I do think my WH loves his children and misses his DS a great deal. But I also think that his anger at not seeing him is being fueled by his OW.

He has told me that being away from our DS has made him see how much he neglected him in the past. So he is now bent on being a model father by doing the things his dad didn't do with him which is to spend time with our DS and buy him everything he can afford.

I'm sure my WH feels guilty for not being here, but his guilt doesn't overcome his selfishness or get him to consider the wrong in what he's doing.

His newfound desire to be a good father is definitely in conflict with his desire to please himself. So he thinks the best solution to his problem is to divorce me, but try to get as much visitation time as possible.

Unfortunately, this is not even remotely close to being a "good" alternative. Divorce statistics are very clear about how deeply children are affected by being "split" between two parents and two homes.

I have tried to tell him these things, but he is not willing to listen. Maybe someday he will realize how much damage he has caused.

I know that his father was physically and mentally abusive to every one in the family on top of openly cheating on my MIL two times. He would also go through periods when he abandoned them all only to return and start the cycle over again.

My WH had nothing but disgust for his father for doing this, yet he now has to look at himself in the same light (at least in regard to the adultery and partial abandonment).

I can't imagine what he must be thinking, but I'm sure the denial at this point must be huge.

I'm no expert Saralynn, just another sad BS but perhaps he is terrified of turning into his father? I am willing to bet that his siblings have troubled marriages too. Perhaps he first has to trust that he can be a good husband and parent and that you are the right person to help him?

I believe that the strongest indicator of whether your spouse is likely to cheat is whether they had a parent who cheated, especially if it is a same sex parent.

Copying our parents when under stress is what we all do instinctively although I am sure it is possible to prevent this once you are aware of it. I remember hating the fact that my mother yelled at me as a child only to find myself doing exactly the same thing when I was faced with too much stress when my children were tiny. <urrrgggh>

My H won't even discuss his horrible father, let alone get counseling :-(

LTA,

Yes, I'm sure he is not happy about being like his dad. A few weeks after he left, he sat at our kitchen table with his head down and said "I'm no better than my dad, now".

I don't know how to help him, I really wish I could.

He is the oldest sibling in his family and was always the more responsible one. He was the envy of his family because he always held a steady job, was not late on his bills, had the "perfect" marriage, and was morally on target.

His younger brother has a drinking problem and is divorced now. He has 2 young children.

His two younger sisters have never been married but his second to youngest drinks a lot as well and his youngest sister has a child with a convicted criminal.

So, no, none in his family have good relationships.

I was hoping that my WH and I would be the ones to break the cycle of dysfunction and actually have a good marriage, but it looks like we are next in line for divorce.

I really do think he began to panic when he found out about our second child. He commented to me that he didn't think two children would be "good for us".

Though it was not planned, after being initially upset at his lack of enthusiasm, I was thrilled. My WH just seemed to grow more distant, staying up late alone, and generally just wanting to get out of the house.

I think he felt that he was turning 30 and had not got to do all the things he wanted to do. He didn't enjoy coming home and spending time with us as a family and thought adding another child to the mix would just make it more hectic.

When he started coming home more often to visit, he said things like "is this what it would be like if I came home?"
and "two kids isn't that bad"...I take this to mean that he was surprised that the house wasn't chaotic and unpleasant with two children.

I really am sad about where he is now. I think I am having a difficult time with this whole thing because I really didn't think my WH was this capable of doing what his father did because he lived it and saw how awful it was.

While I fault the OW with getting him started on this downward spiral, I really think my WH desires to live his single life and will do so for a long while.

My feeling is that he is running from a lot of things and especially from God. I think that when he comes to terms with his faith that the rest of his life will fall into place.

I just wonder how long this will take and how low he has to go in order to get there.

"I was hoping that my WH and I would be the ones to break the cycle of dysfunction and actually have a good marriage, but it looks like we are next in line for divorce."

IMHO this usually doesn't work unless there is counseling and/or some specific education and positive role modeling sought. Just trying to white-knuckle it to be a better spouse/parent than what you learned growing up usually isn't enough.

