My third wife ended our marriage in November. I thought dating would be a welcomed distraction, but in the end, I found I could not trust no matter how much I wanted to. All I could do is see in every woman I looked at a person whose word is worthless, whose commitment is tossed away with ease, whose promise to stick around is down with twisted fingers behind the back and whose first thought it so run as soon as any problems creep up.

Worse yet, all I can see is someone who professes love but doesn't care one bit how much they hurt another when they selfishly toss away marriages only months in without any real effort or trying.

I tried dating a woman and she was really becoming involved and I simply could not bring myself to trust so I decided to end it. I watched her pain and I cried time and time again, day after day and week after week because I feel personally responsible for hurting her. At one point I wondered if I had become the cold heartless person I see in everyone else, but then I realized that it actually mattered to me and it bothered me that I hurt someone, something I've not been shown in any of my relationships.

I know in my mind that I'm wrong in how I see everyone. But what I know and what I feel and what I can trust are totally different things. Perhaps I am too damaged now to ever be able to trust or to commit myself in a relationship. And I know that my attitude and feelings are poisonous and with them I'll certainly never succeed. So I suppose I have to resign myself to being a crabby old man who will be alone for the rest of his life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hi 3D,

I am just past my first (and hopefully only) divorce. I too have the same fears that you have that the next special someone will do the things that my xW did. I am going to push forward and date again, and see what happens.

Three things came to mind when I read your post.

1. All women are not untrustworthy.
2. How fast are your relationships? (i.e., first date to M)
3. The conflict within.

All women cannot be untrustworthy (sorry about the double negative). There are plenty of trustworthy women that I admire on this site. There are plenty of trustworthy women in Louisiana (I know a few). Of course there are rotten women (and rotten men). Perhaps you are not picking up on clues that the woman you're with is not trustworthy (I promise, last double negative).

Are you giving yourself enough time in these three Relationships to really know the woman before M? A lot of the suggestions the Harleys make on this site should help to build trust and expose when someone is not to be trusted.

You face a problem of trust, and I think that having been burned three times, you're entitled to feel that way, especially since it has only been nine months since your third wife ended the marriage. You're entitled to feel that way, but only for a little while. I would suggest that before you jump into dating again, you take some time to reflect on what happened. Just a simple Google search for "divorced men support group trust" gives 1.8 million hits. Just looking at a few of the sites I see the same issues that you're facing. They all have suggestions for resolution of these issues.

I was burned in my M, I choose not to give up on women. I hope you don't either. Instead of resigning yourself to being a crabby old man, I think you need to find your "inner stud" who is OK with being on his own. It would then be a bonus to share what that man has to offer with a GF/SO/W.

Best Wishes,

Giles

1. All women are not untrustworthy.

I know this intellectually, I'm just can't get myself to feel it or past the inability to trust now.

2. How fast are your relationships? (i.e., first date to M)

I was way too young for my first marriage (17), my second was rebound. On the 3rd, I was pretty untrusting and took it slow (at least I considered). It was about 3 months before we kissed for the 1st time and that was at her prompting. It was about 6 months before anything intimate and again that was at her initiation. She said at one point she was starting to think I was weird because I hadn't made any moves. I was so hurt and being overly cautious I just wasn't wanting to push anything at all. We dated for almost 2 years before we married and then she ended things (without explanation, has refused to explain to this day) 10 months in.

3. The conflict within.

I am well aware of this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

have you considered some good deep counseling before you even THINK about dating again so you can learn how to NOT attract the type of women you are attracting?

i went during the ending of my marriage. it is 2 years later and i am back to seeing her again for some things that have come up. i am NOT ashamed of it. i want to be as healthy as i can be! i want my relationship to be as healthy as it can be.

just a thought.
mlhb

thirddivorce,

You've got to walk before you can run. It sounds to me like you go into a dating relationship looking specifically for something permanent. That's a lot of pressure to put on yourself and on the other person.

Have you tried more "casual" dating? That is, dates that aren't intended to lead to anything? It may help you take the pressure off, and will give you the opportunity to spend time with more women and build your skills for reading other people and learn how they see you.

One strategy I've heard that I really like is to promise yourself you will have dates with 20 different women before you even consider going steady with anyone. Remember that not every date has to be a wine and roses dinner. Coffee can be a date. A game of tennis can be a date. When you're dating 20 different women, you're not trying to sweep anyone off her feet. You're trying to get to know more people, learn more about them and yourself, and enjoy yourself. Also, you can date women you like more than once. But no going steady until you've dated 20 different women.

