Thank you believer for your help. I did make myself completely unavailable today. My WH called our home a few times and sent a lot of TM asking if I was ignoring him. I thought I should reply so he couldn't say I was being "rude", so I TM him back and stated I wasn't ignoring him, I was visiting with family (which I was).

I will continue to make myself less available. Though this will make him more irritating to be around since he's a little P/A. He will see my withdrawl as a way of getting back at him for his A. and will use it as an excuse to be rude in return (and also to have more SF with OW#1 since that was what he told me lead to their "encounter" in the first place...I was being "mean" to him after he left me so he felt he no longer wanted to be married to me and he slept with her....what a load of garbage, huh?)

Anyway, I'm not sure this will lead to a great plan A in the end because my WH uses anything behavior he deems rude to justify his own actions. But for my own sanity, I can't see him everyday knowing what he's doing and feeling used by him so I will have to be around him less.

You can practice being very friendly, but not at his beck and call. I think he needs to realize that you have a life too. He does seem very attached to you. Usually they just conveniently forget that they have a wife and child.

Be sure to secure your financial protection so he can't use that against you.

Well, when he came home the first time, I allowed him to return without fulfilling any requirements/boundaries. He told me he wanted to come home and that he missed the kids and me and that he had ended it with the OW. He had answered every question I asked about affair this time, so I thought there was openness and honesty that wasn't there before.

But I really knew all along that he wasn't going to be willing to do what was necessary. He was just beginning to feel the pain, and I let him back in.

Looking back on it, I needed to state clear boundaries that included NC letter. He was not willing to send a letter as he said he had already talked with her, given her a LONG letter, and ended it with her.

For him to come home this time, there will be certain things that MUST be done to PROVE himself REAL.

I suggest you think now, what are your requirements. I had recommendations from the board, but that night, it all happened quickly and I wanted him home so badly. He was able to convince me that he had a plausible reason not to send NC letter. It didn't take long to realize that his heart was still not home.

My only advice to you is don't let him come home until he meets ALL of your requirements...no matter what. That's what it will take for me next time. If he is willing to meet all my requirements, then I will know it's the real deal.

Oh SMB! I know the feeling of just wanting to let the WH come home and forget all about the A. just to have one day of normalcy again!!! Though I would like to think I that have more will power to resist him, I get afraid sometimes that I would do the same if my WH poured on the charm and told me how much he loved and missed me and our DS.

My IC asked me yesterday what would be a deal breaker for our M. and I replied "the things he's already done". She then basically told me the same thing you said about not allowing him back UNLESS he was willing to prove that he had changed and was 100% committed to working on the M. I agree with both of you. He would have to show me with his actions that he wanted to come home and was willing to make some drastic changes to our R.

But since my old H. wasn't very open about communicating and tended to avoid "difficult" situations in the past, I don't have much hope that he will be the fighter that he needs to be in order to save our M. He tended to take the path of least resistance in every aspect of his life.

If he thought something would upset me..he didn't tell me. Though I hate to admit this, he probably was right in his reluctance. I was not the most tolerant wife when it came to his blatant, poor financial choices. That sounds really bad, like a DJ, but he was/is a poor money manager and admits it.

He also stated that he felt as though he could never go anywhere without making me angry (which isn't entirely true since he went to plenty of concerts, out of town trips for business, fishing when he wanted). My irritation over his activities did not stem from him wanting to do these things, but his wanting to do them ALONE. If he had wanted to make them family outings, I would have gone.

But I can see why he felt the way he did about somethings. I was at fault many times. I just don't know if it's possible for a second chance after all that's happened.

If nothing else, I feel that I will have learned a great deal about how to be a good wife in my next marriage. I've been forced to examine the fact that I was a bit controlling with my H. and I was not thrilled to see it. I find that I tend to want control financially because of how my parent's relationship was (my dad had all the money and never let my SAHM make any financial decisions.) So I made sure that I was 'in charge' of how the money was spent, even if it was only what I earned. Though I feel that I made wise financial choices, I still think that I didn't go about convincing my H. of why I felt my way was better. Instead I just made demands and he felt controlled.

Anyway, the one positive in this situation is the vast amount of introspection that occurs because of it. I see my failings and can admit them. I can also see WHY I did the things I did and that helps even more to stop my controlling behavior.