The good news is there are resources readily available for people who want to have a better marriage and family than what they witnessed as a child.

IMHO the WS's sincerity begins, and therefore the BS's trust is warranted, when the WS takes the responsibility to seek the info needed and get whatever support is needed to successfully apply it. While expressing remorse is at least preferrable to the pretense that they are 'not doing anythign wrong'... it is still a long way away from acknowledging that they DO have the power to make positive changes. I think even when the fog starts to lift, and the WS starts to admit regrets, there is still the tendency to want to save face, or pretend that it's too late now, so the WS is still refusing to take responsibility for repairing the damage they caused. (I suspect this is where my WXH is now and plans to remain forever.)

When your WH is showing this sort of pessimistic remorse you might suggest he read the Plan B letter again and make an appointment with Dr. Harley. Because IF he's sincerely ashamed of the sort of husband/father he's been there IS a way he can change that.

I just remembered something I heard way back in the 70's...
I can't remember the source and don't know how accurate it is.

My boyfriend at the time had a father who was cheating on his mother and then moved out to be with the OW.

I had heard that if a boy's father was a poor role model, that when that boy grew up he would be more likely to follow his father's poor example if he had sons vs daughters. I don't remember what the explanation was - just that something about having a son of his own would make it more difficult for him to shake free of the poor role modeling he grew up with.

When I met my WXH I had no clue about his troubled childhood or what his parents' marriage was really like... until I was already married to him. My WXH did eventually reveal to me that he didn't want to have any sons! I was sort of relieved all of our children are daughters... thinking maybe it would prevent him from being as bad as his step-father. But without parenting classes and counseling my WXH didn't really have a clue of how to be better than that. Then when his step-father got cancer my WXH went through a midlife crisis, started his last adultery, and very openly stated he wanted to be just like his step-father! I think my WXH felt it would have been somehow disrespectful to not act just like his step-father, and that my not accepting that was somehow an insult to his step-father?

Maybe that's sort of how your WH feels? Maybe he's struggling with his feelings towards his father and it really has very little to do with you or the OW?

SL:

6 months to two years. Then I think it will all come crashing in on him.

MM,

I think the situation (i.e. my second pregnancy, lack of communication between us, my WH's new job, turning 30, meeting an attractive OW who shares his sense of humor, etc.) coupled with my WH's personality and past history created the perfect storm so to speak in contributing to the demise of my marriage.

I'm sure he would have been interested in having a "safe" crush with the OW and left it at that, if the circumstances were different, but everything combined made him feel that he needed to break free from his "old life" with me.

I think the fact that he has tried to completely redefine himself with all the tattoos (we are on number 12 now by the way), new clothes, new condo decorated bachelor style, new hobbies, getting all new friends, new habits (drinking gin and tonics and smoking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) and most recently getting a new car proves that his "problem" is more than just wanting to get out of a "bad" marriage.

I really think he is having what is generally known as a "midlife crisis". It is my belief that these type of life crises are spiritual in nature (i.e life circumstances spark a meltdown that causes a person to reevaluate who they are, why are they here, what makes them happy, etc.).

No matter how much counseling a person receives, I believe that they will not find contentment in life unless they have a relationship with God. My WH never fostered his relationship with God (if he ever had one), so now he is trying to start over in life and see if the pleasures of sin are going to fill the bill.

Biblically speaking, I know that his new life will not get better or make him happy, but it seems that he must learn that for himself. He is not the type of person who learns from other's mistakes. He has to make his own.

Very sad.

Maybe, but I still think he is "done" with the married life for quite a while.

He is greatly enjoying the ability to come and go as he pleases and not having to answer to anyone.

And, while I think that plan B does work on giving some WH's a reality check, I'm pretty sure that my WH will just get more and more used to living a single life.

Even if he stopped seeing this particular OW, he is able to get crushes rather easily (i.e. OW#2) and so he would never be without a love interest for long.

He probably also feels a sense of security anyway because he figures that I am a safety net for him if things don't go as planned. The fact that we share children probably makes him feel as though I will always be in the back drop "waiting".