Try it!

I think the best way to

20?!

i'd be lucky to find 2 decent men to date where i live! if i was dating 20 that would be half my town and we have a name for women like that round here! LOL


mlhb

raofl at mlhb.

3rdD - are you happy with yourself being alone or do you really feel you need someone to help make you happy?

Ash,

In some ways I am very happy on my own. I am focused on what I want to do and good things are happening. I do better in business, finance, etc. when I'm single. I enjoy many more freedoms and answer to no one.

But I miss the companionship. I like to pour out affection on someone and that place in me is empty. I like to have someone to talk with in intimate ways and that is missing. I just feel like there is part of me that is missing when I am alone.

I know some say that is unhealthy, but I don't necessarily agree. People are meant to be made whole as a family unit. Men and Woman are different in complementary ways. Marriage was about being dependant on each other, not about independance.

all right ash, not to thread jack, but how far upstate ny are you?? give a hint....

mlhb

Maybe instead of dating you should just spend some time getting to know more people in general in non-dating situations?

People who are dating often aren't behaving normally - only showing what they think you want to see and vice versa. It's not really a very effective way to get to know somebody, ESPECIALLY if you have trust issues!

Hobbies, volunteer work, church, etc. are better ways to meet people in their natural surroundings and acting more like their real selves.

(I never understood why people would go to bars to meet someone and then later be unhappy because they didn't want their partner hanging out at the bar so much LOL)

Also, what's so bad about just being by yourself for a while? I kind of enjoy not having to check my plans with anyone else. I can just be who I really am now and not worry if my outfit, hairstyle, what's for dinner, etc. is something another would approve of. Take this time to develop your own interests, hobbies, skills, friendships.
Just get busy being yourself in the best way you can. That way when you do meet somebody it will be easier for each of you to really know and trust each other unlike the artificial dating scene.

And slow way down! The involvements you've had in the past sounded pretty fast to me! Of course that's mostly because you relied on dating as a way to meet and get to know...

I personally will not get involved with a man who 'dates' women. Not only is it not effective in revealing what a person is really like, I think it makes it more likely a marriage will end in divorce. I've heard of dating referred to as practice for adultery. I also would not be interested in a man who wants a woman in his life in general versus wants ME specifically in his life. I wouldn't be interested in a man if I knew I was just one of the many women he's dated. I'd prefer a man who can stand on his own but WANTS me in his life.

I agree and disagree in some ways.

I met my second wife in church. I met my third wife at work. I don't do the bar scene. I'm not sure I'm using the dating word in the same context that you are.

I do hobby, volunteer, school, church, etc. I have no shortage of people to meet. I just joined weight watchers to shed a few extra pounds and what do you know, i'm the only guy there with 45 woman <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but I'm not there to meet woman or find someone.

But I'm just not a loner. I'm someone who likes company. I have a very dear female friend with whom I spend a lot of time with. We have nothing romantic between us and never have. We almost moved in together and shared a house we are so close. But that's part time. I crave that sort of companionship full time. It's not just about sex for me.

I'm not saying there isn't some show, but believe it or not I don't consider myself to be the most attractive and I don't buy expensive close and fix up my hair real fancy and go wash the car just to take someone out. I pretty much am myself and it's take it or leave it.

My first date with my third wife, I probably did the worst possible thing a person could ever do on a date. I laid out for her what I thought all of my faults were. Understand that we had known each other for quite some time and so I knew that I was attracted to her and wanted to be with her and she knew the same and so it was a "okay, so we know, let's start getting formal and start really getting to know each other" or at least I thought. So I spilled all kind of faults and bad habits and things I do wrong, etc. I figured if she didn't run off (and she should have) that maybe we'd work out. The fact that she didn't run off should have been the warning sign for me and I should have run <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think I was too damaged then to be honest just as I am today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I think I'm slowly resigning myself to being lonely. I have lots of company and am around people constantly. Almost too much so. I am around people from the minute I wake up to the minute I go to bed. I have people calling me non stop and I talk to people all day. But it isn't the same as someone I can really talk to. Someone I can tell how I feel. Someone I can share my dreams with. Someone who is glad to see me when I get home. Etc...

