WOW MEDC,

You and FH have just, inadvertently, agreed on a point! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Difference is, it took you 2 sentences to say the same thing it took FH a cazillion sentences to say.

Allelua!!

Seems you 2 do have some common ground.

All Blessings,
Jerry

MEDC, I fail to see why you continue to misrepresent my beliefs and continue to put words in my mouth. I have NEVER said, in five and half years, that any Betrayed Spouse who wants a divorce based on their spouse's infidelity cannot have one. In fact, I would support their decision if they have clearly come to that decision. Why? Because Jesus granted that RIGHT to any Faithful Spouse as one of their two choices regarding divorcing their spouse. Therefore, to accuse me of "having an argument with the good Dr." is patently false because it would first require me to have an "argument" with God wherein I would be saying in effect, "God is wrong."

You SHOULD know me well enough that I am not going to take such a position.





"Bailing out" or not bailing out is the right of any Betrayed Spouse. What any given individual is willing to endure to recover their marriage is between them and God. I WILL encourage someone to continue in their recovery efforts IF there is a reasonable effort by the Wayward Spouse to TRY. That "trying" includes the "two steps forward, one step backwards" often "roller coaster-like" path of recovery.

But you are incorrect in stating that my own recovery had many false starts. It had many times of "backsteps" along with all the forward steps when my wife got sucked into contact with the OM and/or his mother before she finally reached the "I got it!" stage of recovery requiring No Contact for the rest of her life as a consequence of the adultery and a Boundary issue for me. Recovery is a process and does not become "Recovered" at the beginning of the process. That is one of the reasons why the average recovery takes 2 years. In cases of long term involved affairs (like my wife's) the general rule of thumb is that it will take recovery as long as it took the WS to get into and out of the affair. I BEGAN recovery efforts knowing and accepting that it might well take 6 years or more, including all the ups and downs along the way, to reach Recovered.

NO ONE, including me, "likes" the backward step times of recovery. But "endurance" and "commitment" are not predicated on the issues that need to be worked through and "conquered." They are based on LOVE, forgiveness, and attempts by both spouses to keep trying even in the face of emotional trials and tribulations. It is one of the KEY reasons why I personally find it hard to see how anyone can recover their marriage without God's help. As you said, your reaction, and quite frankly the normal human reaction, is " I do not believe that anyone is worth that sacrifice of time.

All I can say in response to that is thank God that a lot of MB'ers don't see it that way. Thank God that Dr. Harley doesn't see it that way. Otherwise NO marriage would recover from infidelity.




And by implication you seem to think that I would recommend someone stay in their marriage "no matter what." That is another attempt to put words into my mouth that I have not said and to twist what HAS been said. It takes TWO people, both the BS and the WS, working at recovering their marriage in order recover the marriage. As you also know, however, it is VERY common that for a time the BS is "shouldering" the bulk of the recovery efforts while they are "reconnecting" and beginning to finally understand Emotional Needs, commitments, Love Bank sorts of deposits, etc. When the WS finally "gets fully onboard" the recovery tends to progress faster, unless the BS begins to dwell on the offense. Generally speaking, when the WS does finally "get it" is when they earn the FWS moniker, because the "alien has left the building" and HEALING is beginning to take place in both spouses. Notice I said, healing, not HEALED and FULLY RECOVERED. As with all recovery from trauma, including self-inflicted trauma, the healing does take time and sometimes "secondary surgeries" are needed that inflict some temporary pain for the ultimate benefit of full healing and restoration.





They are great tools and they DO have a stopping point. But they are NOT recovery efforts. They are "Affair Ending" efforts so that a choice to attempt recovery can even be a possibility.





You have that right, as do all Betrayed Spouses.





There is no question that Boundaries and Standards ARE critical components of all relationships including a marriage attempting recovery from infidelity. The "self-respect" issue is also important, but one that each individual must decide for himself or herself what it MEANS and how much they will allow their feelings to control their actions. For me, the issue as you present it, for me, revolves around Jesus' "self-respect" for Himself and what HE was being told to do for His "adulterous bride" by God the Father. Think about that issue for a while as you contemplate the relative "importance" of "self-respect" versus love and forgiveness, to say nothing of attempting to follow God in humble obedience and sacrificial love, Agape type love.