My main concern at this point is even if I waited for the "crashing down" to happen, I still have the sinking feeling he is falling into the same cycle his father did where he would withdraw from the family for a time and then reengage later.

I fear that I would mistake his temporary desire to be a family man again as a permanent one and take him back only to see him leave again in a few months or years.

Its my belief that until he comes to terms with God, he isn't going to change.

So I'm really not holding my breath here.

SL:

Why not let him know that you are not a safety net? That he has a chance to fix this with you now, but the opportunity will not always be there, and when the divorce is complete, you will move on.

Just a thought-- and-- anything to burst his bubble.

OMWH,

I have let my WH know that I am not going to wait around for him forever and I do think he understands that I will be looking to date after the divorce. This is one of the reasons he was stalling on filing. He said that maybe in a year he might feel differently so we should stay married in case he changed his mind about wanting to be with someone else.

I actually couldn't believe my ears when he said that and it made me very angry because he would have me stay married to him all the while he cheated on me just waiting on the possibility that his feelings would change. I made sure I let him know I was not about to do that under any circumstances.

However, the problem is that my WH knows me very well. He knows that I take my faith seriously in every aspect of my life. This means that I will not date until I am divorced and I will be pretty picky about my next boyfriend in regard to sharing my faith (especially now that I've seen the disastrous results that come from being married to a non-believer).

He also knows that I'm not the most socially outgoing person. So I'm sure he thinks that unless I meet a guy at Church or in some other unlikely place, I'm probably going to be single for a long while.

So as much as I wish he thought otherwise, I'm certain that no matter what I tell him, he assumes that he has plenty time to mess around before he has to face the possibility of me finding someone else.

Saralynn77, you know you're legally, morally, and biblically allowed to file for divorce, right? If the reason behind your non-filing is due to financial reason, then at least let him know that you are seriously considering not ever wanting him back, which based on your recent posts seem to indicate that's what you're thinking.

Don't let him treat you like a doormat by believing that you will be waiting whenever he is tired of cheating around. Don't let him tell you you're some Jerry Springer wife. Make a stand for yourself. Show him that you deserve respect.

If he eventually truly want you back, even after you told him that you're "done" and "emotionally checked out" and "NO chance in hexx with him anymore", he will be begging for you to take him back. I don't see any disadvantage by telling him that you're "done."

You need to remind yourself again and again that even after you told him that you're done and even if he believes that you mean it, if he want you back, he will try to win you back.

Now, look into yourself. You have mentioned that even if he returns, chances are he will do it again few years down the road, because he is not a Christian like you are and he has tasted the freedom and will want more. He even lusted after several women. Do you really want to spend the rest of your life watching over your shoulders and being suspecious if he's cheating or meeting another interesting woman at work? These are questions that you need to think about.

Interesting post. This is the very difficulty in dealing with infidelity isn't it? If you take a chance and reconcile, will they do it again?

I wouldn't know how to begin to deal with this since my WH has not given me any indication that he is even willing to try to work on the marriage. So my statements about our marriage seeming like a lost cause are based solely on his lack of being open to giving our marriage a chance.

My fears about him cheating again are based on what I have experienced thus far in dealing with him during his affair and knowing his family history.

My WH's lack of remorse, coldness, refusal to communicate with me and ability to cut me out of his life entirely is very disturbing. I never thought he was capable of doing this to me and the fact that he was, causes me to reevaluate everything I thought I knew about him. I am now faced with the possibility that my WH was either a complete cad underneath a moral exterior for the last 14 years (a frightening, but distinct possibility), or that he is in some sort of spiritual crisis.

I am hoping it is the latter.

Also, my musings about his ability to be faithful in the future are just that..musings. I would have know way to gauge how he would be if we were to reconcile until I see what steps he was willing to take to make the marriage work and how dedicated he was to sticking to it.

I'm not sure how to go about doing what you suggest in making my WH respect me. I have tried my best to improve the areas in which I was lacking (i.e. Plan A) and have spoken out against what he has done. On more than one occasion I have been very vocal in letting him know that I cannot stay married to him if he is continuing to cheat on me.