The most startling thing to realize is that even though I fought for control in order to protect myself, I got hurt anyway. I found out that no matter how much leverage I tried to exert, I still could not stop my H. from betraying me. That is huge for me. I will now go into my future relationships with the knowledge that both people must want to be together and they must work at making each other happy. It will make me appreciate the love that I'm given by my future (or current husband, if he's willing) all the more.

Hi Saralynn,

You seem to be doing a great job of Plan A.

Don't worry too much about it being a LB if you make yourself less available to your WH. Something isn't automatically an LB just because the WS gets angry about it. For example, exposure usually angers the WS but it's not an LB. It's pretty common for WS's to try to contol the BS, and doing that with anger is pretty typical too. Don't let your WH think he can bully you with anger or threats or you'll just reinforce his use of anger/threats! Don't try to appease him. You have every right to make yourself less available to him.

I've read that males need to pursue... when you allow him to have access to you in a sense you are allowing him to make you less desirable, less exciting, than the OW. IMHO WH's take their BW's very much for granted. The WH thinx of his BW as a possession of his. He doesn't appreciate what he feels he's entitled to...

My XWH had some very strange boundary issues... Sounds like your WH has some similar weird notions. Continue with Plan A. Do spend time with him sometimes... but do NOT let him control you. You don't need to be home waiting for him to come by or to call AND you don't need to tell him where you are!

When my WH tried to cross boundaries I would (sweetly) ask him if he was saying he wanted US to share such info about ourselves with each other. Of course, he did NOT want to tell ME where he was, what he was spending money on, etc. LOL He would just get angry at me (because I wouldn't agree to a double standard) and drop the subject... for a while...

MM, thank you so much for following my thread. It helps so much to have your comments and suggestions.

After having no contact on Monday except for 2 TM, my WH came over the next evening. However, he has completely stopped calling to let me know exactly WHEN he will show up. I may need to stress that it would be NICE to know when he's coming over and not allow him to show up when he wants. I think he does this because he figures I won't be going out anywhere after 7pm with our DS because I usually don't.

Anyway. When he showed up, I went outside and stayed there for about 1 hour. He played (FINALLY) with our DS and seemed to enjoy his time with him. When I came back in later, my WH was considerably more polite and tried to engage me in conversations. I tried to be polite back, but found I didn't have much to say. The visit felt pretty awkward (but most of them do anyway.)

The real development is that my FIL has gotten himself into some pretty serious trouble with the law and will probably be incarcerated for a fairly long time. My WH was devastated over the news and called me twice yesterday to talk (though our conversations weren't longer than 7 minutes). I am very sad for my FIL, but he's made very similar choices to those that my WH is NOW making (i.e. cheating on his wife, smoking, drinking, selfish behavior, etc). The only difference is that my WH has been able to keep a steady job and for the last 14 was pretty much a moral and upstanding guy.

I am hoping that this situation will blow away some of the fog and make my WH realize the extreme importance of a stable, moral father in his children's lives. Please pray for him that he will see this and the he and my FIL that will find Christ.

Another upcoming event is that my WH's apartment will become available 9/15. When I commented about it to my WH, he became agitated and said he "didn't want to talk about it" and he was worried because he's "never lived alone before". I was pretty confused since my WH has REPEATEDLY stressed that he "just wants to live alone!!!". This makes me wonder if he isn't actually considering living with the OW. I guess I will find out soon enough. Though I have no worries about what effect this will have on their relationship. My WH has already made the prophetic statement that he would "hate her" if they lived together.

It will just be interesting to see how things turn out in the next few weeks.

are you planning to have him present for the delivery of your baby?

My mom will probably go with me to the hospital since it's a scheduled c-section and my WH will have our DS. He said he would bring him to visit after the delivery. But my WH probably won't stay more than a few hours. What's going to be really awkward is that this will be the first time my WH and my mom will have seen each other since a week before D-Day back in June.

The rest of my family will probably come to visit later in the evening so there won't be much contact with my WH and anyone else.

I am sort of feeling like it will be a total invasion of my personal life to have him there. It's weird, but it seems like he doesn't belong there and doesn't deserve to show his horrible WH face at an event that is supposed to be joyous for my H and I.

