose to recover your marriage (do your half)...well, to me, that's foolish. LA
Last edited by LovingAnyway; 07/30/07 12:00 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,714
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 6,714 |
Ah, LA, we were using the words "Too Late" in different ways. I don't believe that positive changes are too late for a person. I do believe they may come too late to save a relationship.
Oh, I didn't resent going to marriage counseling. It just made me ill. I'm still glad I went. I'm still glad I actively participated in the process. I didn't go and be a lump. But, any engagement with my ex had a deleterious effect on me.
Regardless, the path to recovery is never easy. I think people need fortitude, determination, endurance, humor, and luck to make it.
Looking back, I'm most appreciative of those who told me straight that I was lying to myself. Those who told me repeatedly that my then H had given me his answer by his inaction. I accept that until I was ready, but I really appreciated their courgage in calling it as they saw it.
Last edited by Greengables; 07/30/07 03:13 PM.
Divorced.
2 Girls
Remarried 10/11/08
Widowed 11/5/08
Remarrying 12/17/15
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 39
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 39 |
LA, Thank you. I really do appreciate your thoughtful response.
Something struck me last night as I've begun to read C.S. Lewis's "The Problem of Pain". He said, "... when pain is to be borne, a little courage helps more than much knowledge, a little human sympathy more than much courage, and the least tincture of the love of God more than all." I believe that's true, and I'm someone much more comfortable in the relatively sterile world of the intellectual.
Anyway, I guess my frustration was in not really knowing how bleak the prospect was. I am certain that I would have tried against all odds. I know that I don't regret trying, but I guess if I had had the cold truth at least as a foundation, I wouldn't have been as surprised at the end. I guess what really frustrates me is that I did love my stbxw, and (in a way) I still do, though I know I could never take her back now. I loved her, and I still protect her in that, for example, my attorneys would love to go all out and rip her to shreds in court. It would be easy to do, but out of respect for the years we did have, and out of convictions within me, I won't go down that path. It doesn't help me, and it won't help my children, so I won't seek revenge. She won't see that, or if she does, I suppose she probably sees it as weakness on my part, and she continues to inflict harm on me (financially, especially).
What frustrates me is that as much as I try to do the right thing, pick myself up from my own mistakes, and attempt to avoid them in the future, and generally work towards being the man God would have me be... Pain still seems to find me, and loving and being loved remains either a wistful dream or a distant memory.
I don't mean to wallow. Stress tends to accentuate the pain in the other areas of my life, and professionally, I'm under a lot of stress.
As for scaring lurker BS's... I don't know. I think no matter how many of them (probably the vast majority of them) would choose to stay and fight for the slim hope of recovery, I think it's unkind to send them to tilt at windmills without at least letting them know what kind of battle they're stepping into. You can tell them in love and compassion the magnitude of their choice. Let THEM count the cost. Don't hide the truth in the hopes that they will look back and be glad, for the sake of their own character, that they did fight. If they count the cost, they can at least know what they're really buying... Maybe that was what I was frustrated about with this thread.
WBF
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,970
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,970 |
WBF,
"The Problem of Pain". He said, "... when pain is to be borne, a little courage helps more than much knowledge, a little human sympathy more than much courage, and the least tincture of the love of God more than all."
Thank you (right back at you) for that quote...really resonates with me and my experience. How lovely. You know, FormerlyGeorgiaGuy read C.S. Lewis...and I promised myself to pick him up. I didn't. Depriving myself, now it seems. I'm re-committing to reading him. Any suggestion on which book to begin with?
Would you say you learned to get out of the way of your WW's consequences? Are you firmly out of the way of them now?
I understand very much your own lovely quotation: "What frustrates me is that as much as I try to do the right thing, pick myself up from my own mistakes, and attempt to avoid them in the future, and generally work towards being the man God would have me be... Pain still seems to find me, and loving and being loved remains either a wistful dream or a distant memory."
Your perception is valid...yet it isn't real. God is always reaching for you...and I believe, the pain persists until we get to the real lessons...the ones which open us back up to him...not earning, delighting within and being delighted with...learning to love ourselves intently as God's creation from love...where a lot of our pain is from our own betrayal, our own internal attacks on what he created, as if he made us bad, wrong, incomplete, defective, unworthy and/or unlovable.
Imagine one of your children thinking that of themselves...how much would your soul sear? Do you think it of yourself, in your innermost thoughts? Your very being...not your doing?
I didn't hear a hint of wallow...I heard sharing, honesty...which remains the way you connect to others. And to yourself. Would you consider that God has a new way for you to process stress, instead of handle it?
And as for my fear about BS lurkers...I hear you saying that you want posters here on MB to compassionately and realistically share the big picture of choosing to save their marriage or not...is that because you feel you were sold a bag of goods? (You know, I don't think I understand that phrase...am I saying it right? Maybe a bill of goods? Bill's goods?)
I know that in dealing with a wayward mindset (from both sides), there is so much self-deception, misdirection, lies and false beliefs and feelings...a mess of uncertainty. And yes, a really pain-filled, difficult journey...on a long road...without doubt.
Two things I learned...that's it's okay for me not to know what I don't know yet...(I was a huge DJ'r, diviner, predicter, worrier.)
And that my choice had no cost at all...what I do for me has no sacrifice...what I choose is within my own control...and no matter come what may...God is with me. Unyieldingly...reaching for me...as he does for everyone. I don't travel alone. I can let go the outcome, and let God.
I wasn't judging you for feeling frustrated about the thread...nor saying you were damaging vulnerable newbies...or that you were wrong in anyway. Your opinion matters. Your feelings are real. I guess I wanted to ask if you'd consider more growth...to keep growing...unstoppable for any reason...vent when you must, dance when your heart sings, and when pain is too much, grow.
Thank you for this thread.
LA
|
|
|
Moderated by Ariel, BerlinMB, Denali, Fordude, IrishGreen, MBeliever, MBsurvivor, MBSync, McLovin, Mizar, PhoenixMB, Toujours
|
0 members (),
191
guests, and
67
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums67
Topics133,621
Posts2,323,490
Members71,959
| |
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
|
|
|
|