But really, I would like to know what can a person can do to gain someone's respect when they don't want to give it to you?

It is my opinion that my WH does not respect me because he does not find anything in me of value. Everything that I stand for as a Christian woman, he now rejects as being "boring", "naive" or "legalistic", though at one time he believed my values were noble and shared them.

When someone rejects the very faith they espoused in order to justify their sin, they are not going to value anyone who shares that faith. This is why my WH dumped not only me, but every single one of his professing Christian friends.

So until he comes to the place where he begins to see the value in Christian morality, I cannot make him see me any differently.

Finally, I have let him know that I am "done" in regard to the situation as it is. He knows that I will not have contact with him as long as he continues on with what he's doing and he knows my conditions for reconciliation.

So, as far as I can tell, there's really nothing left for me to do at this point except watch and pray.

WS' don't respect the sanctity of marriage nor do they respect BS' and their families.

So the question to your H is: R U a WS or my H? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Best to put the recovery onis on him.

Now my question to you as the BS is: When he acts like a WS, R U willing to execute plan B immediately?

L.

Sara: I agree with Orchid about the Plan B. I think your best bet for getting respect from your WS is BOUNDARIES and plan B! Sure he will get angry - BECAUSE he knows then he will have to start treating you with respect or else not be allowed inside your boundaries anymore.

BTW, getting to 'only' see your kids two days per week for visitation is not that unusual - pretty typical actually. Especially with kids so young and a non-custodial parent suddenly diving into the bachelor lifestyle... I think you are right about your WS's recent interest in the children and fathering being partly motivated by a desire to impress the OW. Shamefully sad.

If at all possible DOCUMENT your WS's expectation that he gets to see you too for visitation! This is especially important since your WS is starting to pretend that you are 'restricting' his access to his children. I had taped phone conversations, e-mails, and (if need be) the testimonies of my children to verify that my WH was demanding visitation with me AND that he was refusing visitation with the children if I didn't agree to be there too! But WH was telling his lawyer, his family, and the OW that I was refusing him visitation with the kids and/or that I was making visitation a 'hardship' for him by not allowing him to come to AND INTO my home! (And this was a restraining order situation! - According to WH my motive for getting the restraining order was not because he had head butted me and threatened to kill me... I was supposedly just trying to prevent him from seeing his children... even though I made arrangements for him to pick them up at mutual friends' homes for visitation) I had to prove to the court that WS was really trying to get access to me - not his children.

Finally during a meeting with the court appointed mediator, when I kept offering different visitation arrangements including me dropping the kids off in his town at any site he chose, and WS refusing every option I offered, instead demanding that he be allowed to come to my home, I said: "So it sounds like you're saying that unless you get to see me too, you don't even want visitation with our daughters?" Which WS amazingly growled back to in response: "THAT's RIGHT!" I repeated my question, he repeated the same response, and from that point on the mediator stopped trying to talk me into allowing WS to come to may home and informed my WS that whatever visitation arrangement I set up he would have to comply with!

I'm a bit worried Sara because your WH shares the same boundary issue with access to you that my WS had. I've noticed and commented on it all along. Get as much proof as you can that your WS is not simply trying to get access to his children, and that you have not denied him reasonable visitation. Get witnesses and evidence in writing or e-mail that his motive for pretending you are denying him access to his children is an attempt to continue contact with you. If I were you I would ONLY communicate with him in writing, through intermediaries. IMHO you should put in writing several different visitation arrangements he can choose from, none of which allows him to be in your presence, and then only allow written response from him to that! You should also include in those written communications the fact that previously you had allowed him pretty much unlimited access but that is not something he is entitled to and can't expect anymore. Also, put it into writing how you had made arrangements for him to have visitation at your parents' home but that he had refused that arrangement too.

Get as much documentation and as many witnesses as you can that you have been generous and cooperative about visitation but his demands are unreasonable. He is going to try to exploit his accusations about visitation to basically force you to be in his presence.

