I’ve been “off-line” for a while, but checking in from time to time.

Some attitudes, judgments and comments made here were putting me in a funk and I needed some space from a poster or two.

I do have a quandary that I eagerly seek the collective advice on…..

My wife reluctantly agreed to transparency within a couple of weeks of our most recent D-Day last year. I do have account passwords and access to most things except the calls she makes on her work-provided Crackberry. (BTW, for those about to pounce, “reluctantly” is not a DJ – it’s the facts…she didn’t want to do it, called it silly and only provided the information after I made it a non-negotiable item.)

In most other areas, she seems to be committed to rebuilding our marriage, looks to the future together and tells me she loves me. It would appear that I should be happy and basking in the renewed growth of our relationship. But, frankly, after three affairs, I’ve been conditioned not to let my guard down so easily.

The problem…..

She, I believe, is aware that I monitor her work email. “Spying” is the word she uses. We don’t discuss it, I’ve never confirmed that I check it daily, but there are some email messages that she quickly deletes (from specific individuals) and removes from her “Trash” folder while she leaves other messages alone.

She is very sensitive to me "checking up" on her -- explained that her EA was simply a rebellious reaction to my "spying" -- her need for privacy (yes, I know it's a pretty foggy rationalization). So, my "checking up" on her runs silent, runs deep. I'm pretty much in stealth mode most of the time.

My wife has always been friendly, outgoing and (in my “as non-DJ’ing as I can possibly be” opinion) flirtatious. She has acknowledged this as well. She’s a beautiful woman and her friendliness is one of the things that attracts me to her. She even told me one of the “lessons” she learned from a book I asked her to read was that even though she intends her jokes and friendliness as harmless, she can’t know where the other guy is coming from or what’s going on in his life/marriage that he might think it means something more.

Anyway…..

Recently, she exchanged a “playful” series of email with a man in her office about his need for a “Artor’s-wife FIX”…said he’d have to schedule meetings to get his “fix”. Yesterday, this same guy sent her an email that read…

Now, I’m one for a good joke and this is a pretty funny joke.

But it was sent to my wife and only my wife.

Frankly, I wouldn’t think about sending such a joke to any woman other than my wife. I would be embarrassed.

I acknowledge that some of my concern may be my heightened sensitivity due to her affairs (two PA, one EA), but this is setting off alarms in my head.

From what I could tell, she deleted the email (yes, once from her inbox and then specifically deleted this email from her “Trash” and left all the others) and I don’t know if she responded or not. In the past, when I’ve confronted her about questionable email, she has gotten defensive, threatened to change her password and told me she simply deleted it without acknowledging it hoping that would not encourage it.

Part of my problem is that her job requires travel and she knows I’m super-sensitive to any travel she takes with other men (her second PA moved from EA to PA on a business trip). Recently, there have always been other women on the trips that she’s traveled with and “hung out” with. I’m not sure what to do if she has to travel with this guy or one other one with whom she has exchanged “too-friendly” email messages.

My quandary…..

1. Is this “over the line” or inappropriate or am I being too sensitive?

2. If I confront her about it, it confirms that I’m actively reading her email and will send her off (changing passwords, resentment, etc). Do I confront her about this email and ask her to ensure this guy knows it was inappropriate?

3. Or should I simply keep it all on file (yes, I have a copy) and monitor the situation to see if there are any other exchanges?



Sorry this is so long, but I’m really agonizing over this. My gut is to sit back and monitor – watch for more indications that something is going on.

I just don’t know….

Thanks

I would suggest confronting her with it now before this escalates into something worse. and I do believe that could happen, becuase your wife does not have proper boundaries at work and is not sincere about affair proofing your marriage. I can understand why she is so resentful about you checking her email, it is because she has inappropriate boundaries at work with men and has something to hide. That is the problem, Artor.

I work with all men and have for YEARS. I am well liked and get along great with all the guys. I am very attractive and fit but I assure you that no male coworker would ever feel free to send me something like that. Or if he did, he knows he would be handed his [censored]. I have had 2 coworkers in the past 3-4 yrs that did get out of line and they knew about it very quickly. So did my husband.