Your choice. Plain and simple. How much you may or may not want to consider the struggles going on in the mind of a repentant Wayward Spouse is integral to such and evaluation and potential choice to "give up and toss in the towel." Often one of the biggest hurdles that a Former Wayward Spouse has to face and conquer is the hurdle of "forgiving oneself" for a horrible offensive that they, themselves, committed. THEIR "self-respect" and "self-image" is often very poor and it can impact things like intimacy, especially if you are defining that term as Sex.

But repentance IS about having a "changed heart." That also does NOT mean that the consequences of the prior behavior are wiped out. It often means working through those consequences to arrive at a "newer and better" marriage than existed previously.




They are, and as thoughts and opinions, I disagree with them sometimes as you present them and agree with some of them from time to time. Where you seem to get onto "shaky" ground sometimes is when you start substituting your feelings, thoughts, and opinions for the clear teaching of the Word of God and then attempt to offer them as "advice" to others facing great trials and tribulations in their lives.

Understand, MEDC, that I am talking about Christians who are born again believers. Everyone else is going to do whatever they want to do and are not likely to receive advice from Christians because that advice will most often include "humble obedience to God no matter what one might be feeling" if the course they are on is clearly against what God has taught.

lol.

Yes, Jerry, I do tend to try to explain my reasoning rather just state a point. It's a problem I've had for a long time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FH...going against my own stated desires, I will respond to you one last time since you seem to, for some reason, feel the need to respond to my posts.

I DID NOT interject the Bible, God or anything else into this discussion...you did. I was giving my feelings and reasoning...I can do that without quoting Scripture. I gave opinions and feelings because they were called for. I would have given the same advice if someone had asked for a Biblical perspective...I would not advocate staying in many situations.
Perhaps you need to read my posts again and see that I never brought Scripture into the discussion...you did. Frankly, I saw and see no reason to have done so. My position to suggest to some to leave their marriage is founded in both Scripture and MB. I have clearly pointed out both so I am on no shaky ground.



Not every recovery is the same FH....so to say NO M would recover is a distortion of what I said...and BTW, Dr. Harley does see it that way. He would choose to NOT recover a M for himself if faced with infidelity....he also is supportive of people NOT wanting to remain with a spouse that cheated. And I did not say that every M is not worth recovering... only that I do not believe that it is worth sacrificing years in order to do so. If your ten year period of time had happened at a different point of your life, it could have resulted in all of your parenting years slipping away. Sorry, no person is worth an extended length of time to get their head out of their asss. IMHO, life is way too short to spend year after year mired in infidelity or less than enthusiastic recovery. There are many people here...and Lem has been another to point this out...that have "recovered" their marriages not from a position of love, devotion or strength...but because, IMO, they were too weak or wounded to move on from an abusive situation. Others have done a great job at recovery.

I am not looking to you for any advice...be it MB advice or Scripture. I find my answers in prayer and from the leadership of my church that I respect.

You have a much different view of Scripture, FH, and I am not at all interested in having any further discussion or debate with you concerning our different views. I put you on ignore for a reason and would prefer to have you NOT respond to my posts. There are many Christian's on this site that you do a good job reaching. From my vantage point, there is at least an equal number that you have not... I am one that, rather than continue the pointless debates with you, has decided to just peacefully co-exist by choosing to ignore you.

Be well.

MEDC, you are absolutely correct, you NEVER mentioned the Bible. You stated, and defend, your right to do whatever you FEEL and state that opinion in such a manner as to tell FS (and anyone else reading the thread) that they are fools to invest the time in recovering their marriages, based upon YOUR standards.

MEDC, God established Marriage. God grants the right to a divorce due to infidelity. Marriage, whether between believers or unbelievers, IS ordained by God not by mankind. Can mankind "appropriate" marriage and attempt to "keep God out of it?" Certainly. Mankind has been doing that for a very long time, but it still doesn't change the truth nor does a BELIEVER have the right to supplant God's teaching with their own feelings.

So to be CLEAR, the following is a "recap" of the posts that began this thread. As a "side note," I also find it very interesting that Fourth_Street has not posted since your last "advice" that he is, in YOUR opinion, NUTS to wait for his wife to work through her depression and to wait for her. I sincerely hope he continues posting because he IS in a world of pain and confusion that is NORMAL for most Betrayed Spouses, especially during the time in recovery when it seems as though the "BS is doing all the work."