One possible ally you may have in this battle may ironically be the OW. If she found out that your WH wanted you to be there for visitation, she wouldn't like that. I told the OW, her family/friends, WS's and OW's coworkers, and all my friends (knowing it was a small town and it would get back to OW's friends/family through the grapevine) about WH's desire and attempts to have me present for visitations with his daughters. Even though OW initially pretended not to believe me, she and WH did fight about it... and then she became very controlling and restrictive of WH's access to his children! Ironically she switched from sympathizing with him about supposedly not being allowed to see his kids, to setting severe limitations on his vistation with his daughters herself! She gave him an ultimatum that if he didn't allow her to monitor and limit the visitation then she would dump him! She demanded he drop the all-day Saturday visitation and only allowed him a couple of hours Wednesday and Sunday evenings during which he had to leave his cell phone on and check in with her! I believe it was the OW becoming so controlling that began the demise of the adultery fantasy for my WH. At the very least, get PROOF that your WH is refusing reasonable visitation offers from you BECAUSE he thinks he's entitled to access to you too. Then you will have the proof if he persists in false accusations against you, or even if you choose to inform the OW of what he's up to.

Orchid and MM,

Thank you so much for the feedback <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am in Plan B right now. I resent my PBL yesterday though it pained me to do it, I felt he at least needed to be reminded of my expectations for recovery and that I do still love him.

As I expected, and much to my continued humiliation, I received no response at all from my WH except for a random TM about whether or not I had an electrical power and how my DS like an animated e-mail he sent.

I did respond to both via TM with a simple "yes" because I fear he has seen an attorney, filed divorce papers, and is attempting to prove that I am being difficult in communicating with him about the children and allowing visitation.

His e-mails to me since reducing visitation have been very scripted in my opinion. In one he stated "I do not agree to the visitation you set up. I will agree to it only because I am afraid you will reduce it more." That was it.

This is not a typical response from him.

As for trying to prove that he wants me present for visitations, I really can't since he has only verbalized it in the past. He really has been careful in what he puts in his e-mails ever since he left 5 months ago.

I do think my WH is sort of a special case though. He is mostly fine with having my DS go with him. Though he did let me know a few weeks back that driving my DS to his condo, which is 15 minutes each way, was cutting into his visiting time and that it was "easier" for him to spend the night to see him. But he is still ok with not visiting with him around me.

My DD is a different story. So far, for all the exchanges with my DS, my mom has come over. I have told my WH 3 different times (twice in e-mails), that if he wants to visit here with my DD before or after the exchange, that I would be more than happy to allow it if he would give me advanced notice. It has been 10 days now since he saw her last and he has yet to request to see her.

I did comment about that in my last long e-mail to him and the only reply I got was "I love DD very much and miss her too."

So again, this response seemed scripted. I feel that he may actually think a judge will order me to be present for visitations with my DD since she is so small.

As for letting the OW know about his expectations, I am positive she has already chimed in on the situation by saying how awful I am for making it hard on him to see his children. That's the reason why she forwarded an e-mail sent to her about fair visitation to my WH to give to me.

I really think she is one of those "whatever you want to do, I am 100% behind you" types. On her myspace page, she has listed as her hero "anyone who has the courage to follow their dreams - no matter how difficult it might be"(I have no doubt this is directed toward my WH..Gagging right now...). So she wouldn't care if my WH forced me to be his tag along nanny during visitations as long as he was happy.

If you can believe this, his OW even encouraged him to frequently contact OW#2 thinking that my WH would respect her for being so open and free. In fact, when he told me that, he actually rolled his eyes implying she was stupid for doing that because he knows he finds OW#2 attractive and is interested in her as well.

He has probably guessed by now that her "worship" of him can't be totally genuine and doesn't really respect her either. When I mentioned how hard it was for me to be away from my DS for an entire weekend and asked how the OW (who has her daughter in day care 40 hours a week) would like not seeing her every other weekend, he responded "she probably wouldn't care". I then said "why, so she could spend more time with you?" and he replied "probably". He's so full of himself now it's disgusting and she is just pumping him up more and more.

It must be such a hardship on him to have the goodie little two shoes wife and mother at home, the fun and available for SF whenever you want it OW#1 at his beck and call, and the fantasy childhood crush for something to shoot for later....really who should he choose? It must be so difficult. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyway.