So, there is something wrong here, Artor. And I think it is the fact that some men feel free to send your wife this. I suspect it is because she has very loose boundaries or even encourages it. The fact that she resents you reading her emails tells a bigger story, though. It tells me she is not in recovery. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. A truly recovering WS would WANT to prove her innocence. Just something to think about.

I will let the pros answer your questions but I would like to comment on this part:


Pre-A and until I was serious about recovery this describes who I was. I thought it was a "personality trait" to be flirtatious. It was actually a sign of low self esteem. She can and needs to change this about herself, it sends the wrong message, but she is still eating up the attention it creates. She will probably try to tell you "it's who she is and can't help it." That is a lie, it can and should be changed.

Has your W ever gone to therapy to deal with her issues? She needs to figure out what is missing in her that causes her to act the way she does.

ML is right about her boundaries. I don't know much of your story, but I do see she is still very vulnerable for more A's until she figures herself out. People can be friendly and still be well liked. Take it from a BTDT POV it's the flirtatious piece of puzzle that screames she needs to grow up and drop like a hot potato.

I will say the email is inappropriate and if she is truly being transparent she would have shared it.

LC

I can't speak to your situation but I've had that same joke emailed to me about 4 times in the last month. All from my female friends.

I don't have male friends that would send anything like that so it's a non-issue, however I'm in an email group that I'd be likely to get such a joke, and it's composed of men and women (it's a hobby group and we email jokes around).

I'd be more curious about the way she dealt with the joke - deleted/trashed....but then again if she's paranoid... hard to say.

JinGA

Hi Artor,

I'm sorry about your quandary. When I read about the joke, I thought the same thing as Mel, but wasn't sure how to word it.

Artor, you know my story better than most (I'll never forget my gratitude to you for posting to my goose-egging thread in the weeeee hours of that Jan. 15th morning. And you followed up for several weeks, helping us begin our recovery rollercoaster).

That being said, if your wife were my husband, I would confront him with the possibility that this may be his 5th (and final) strike.

And he knows it.

That may be the difference between your wife and my husband. It appears that she does NOT get it yet.

My FWH welcomes my checking-up on him because it shows that I care and he's proud of the fact that he has nothing to hide. Now. (Before D-Day #4, he was resentful, too.)

When I told my husband he was right....that he should go live in his truck on D-Day #4, he said it was the jolt that he needed.

What might it take to jolt your wife?

Ace

Artor:

Recieving an email in and of it self is innocent. Jokes, etc.

It the hiding part that is troublesome.

I delete a lot of stuff. Cuz, I want to get rid of the clutter in my email in/out/draft folders.

However, if one sends 10 messages to the trash, and then goes in to the trash folder to double delete only one of those items, she is hiding something.

Mel talked about the boundaries. Your wife has low ones.

Why? Could be self-esteem issues like LC mentioned, could be anything.

But that is what Harley trys to talk about with an Affair-proof M. Establish those boundaries and do not let them get crossed. And establishing early warning signs that something is inappropriate.

If your W had forwarded this Joke email to you and said "WE NEED to protect ourselves from this guy." "He wants to get too close"

How would that feel?

180 degrees different from how you feel now.

Artor, chin up. This is one of the tough ones to establish. She may think that she is flirting, or being one of the "guys". No, its one of the boundaries I learned about and established with my W.

LG

Thanks Mel--

I believe it is a boundaries issue, but haven't been able to communicate this to her.

Your relationship with the men at your work is something I've wished for in my wife's case. She is very likable and friendly and can be a "social" person without being flirtatious. I'd like the men at her work to know there is a line that she will ensure they won't cross.

In the "friendly" email exchange between her and this guy, he remarked he might have to schedule meetings to get his "fix" and she replied that he'd need to schedule them daily. A lighthearted response, but disturbing and potentially encouraging more "joking".

I am thinking hard about all input here regarding her dislike of my "checking up".