It is clear from your subsequent postings, MEDC, that you will not rethink your position. You remain convinced in your mind that no one should "wait" for their spouse beyond what "MEDC" thinks HE would wait. And you have established in the case of Fourth_Street, and by logical extension to ALL cases, that 10 MONTHS is already far too long. Nevermind the "average of 2 years." Nevermind, as Fourth_Street stated, they ARE in counseling and his wife is suffering from depression. When is the last time that a woman suffering from depression, felt the needed emotional connection that leads to her desiring sex? There is no doubt, as Fourth_Street stated, that sex IS an important part of marriage as, after all, the idea of fidelity is that sex is voluntarily restricted to one's spouse. He, like most men, puts SF at the top of, or at least very high on, their own Emotional Needs list. My reference to the VOWS are to HIS vows, to the vows that are inherent to all marriages. If he chooses to honor his vows for himself and for his marriage, and attempts to recover his marriage from his wife's infidelity, it would seem that ENCOURAGEMTENT rather than discouragement and advice to "toss in the towel" would seem to be the "better course."

I strongly suspect your feelings are based on your own marital recovery situation and you then project those feelings onto others. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but YOU are a believer. It would seem logical that you would, therefore, temper your feelings and the subsequent advice to be consistent with what God has said to you, me, to all believers. You made NO attempt to determine whether on not Fourth_Street is a believer himself, yet you launched into advice that he was foolish to wait any longer than he already has. You went STRAIGHT to "acting based upon your feelings," which YOU know is NOT a Marriage Builders tenet, much less a biblically based response.

You "hide" your attitude in the cloak of the true statement that "a BS has the right to a divorce" and then proceed to twist the truth of that statement into a justification to NOT remain married with an "I can't see why anyone would….." statement.

You "fall back" on your accusations against me rather than look at your own "advice" as being "suspect" in this case. Why? Because it seems you, as a believer, DO NOT "look to the Scripture" first for advice. So you lash out at anyone, or me in particular, who "dares" to talk about Marriage being based and founded in the Scripture as ordained by God.

You want to put me on "ignore," feel free to do so. You've already put, it would seem, the Scripture there, so I'll be in good company.

Why, MEDC, do you fight against God and His Word and consider biblically based counsel to be worthy of your ridicule?

It would seem equally logical to ask Fourth_Street about his wife's depression, about what treatment, if any, she is receiving for that. Is she on any anti-depression medication? Is she receiving any psychological counseling? Are they talking about what is causing her depression? Are they talking about WHY she has chosen to remain married to him and why she is struggling in the "sex department?"

The "problem," it would seem is her depression at this point. And we don't even have a clue at this time if faith is a part of their lives and whether or not they are attempting to recover their marriage with or without God's help.

Wouldn't it seem prudent to be asking questions rather than jumping straight to your advice that "10 months is too long to wait and I'd get a divorce if it were me?"

That is what I was talking about in asking you if you'd care to "rethink" your advice.

Ultimately, the CHOICE will be up to Fourth_Street. If he has taken your "advice," then his marriage is already over. I sincerely hope that if he still wants to recover his marriage that he will continue posting and seeking help in how to work through this difficult period in the recovery process.

Ah, the long winded FH strikes again.
I said what I would do...and 10 months is not a period that I think is too long...except for the deatils the poster and I were discussing.
See, FH, your argument was baseless right from the start and still is... I never said anyone was a fool for doing what they believe is correct...I only stated what I would do.
FH...you call my post attacking YOU????? Are you frigging kidding me???
I will point out the obvious here FH as I grow very tired of your God complex....I get my spirtual guidance from Scripture, pastors and from fellowship with other believers. You on the other hand have become an island with your Christianity. Your continuing to post to me, after I have tried for months on end to have you stop doing so, is beyond pathetic.
If the original poster wished to bring Christ into this discussion, I would have been happy to discuss those things with him. I do not feel, as you do, that Scripture needs to be brought into every discussion. I do not feel the need to check with everyone I meet in real life or cyber world if they are Christians. I do not run every thing I do through a Scripture meter. No, FH, I just live my life the best way that I can based on the lessons I have learned from other Christians and Scripture. If you don't like it FH...so what??? I am not really concerned with how you view my Christian walk or life. I am happy to co-exist next to you...even if I do think you are a wind bag.
So, before you emabarass yourself anymore than you already have, I am not interested in dancing with you any longer FH. Go find another partner to fill your dance card. I am sure there must be an affair marriage right around the corner for you to go practice your preaching on. I for one have grown weary of your act and see no reason to ever respond to you again.