So I really don't think he is at all concerned with my plan B since he thinks my efforts will be thwarted legally.

But my feeling is that even if he doesn't get his way entirely, he still wants to be for all accounts and purposes "single" with relationship(s) on the side. I don't think me dropping out of his life is necessarily something he doesn't want to have happen, but is just an inconvenience to him at this point.

It seems that he is fine no matter what occurs and will adapt to whatever situation comes his way.

I just know that for my sanity, plan B is necessary since I feel that I need to detach more anyway before the divorce is final.

Basically, what you're saying is that you're done for now, but if he wants to come home with a some sorries, you'll take him back. And you wonder why he called you a Jerry Springer wife? When I said "done," I mean DONE. No appologies will ever make up for what he did and no matter what, you won't want him to return and you're moving on. THAT'S DONE! Untill you reach that point, why would he repsect you?

He needs to know that you're DONE for him to ever start showing some respect for you. If you don't even respect yourself, how can you expect him to respect you?

Wow. I'm not really sure how to respond to the harshness of your post. It seems you've singled me out for some reason because you feel that you need to teach me some sort of lesson in gaining people's respect.

But I really think you are off base here.

First, I do respect myself, but I also love my WH. While you may think that makes me pathetic in your estimation, I do not think that giving up on a 14 year relationship with a person I love and in which we share 2 children is something that should be entered into lightly.

I'm not sure what my filing for divorce would accomplish other than to take the burden off him in doing it. I do not think it would make him respect me as you keep insisting.

Furthermore, I cannot tell my WH I am "done" with our relationship because, frankly, I'm not. I am not going to lie to him in some lame attempt to get him to respect me that will probably only result in hastening the divorce.

I have outlined my requirements for him returning to the marriage and your assumption that it consists of merely a few "sorries" is ridiculous and a little rude in my opinion.

I would suggest that before you chime in with your advice, you should take some more time in reading what this site is about. It is meant to help people try to save marriages in light of adultery, not just throw them away in order to gain "respect".

hey chicka do you check your email?

Sorry if I come off as harsh. The reality of your situation is not soft, it is nothing but harsh.

The harsh reality is that he knows for sure that you will be there for him for a long time to come no matter what he does outside the marriage, who he sleep with, how often he sleeps with them, etc. There is not incentive for him to change, because at the end of the day, the month, even at the end of the year, he knows that if he wants to come back, you'll be waiting right there, right then for him.

In his mind "I'll change then if I really NEED to, but right now, there is no need to change, because she's going nowhere. So, I'll just contintue have my fun with my ladies."

If you're in his shoes having fun with OW #1 and some chasing fun with OW #2 and many others that can come into the picture in upcoming months and knowing that you will be still waiting at home for him to return if he is willing to change, would you stop the fun and come back?

Once again, I'm just saying how it is without sugarcoating it.

Thanks for the reminder. I am well aware of the reality of my situation having lived it for the past 5 months.


And so your suggestion is that I divorce my WH and find another boyfriend right away and basically use this guy to "show" my WH that I deserve respect and didn't wait around for him?


What exactly do you think is going to make my WH "wake up" and see his need to change? Me pretending to stop loving him and finding some random guy to make him jealous?

Or are you seriously suggesting that I just abandon all hopes of reconciliation and forget my WH?

Because I think that if I were to genuinely do that, I would not want to reconcile with him no matter what he did.

So there would be no point in trying to motivate him to change his view of me or even caring if he ever did because I would no longer wish to be with him.

Do you now see why your suggestion, in light of my desire to save my marriage, makes absolutely no sense?



Again, what are you suggesting would be his prime motivation to return to the marriage? Me "moving on"?

As I said, if I were to move on, there would be no reason for me to wish he would to return to the marriage.

And, if I were to make a pretense of moving on to somehow manipulate his return, then I would be lying to my WH and basically using some other poor man in the process. The very suggestion is absolutely abhorrent in my opinion.


Well thanks for not using the kid gloves...your compassion is astounding.