In the past, I have, in her opinion, overreacted to some email threads as being too friendly or inappropriate. This has left her skittish about telling me about these things. I have tried to be better about how I approach her and I will take a deep breath before I bring this one up so she doesn't immediately put up a defensive wall.

Thanks

Hi LC--

She has always been flirtatious. Has bothered me much of our relationship, but my attempts to explain my feelings have always come across as irrational jealousy.

I have had conversations with her where I've seen low self-esteem surface and have always tried to build her up and compliment her intelligence, appearance, talents, etc.

Maybe it doesn't mean as much to her coming from me as it does from someone who's not her husband (she frequently dismisses my comments as "you have to say that").

She has said "it's the way I am" in the past.

Therapy? No, she refuses to go to a counselor. Got her to attend four marriage counseling sessions and when I suggested individual counseling to help deal with any issues she has, she steadfastly refused. "No help needed here."

Thanks

Thanks, JinGA --

If the email had gone to a group of people, I wouldn't be so spun up as it clearly wasn't "targetted" at my wife. But it went to her and only her. That's what bothers me.

She deleted it (don't know if she responded) and then deleted it and only it from her "Trash".

Yes, I think she's paranoid that I'd find it.

Still trying to figure out what that says.....

Hi Ace--

Long time no talk (type)....

We did have a "shake up" several months ago when I handed her my wedding ring after another in a series of "You need to just get over it" declarations.

That seemed to bring her head back in the game for a time.

She pretty much knows that another affair is the end of the road. Not sure why (somedays) I'm still here except for my kids.

I'll see how our coversation about this email goes.

Thanks

LG--

I agree that she is not in control of what others send her, but the fact that another man felt comfortable sending it to her (in this day and age of sexual harrassment suits) and that she hid it is indeed troublesome.

Her deliberate deletion of that and only that message (requires extra effort) tells me she was afraid it would be seen. Is she hiding the fact that she's "that friendly" with this guy from me or worried that I'd overreact to a innocent email? Who knows?

You are correct, if she had told me about the email or sent it to me with the message you described, I'd feel much safer and better about it -- even proud.

Thanks

This is because she has things to hide. She is not being transparent. My H has access to all of my email accounts and online activity. I have no idea if he reads my stuff, but if he did, it wouldn't matter.

After I confessed and spilled all the details of my A my H firmly stated, "You do know this is your one and only chance, right?" Yes, I knew it, I felt it. There is no way I would take another chance. Please know this next part may sound harsh and I apologize if it does. It's not my intent to be hurtful, but this might be.

She still sees an opening. I remember early on when my H didn't leave me, I thought, "Hmmm, I got away with that, I can do just about anything and he won't leave." Then I became serious about recovery and changed "my ways". I don't view it like that any longer. Now I feel fortunate he didn't leave.

Perhaps she is viewing your marriage this way, I don't know. She isn't serious about recovery because she is still doing the old stuff that got her in trouble in the first place. What will it take for her to see you are serious? I don't know. I do know you are a lot more understanding than my H would be.

LC

Artor, I don't think I would confront her right away. Chances are she accepts this type of e-mail all the time because she believes it helps advance her career. i.e. people hit on her either subtly or overtly all the time, if she objects, she becomes an outcast, so she goes along with it. (I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying some people operate that way).

If you confront her about it her response will be, "those things mean nothing, see I knew if you saw my e-mail you would get the wrong idea" Some folks have a hard time connecting the dots between allowing people to constantly hit on you just might lead to an A.

I would try to gather more e-mails and see if this is the way a lot of people treat her or if it is one specific guy. If its everyone, then eventually she is going to have to leave that job. If its one guy, you could perhaps confront him.

Plus I think there is some benefit to mixing up the time table between when you find something out and when you discuss it with a WS. If they are hiding an on-going A, it allows them to think their attempts at hiding it are successful and can give you more information.