But maybe seeing his newborn daughter will be a wake up call for him...who knows.

Hi Saralynn,

Sounds as if your WH isn't too excited about living alone after all. That could be good news. And like you said, even if he moves in with OW he might not like that either.

If I were you I would get a babysitter to watch your son a couple nights per week - so you're not home when WH decides to just drop by. And I would also make a point to go somewhere with your son after 7 PM sometimes. Then when your WH asks where you were respond with the "oh are you saying you want US to be accountable TO EACH OTHER about where we are?"... Then he'll complain that he came all the way over but you weren't home... and then you can suggest he simply call before coming over so he doesn't waste his gas and time. Say this all without sarcasm - just somewhere between matter-of-fact and 'whatever'...

Oh, and do NOT tell him where you were (unless of course he agrees to be accountable to YOU regarding HIS whereabouts)

Thanks MM for the suggestions. I don't have a babysitter for my DS because I am a SAHM. My own mom watches him when I'm not here, but my WH cannot stand her right now (though he did try to be civil before the A.) so it wouldn't work to have her here either. But I will try not to be home at least a few days past 7:00 and I will leave while he's visiting our DS a few of the other days. I don't think he will care where I go, just that I am gone... He won't like it one bit.

It was another poor visit with the WH though. He was pretty angry over my FIL's situation and tried to get me to fight with him over stupid things. I just calmly asked him not to speak to me the way he was and asked him why he couldn't talk to me like a normal person. He toned down a bit, but was still agitated.

It's weird, but when he gets angry at me now, I don't take it as personally as I did before the A. If he would have spoken to me that way before, I would have been all over him like white on rice. Now, I just don't care about his foolish, irrational anger. I feel sorry for him more than anything since he isn't even mature enough to have a normal conversation when he's angry.

I question whether or not he is worth having back at this point. I know that this particular habit of lashing out at the nearest and least threatening bystander is not merely WH fog, it is an old pattern with my H. I'm not sure he will ever outgrow it.

"I don't have a babysitter for my DS because I am a SAHM. My own mom watches him when I'm not here, but my WH cannot stand her right now (though he did try to be civil before the A.) so it wouldn't work to have her here either."

I was a SAHM too plus we moved VERY frequently because of my WH's career. Sometimes I would trade babysitting with another SAHM - you watch their kids for a couple of hours while they go grocery shopping and then they can watch your son for a couple of hours while you go grocery shopping (but don't tell your WH you're just at the grocery store - don't tell him anything about where you went).

And so what if your WH doesn't like your mom and wouldn't like it if he dropped by unnanounced and found her there?!?!? The fact that your WH doesn't like something does NOT necessarily mean that it would be LBing for you to do it. There's nothing morally wrong with you having your mother watch your son for a little while. Your WH's reaction to something is not an accurate barometer of whether or not something is wrong or right. HIS expectations and HIS angry reactions are inappropriate. Do not adjust your choices to try to appease him when he is this far from reality. The POJA is for FORMER WS's - most definitely not for trying to appease the WS!

IMHO Saralynn your WH is starting to worry about whether or not you will wait around for him forever and that is what's behind his dropping by unannounced. He might be doing that as a way of checking up on you - to assure himself that you're still where he left you... Either that or he is simply being too controlling, takes you totally for granted and EXPECTS you to stay put as he dictates minus any appreciation whatsoever for you doing so. Either way IMHO your WH needs to see that you are most certainly NOT going to be on standby, putting your life on hold just in case he wants to stop by.

The fact that he doesn't seem to like it when you make yourself unavailable just convinces me even more that you should do this. I don't mean that you should do it with an "I'll show him" attitude but you are in danger of trying to appease his unrealistic expectations, becoming even more subjugated to him at a time when he is blatantly disregarding all or most of his obligations to you and your children.

By contrast most likely the OW right now is giving him some competition, and trying to make your WH jealous in order to get him to divorce you and commit to her. At some point the OW usually starts dating OM as a way of putting pressure on the WH. I am most certainly not suggesting that you date OM but you must realize that your WH probably assumes he doesn't have to worry about you staying in his fold, thus freeing him to concentrate on keeping OW involved. Also, the WH will sometimes make the assumption that if the BW makes herself too available to the WH, that she is standing by him because no other man would want her anyway. The WS already has a problem recognizing the value of the BS and takes them for granted without the BS adding to that misperception by being too available.