But everytime I even kinda sorta remotely get a hint of starting to even think I might have a semi informal date beyond just a casual other than aquaintance friend type thing the inability to trust issue comes up and I can't view the person with anything but all the things wrong they might do to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I see you and I'll raise you one.

Just kidding.

I share your feelings about trust. I have thought about this alot since - first - my separation, and later my divorce. It is my second divorce. I have no idea what went wrong, why he no longer wanted to be married to me, but I do think he changed radically (and I'm not the only one who has said that) - so perhaps it wasn't so much about trust and was more about people changing.

Still, if a person has character to begin with, unless hit with mental illness, you'd think they'd continue to demonstrate that character. Maybe it's about change and not trust - but for me that's almost worse. Trust seems more enduring - like if we can only find it for real next time, it will last. But change - we can't predict what, when, if, how...

Ah well - you can see what aloneness does to some people. It turns them into rambling philosophers.

And you can also see there are no answers. We just all have to do the best we can. Maybe trust is what happens when we don't care anymore - when we know we'll manage just fine either way.

rambling philosophers... hehehe

I went back to college after my second divorce. I have taken more philosophy courses than I have taken courses on my major (am seriously thinking about changing my major). I can debate the meaning of life, then tear down all of my arugments, then build them back up again until I (and everyone else around me has gone cross eyed). I've even dizzied a few of my instructors who live and breathe philosophy (I pride myself on that particular feat) ... :P

You aren't kidding about that particular one though I've not quite mastered the topic of love, relationships or women (to say I've not quite mastered them is a big lie, frankly I don't know squat about any of them, but I ponder the meanings or lack of them none the less)...

That doesn't change the state that I am in however. It is perhaps that I over analyze everything and to the extreme <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

third divorce

that is not your problem, your problem is that you haven't decided how to live your life, in other words, pick a philospohy of life, and then live it. . .

second, you are missing an the discriminate gene. . . the lack of being able to identify genuine for manipulative. . . start practicing your intellectual knowledge in real life with the opposite sex, and you might being to live your philosophy. . .

I have refrained from typing at you previously, because i figured you would eventually figure out that you are not making good decisions about women, and you would figure out why. . .

that is the final step, figuring out why you make poor choices, which results from lacking good observational and analytical skills about motivations. . .

wiftty

my therapist tells ME (this is only for me of course, i don't know anyone else well enough).. that i need to be still and work on looking inside of myself to figure out why i accept less than acceptable behavior from others.

she said it stems from my upbringing and being not made to feel good enough. there is still something inside of me that says i am not "good enough" to demand better treatment. that what i get is the best i deserve. and i need to look at why, as an adult, i still feel that way, and than break that pattern.

mlhb

I am well aware that the problem largely lies with me. I know that my selector is broken. Perhaps I should have titled my thread "unable to trust myself." But because I can't tell the difference and discern between whethe a person is sincere or they are just out to take advantage of me, I've reached a point where out of cautious and protection of myself I see everyone as the worst case because I can't tell the difference if they are or not.

All three of my past wives were substantially beneat me socially, financially, etc. I don't seek things out this way, at least not conciously. Even my recent relationship which I ended fits the same mold.

Someone suggested that perhaps it is self esteem on my own and I just don't think I can get any better. That's not the case. My dear friend at work is top class and above me a notch or so. Most people are absolutely envious of us. We go grocery shopping together, we went house shopping together (are both buying houses), we are furniture shopping together, etc. She's super model gorgious, sucessful in her career and as intelligent as they come. Our kids play together. We call each other and talk through all hours of the day and night.

Most people think we are an item, but we're friends. They are absolutely jealous of me in that so many people are after her, married men, single men, doctors, lawyers, you name it, etc... Perhaps that's one reason we are so cloes. I'm probably one of the few guys that hasn't made a pass at her. There's just never been anything between us in terms of chemistry. And that's mutual.

I feel good about myeslf (maybe too good) in most ways. Career, intelligence, accomplishments, etc. When people first get me, they mistake my confidence for being arrogant sometimes. But the people that know me well know a very different person. I'm very humbled. I don't think I'm better than anyone else.