About what LC said, its definately a personality trait your wife needs to address. I don't know if this starts as a self esteem issue or becomes one, but I think my WW had this problem. I think it started as her being "one of the guys", then eventually people are hitting on her, she lets it slide to advance her career, then eventually she can't stop it. I think my WW doubts whether her career success was based on merit or being flirtatious. That's a self esteem killer. Its probably terrifying to address it, because what if you find out that your success was due to being flirtatious.

Hey Artor!

It is good to "see" you, I had been wondering what happened to you!



Artor...my friend....you KNOW what this says. It says that she is hiding something. Deep down, you know this.

Yes, this is about your wife's poor boundaries, but there is nothing you can do to force her to instill boundaries.

All you can do is instill YOUR boundaries. What are they?

PLEASE stop being afraid to check her email, or of pissing her off. I did this for WAY too long and you saw where that got me.

There is such thing as BS fog as well, and you are in it. You are allowing her to control way too much...she is NOT being completely transparent, and you are allowing it. This is a recipe for disaster. I know from experience.

Instill some boundaries, Artor. Stop being afraid.

Call me old fashioned but that email sent to an opposite sex co-worker is IMHO inappropriate.

Have you ever asked her to POJA what she can do to make you feel safe?

She is defensive because she is doing something WRONG. If my husband tells me a co-worker is too friendly or inappropriate, I don't get defensive, I promise to end communications with that coworker. And he is USUALLY RIGHT about it. Even if he were WRONG, out of respect for my H, I would stay away from that coworker.

Secondly, women who flirt with guys at work are NOT well REGARDED or RESPECTED. They are disliked by the women and the men talk disparingly about them behind their back. IT IS A CAREER KILLER.

It astonishes me that some females are still so damn dense that they don't realize this. It is not the FLIRTY ones who get promoted, but the ones who can be TRUSTED AND RESPECTED and counted on to behave in a BUSINESSLIKE MANNER in all settings. The flirty ones are joked about, so no manager with any salt is going to promote such a female and leave himself open for criticism for endorsing her.

Artor,

Listen to that little voice that is telling you something isn't right. If you ignore this situation, that little voice will become louder and louder. The fact that you are uneasy about your wife's actions and words speaks volumes. You are not by nature a paranoid person. Yet something is making you feel paranoid. SHE is making you feel that way. I don't think she's learned her lesson, yet.

What will it take for her to learn?

I would not tell her...I would continue to monitor in stealth mode. I think this is not enough proof of anything to blow your cover.

The deletion and trash cleanup while suspicious could just be as innocent as she thought it was inappropriate for work and did not want it on her computer. I have received emails from friends on my work address that I deemed NWS (not work safe) and completely removed them from my computer because I did not want to be associated with the email and even if someone did see them I wanted to be able to say I cannot control what I receive but I got rid of it immediately.

Anyway...personally I think you are better off monitoring in stealth mode until you have something more concrete. It does seem to me you have good reason to monitor (3 As) and there is definitely some suspicious behavior but you are better off continuing to monitor for a more serious transgression. I think generally the perp will become lazy in time and you will get more and more info when you are in stealth mode.

HERe is the thing, though, y'all. I don't believe the solution is in catching her in another affair, but in addressing the root of the problem, her lack of boundaries and lack of committment to affair proofing her marriage.

We already know this is going to lead to another affair. She has had 3 of them and has done nothing to affair proof the marriage.

The problem is that she is a freeloader in this marriage and he doesn't need to spy on her to know that. Catching her in an affair didn't resolve the problem the first time, I am not sure how catching her again will change anything.

Artor, have you read Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders? That might be an eyeopening book for you.

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

eaglesoar--

I fully agree on the inappropriateness of the email. This is why I'm so impacted by it.

Mel was right that my wife's lack of boundaries (or strong ones) provided an environment where this guy felt safe (or at least OK in sending it).

We have had numerous conversations about her behavior and "friendliness". When she told me what she learned from the book I asked her to read, I thought, "Now she gets it -- now she sees that her friendliness and flirtations are sometimes viewed as invitations."

I guess I jumped the gun on my celebration.

We will need to talk about what she can do some more.