You canNOT bargain with an adulterer. Their expectations of you and sense of entitlements for themselves are shifted way out of whack. He WILL NOT appreciate anything you grant him at this time! Yes, offer to meet his emotional needs while in Plan A but don't expect him to accept or appreciate much of what you offer right now. But what I am talking about is the temptation to appease his unreasonable demands in the hopes that it will somehow make him appreciate you or at least prevent him from getting angry and doing more hurtful things to you as 'punishment'. He is going to do those shameful and hurtful things anyway, and then he is going to blame his choices on you anyway, even IF you give in to all his demands.

He's crazy right now. You have no ability to control his actions - period - either by your expectations of him OR your appeasement of his expectations.

So stop being home for his unannounced visits! There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with having scheduled visitation with his son, BTW. Frequently stopping by somebody's home unannounced is just plain rude. (Do YOU ever stop by where he lives, unannounced, and frequently, and then let it be known you don't like it if he's not there?)

I agree with you. His expectations are irrational and completely off. I just think that he will know I'm trying to be gone on purpose because I almost never go anywhere in the evenings since my DS was born. I don't want to appease him at all costs, but I wasn't sure how this would fit with plan A where Dr. Harley stated not to try to do anything that would upset the WS.



I'm pretty sure it's the latter of the two. He isn't concerned about me not being available at the moment. I think he's so self-centered that he really just doesn't give anyone else any consideration (except maybe the OW at times). He will be irritated if I'm not here because it will force him to be responsible for the care of our DS, not because he necessarily wants to be around me. All the more reason not to be here and to encourage him to take DS places.



Again, I agree. He just knows that he can come and go as he pleases (not just to our home, but anywhere) so he doesn't give it a second thought. I will have to talk with him about a schedule, though. It makes sense to get one established. But the last time I tried to do this, he complained to our mutual friend that I was "dictating" to him when he could and could not see our DS. Though, I'm sure this was just a comment to make me look bad because he was trying to justify his A. to our friend. He wanted me to seem unreasonably controlling so that he would have sympathy for my WH's actions in leaving me.


I wondered this myself about the OW...she has called a new number a few times. I did a reverse phone search and found out it's a guy, but that's all. It's probably nothing, but it would be nice if she was starting to look around huh? I do think that she is pressuring my WH to live with her because she's also been calling a real estate agent. While it may not be a direct demand (move in with me or else!!), I think she is complaining about her finances and looking in the hopes that my WH will step in and help.


Yes, you're right. He's done it numerous times already.



I will try to put a stop to it. And I know that his behavior is rude. My WH used to get all up in arms if ANYONE showed up at our home without calling first. Even if they did call, he didn't want anyone over. But, he doesn't apply the same standard to himself (he never really has). Hence the reason why it's ok for him to commit adultery, but he used to rail against other people who did the same.

So. Today's visit with my WH was strange as usual. I don't think I followed many of the MB suggestions, but it seemed to turn out better than normal.

First, I've been making myself less available to my WH. I TM him today that if he wasn't coming by soon, that my DS and I were going to visit my mom. Since I got no response, DS and I left. A little while later, I left my DS with my mom and went to a bookstore near by. My WH called me while I was there and asked where I was. I told him what I was doing and we talked for a bit.

About 15 minutes later he shows up at the bookstore with a decaf iced coffee drink for me and sits down to make small talk. I was in shock. I thanked him for the drink. He then offered to buy dinner and bring it back to the house.

Then we had a very weird conversation. He told me that OW#2 invited him to Reno to party with her and her friends. He said that he wasn't going so I didn't need to get mad about it. I replied "Why would I get mad at you about going?" I know that's not how MB would want me to answer since I am supposed to say "when you talk about the OW, that hurts me"..etc. But I just don't actually care at the moment what he does because he's already done the worst. Actually I sort of considered my response a form of reverse babble, though I didn't think that at the time.

Anyway, he replied that "Well, he DOES have some morals left" that's why he wasn't going and then sort of trailed off. I just let the comment go.

He later started making all sorts of strange comments like "You wouldn't marry me now if you met me". I said that wasn't true. That I do like him as a person and that he can be very charming when he's nice, though he hasn't been that way with me recently.