FH,

It’s really a habit of MEDC lately to lash out at others and post in abusive, hateful and attacking ways…behavior that’s against the rules of posting on these boards anyway AND clearly not the behavior of someone who is suppose to be a believer (as he claim to be)… I was severely attacked (and even called “evil” by him – amongst other things) for putting my H and M first by adhering to a MB principle that he personally don’t agree with... I was even called “racist” because of the difference of words used in my country and other countries… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I get the idea lately that MEDC rationalizes and justify some behavior to suit him and to protect his morality…whilst such behavior is clearly against the teachings of God. For example, he doesn’t think dating married woman who are separated and in the process of divorce (emotional adultery) and porn viewing (mental adultery) rises to the level of infidelity. But amazingly while he hold these unbiblical views, I was attacked by him last week for my personal views on homosexual orientation… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

MEDC is simply amazing…

T/J over.

Suzet, the words of a WS matter not to me. Plan on "accidentally" running into your A partner today???? Remember princess, you have kept that door open.

The things you’re trying to imply with your posts are false, attacking and disrespectful again MEDC…but by now I can expect anything from you and it’s no surprise to me… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Let’s see:

Last week you called me FWS…

then (f??????)WS…

and now WS… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Really amazing how quickly you’ve changed your stance MEDC… What’s next? Or have you run out of hateful words now to “describe” me??? Your most recent description was “evil” woman with “clutches”… Really amazing…

no, Suzet... I have others... but they come across as ****...so, I figure why bother typing them.
And no matter how many times you ask Suzet, I will not have a cyber affair with you. So, let's just move on okay.

see, people can say anything when they distort the facts Suzet. It is no wonder you found yourself a WS... you still have a habit of distorting reality... you are a WS in my view until you end ALL contact with the OM...until you tell his wife that you had an affair with her H...until then, you have not earned the F. I share that view with a great many people here Suzet...only difference is, I will say it right to you and not beat around the bush.

Yes, MEDC, you said what YOU would do, and then you stated your NOT very humble OPINION, implying clearly that FS (and everyone else who might be reading your opinion) should consider applying your opinion to his problem. Your opinion? NO ONE is worth it.





In one sentence you dismissed all those who HAVE waited and worked through their very difficult times in recovery. This is NOT an issue of a WS who is still engaged in an affair, this is an issue of dealing with the results and consequences that accrued to the committing of adultery and the fact that forgiveness does NOT eliminate the consequences or the need to work though them IF the goal is to recover the marriage.

When you say, "and 10 months is not a period that I think is too long...except for the deatils the poster and I were discussing," you totally glossed over the big problem he is attempting to deal with:

His wife is, by his admission, depressed. Obviously she is severely depressed. What happened to your concept of "in sickness and in health" as you place the EFFECT (lack of sex) ahead of the CAUSE (mental depression)?





MEDC, your continued disrespect is amazing, coming from one who claims to be a follower of Jesus. The "island" you talk about is the very same "island" for all believers. It is the Word of God. If you have a "dispute" with me or what I say, then the place to go for understanding and guidance IS the Word of God. But you may not like that, so you find it easier to attack the messenger rather than the message. How, exactly, do you see that as following God in humble submission to HIS will, not my will or your will?

I am, and have always been, quite willing to let God speak, as He has done in His Word, and submit my will to His will. Isn't that what a believer in Christ should do?

You say that you wouldn't "wait" and advise someone else that they might not want to wait while working on the CAUSE of the problem they are dealing with. I would ask you how your OPINION (as you have stated it as YOUR opinion, and presumbly not God's) is in line with the Scripture, such as 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, 13?

Obviously, we don't even know at this point if FS and his wife are believers, but you are, so the question is valid to you as a believer and how you advise others.

The biblical "directive" concerning sex, sexual desire, and marriage is found in 1 Corinthians 7:2-6. But once again, even though you and I may know what the Word of God says about it, we don't yet know if God's word on the matter has any bearing on FS and his wife because we don't know if they are believers. However, once again, you ARE a believer, and as such, one would think that you would support God's Word when the "choices" are between personal opinion and God's teaching of what His will is.