We basically chatted like we were already divorced friends talking about their future relationship needs. It felt wrong, but I just let the conversation flow since it's the most we've talked in over 2 months.

I asked him if he ever wanted to remarry. He flat out stated "NO". I told him I was sorry that I made him feel that way. He replied that it wasn't me, it was just the hassle of being married he didn't like (I assume he meant the financial, legal, and asset meshing as well as the commitment required). I told him that I was still sorry, but that I absolutely want to remarry and that I was on a mission to find a normal guy who I could have good conversations with and be attracted to. He was taken aback by that a little and began asking me if I had met anyone yet. I replied no, but I did have guy friends who I talk to on line (which I do).

Now again, I know this isn't what MB would encourage me to say since it implies that I'm not standing for the marriage and I'm getting my one of my emotional needs met by some other guy, but I also made comments that I wanted to stay married to my WH. However, since he didn't want to stay with me, I would be looking for his replacement when the time was right.

This actually seemed to intrigue my WH. He started asking me all sorts of questions about "who my guy friend was", "where did I meet him", "has he been over to the house", etc. I refused to answer the first two stating if he didn't want to be with me, my private life was none of his concern (I was not rude at all when I said this, but was joking with him in a light and flirty manner). I did tell him that my friend had never been to the house, though and that I didn't consider him anything more than that.

Now, I am ready for some criticisms about this exchange and the fact that I do have a guy friend who I e-mail. While I understand that at this stage I am "vulnerable" for my own A., this friend is our mutual high school acquaintance who I have never had feelings for above a friendship level. So I am not concerned over "falling" for him in the slightest and look at him as more of a brother than a BF.

I just find it odd that it took me having a "mysterious" guy friend for my WH to start paying attention to me. He actually flirted with me a little and made a joke that he didn't know who I was now. I hate playing mind games and that was not my intention in telling him anything about my friend. I would rather not go that juvenile route, but apparently my WH only thinks I'm worth the attention if he has competition.

Ok..that's all for now. I look forward to your comments with a little bit of trepidation... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Bump for comments and a little addendum.

My WH sent me a TM this morning trying to guess who my guy friend was. I replied with this e-mail:

"Does your inquiry regarding the identity of my "secret" friend mean that you want to recommit yourself to our marriage and have a relationship with me where we are radically honest and accountable to each other about our personal lives and relationships with other people?

If not, then I stand by my original statement:

"The identity of my friend is for me to know and you to never know."

LOL.

Kisses <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sara"

You know that MB doesn't suggest that you get or pretend to get a boyfriend. But I'm happy that you are going out more. Your husband still seems very attached to you.

I was very clear with my WH that my friend is not a BF. I told him he had never been to the house and the we have not gone out. We only exchanged e-mails.

However, my WH was very angry about my e-mail to him and said that "no one is ever radically honest with one another. I think we have both proven that."

Anyway. It doesn't matter. Nothing I do is right when it comes to him. Even if I sat at home and never talked to anyone, he would still be doing what he's doing. I'm tired of him expecting me to disclose every little detail about my life and then lying to me about everything in return.

My WH is only attached to me so far as it benefits him. He will probably use this e-mail and my "friendship" as an excuse to do something stupid like cut off my funds or buy a new car...who knows. Maybe it will drive him to move in with the OW. I can't control him and I don't want to try.

Moving in with the OW would end the fantasy real fast. Let's hope for that.

You are able to get legal counsel quickly, correct? Just in case he stops paying for his responsibilites.

Yes, it would end the fantasy. But I think the fantasy has ended already. My WH doesn't seem happy with anything right now. He cares for the OW, but doesn't want to be around her daughter and he already said if he lived with her he would "hate" her. He also doesn't want to marry her. So moving in with her to get "even" with me over my e-mail friend would be worse for him. I'm pretty sure he already knows that.

I have legal counsel and can get a LSA or D. filed whenever I need to. If he stops paying the bills, it will just force me to have it removed from his checks...I think he knows that too. That's why he hasn't bothered with the legalities yet.

Good! A lot of times the WS will cut off funds and have power over the BS.

This affair is going nowhere fast. I can't believe he is continuing it. But then, WS's always do crazy things.

Continue doing what you are doing, and be unavailable.