So again, the "point" is that it is my opinion that you should have considered asking more questions to clarify what he is dealing with before jumping to an "it's not worth it" statement.

"I do not run every thing I do through a Scripture meter."

This is patently obvious, but the question would be WHY don't you seek to honor God first when you are attempting to provide help to someone else in need? You don't have to "preach" to them, but you should, it would seem, be concerned about being consistent with, and obedient to, God's will above all others since you ARE His, don't you think?

Hey FH,

I've been waiting to hear the ansewr to my question, but I guess it's too hard.



I'll continue to report this "persons" posts to the mods as long as he continues to spit out his hateful venom... this type of behavior isn't helpful to all of the good folks here that are trying to rebuild their marriages.

Semper Fi,

RIF

MEDC, I really don’t care what’s your opinion and view about me (that's all it is - opinion only...) As I’ve said previously, I have lost ALL respect for you. I really also don’t care what hateful words you would further like to describe me with...as long as you keep those to yourself and stop with your disrespectful, attacking & hateful words and posts (which is against the rules of posting on these boards by the way).

Justuss....I will ask you to take a look at this thread. I did not seek out Suzet... she came here to spout off towards me. She is now on ignore so that I am not tempted to get into it again with her.

I gave my opinions about this posters situation. I did that based on my feelings, MB experience and thoughts. The original poster is free to accept or reject my opinions. I was respectful to the poster. Is there a requirement here that I run everything through a religion meter? If so, I missed that.

So, I will report my own post here and request that you take a look at this thread so that the original poster can have his thread back.

MEDC

Good idea!!!

Let's get this thread BACK to the original topic and question.

"To betrayed husbands: during your WW's affair, did sex in the marriage dry up? "

Please answer according to YOUR circumstances and experience WITHOUT attacking any other posters stance!!!!!

thank you.

Fourth_Street

I find myself in the same situation you are in. In my case, I am 6 months post D-Day. The first three months were complete fog and uselessness. No sex period from the beginning of the PA until the beginning of a brief “hysterical bonding” period that kicked off our R (3 months post D-Day). I was “dry” for 5 months. Now we are 3 months into R and sex is very, very infrequent (following the hysterical bonding) and only after she has had a few drinks.

She has told me that I am attractive, but that she is not sexually attracted to me. I have no idea what to do with that information. (FYI-NC is firmly in place and monitored very, very carefully). I struggle on a daily basis with what to do. I think about the fact our wives threw themselves at some one else, and in my case, I am stuck looking for scraps of affection or trying to get my wife buzzed so that I might get lucky.. It just doesn’t seem right. I just keep thinking that If I apply MB principles, that somehow this will all change. I just don’t know what to do either. I guess to boil it down, how do you know when a R has failed or when enough is enough? This is a big irreversible decision, you hate to screw it up. But jeez, there has to be women out there that would appreciate us…..

"Normal" SF for us just before her A started was about 2-3 times a month, something I was quite unhappy about. This continued during her A, I think partly because she wanted to keep up appearances.

Post DD though (May 2005), after about a week or two of no SF, the hysterical bonding started and we moved to 7-8 times a month, with the most exciting SF that I've ever experienced with her. The frequency is dropping slowly though, and we're now down to around 6 times a month.

She's indicated several times to me that SF is not one of her primary needs and she can "do without it". She's quite comfortable engaging in it with me though, when the need arises. All that I need to do now is find out how to turn on her "desire" button...

Honestly, I don't know if could have held out for 10 months without SF. Has your FWW actually expressed the desire to recover your M?

Yes, she has. She stridently insists that she wants to stay together. But with regards to sex, she says she doesn't feel like it because she feels too ashamed and guilty. She cries every day, often two or more times. I've been quite frustrated and angry by the lack SF and she says my anger is also a deterrent. It seems as if she has lots of reasons NOT to have sex, but she never finds a reason TO have sex.

We did have a brief "hysterical bonding" month 7 months ago, but nothing since then.

She says she finds me attractive and wants to have sex, but she feels too badly about herself.

I don't feel any desire from her towards me and that's really hard to take. It makes me doubt her words because there is no SF to back up her claims of loving me. Sometimes I think she's biding her time until she figures out what to do and how best to leave.