Understand, I grew up in a relatively poor home. We were in a run down house in a run down neighborhood. Crime was high. The bike I had was stolen when I left it on the carport to go use the bathroom (in broad daylight). My parents scraped up every penny they had to send us to a private catholic school because the public school system here is horrible (Louisiana). That means we had no vcr, no cable tv, no computer, didn't eat out and got a six pack of cokes as a treat about once a month. In the private school, we were the only kids that had k-mart jeans with patches over the holes while everyone else wore guess and jibaud and zcavaricci. My idea of getting a new pair of shoes was a cousin that handed down his prior year's school shoes so I'd have a new pair to sport while my friends were sporting Nike and Rebok and Air Jordon's and stuff. My parents couldn't give me a car when I turned 15, I had to get a job and pay for my own car. And I'm forever greatful for the sacrifices they made for us. They could have been better off if they didn't proiritize the schooling of their 3 children over the basic things of life most people take for granted.

So I had very humble beginnings. And I busted my but to get where I'm at. But that doesn't make me feel like I'm better because I got out. It makes me understand those who are stuck in the rut but are trying their best. My third wife was a single mother of two, deadbeat ex husband, driving 40 miles each direction to work a full time job that was grueling and miserable because it paid a few dollars an hour more than anything local to her and barely allowed her ot make ends meet for her kids. She never asked for or wanted anything for herself. If she got a few dollars extra, it was going to be something for her kids.

So enter the romantic at heart. That's what I am. That doesn't mean I can translate that into romantic behaviors, but I am that way at heart. For example, my tastes have become more and more classy so my second wife had fresh flowers continuously in the house. Every few days I would get some fresh flowers and bring them to her. For the duration of our marriage not one day passed that she didn't have fresh flowers. For my third wife, I said "good morning beautiful to her" every day without fail whether it was by text message or phone when we first started dating or in person after we married. I continuously brought home cards that expressed how I felt about her (and believe me, I was selective as could be, I would sometimes spend an hour or more looking for just the right card). But I can do the most unromantic things sometimes to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Typical guy in that regard. Anyway, I'm rambling.

But understand that in my favorite movies appear titles like Pretty Woman and Nottingham and Titanic and the likes. Notice each one is a class mismatch. Particularly the Pretty Woman story. I don't go out looking for it, but I think subconciously, I dream of being the rescuer. It's not about being better than anyone.

I don't truly think I looked down on my wives. I never looked down on them. I do think I wanted them to better themselves, but I never expressed that or pushed them in any directions they didn't want. I just tried to share some exposure to art and music and reading and finer things. My third wife got offended when I brought her roses or fresh flowers. She said they were a waste of money. I wanted to get a silverware and glassware and dinnerware set and she resisted and so I didn't push it (she had a mix and match collection of plastic cups from various restaurants, etc.). She would have rathered me to spend the money on the kids (and I did do all sorts of stuff for the kids, we would take them out to do things almost every other week, etc.). That's one thing she said she liked so much about me is that I liked her kids and I was always wanting to take them places and do things with them. That's part of why I was so crushed when this ended. I think it hurt me more losing her kids than it did losing her (not that both didn't hurt).

Anyway, this long rant and problem is to say that I have been continuously looking at it. I think I over analyze sometimes. I don't know why I'm drawn to that situation. It's not just in relationships. In real life, most people say I'm way too kind hearted. They say I need to learn to say no more. I would give the shirt off my back to help someone in need.

In part, I've been very critical of my ex wife here. If it were not for the way she deliberately hurt my children and used her children to hurt me, I probably wouldn't have those thoughts about her. But truth be told, most of my criticsm is out of pain. Almost everyone I know including people who know her say that I was a target and she was just using me to support her and her children.

And it looks an aweful lot like that may have been the case. But for some reason I just want to believe people are good and so I struggle with that picture of her. I remember the person who was offended when I bought roses because the $40 I spent on roses would have taken the children to the zoo for a weekend (even though I had plenty of money to still take the kids to the zoo, she's never had excess so the idea of spending something on her instead of the kids was offensive).

And don't get me wrong, I've described myself positively, but I'm by no means perfect. I have plenty of faults. I thought I was being honest or sincere when I laid out all of my faults and problems that I recognized and ones that my prior wives had pointed out to me, etc. to my third ex when we first started dating. I was being real and honest because I value honesty as a very high priority. I thought it would be dishonest to sell her the self that she see's at work (full of confidence, successful, appearing to be even arrogant to some because of my confidence, very intelligent, etc.).

The bottom line is that I absolutely know that I'm broken. I still can't trust. It's probably myself that I can't trust most. And that bothers me because I'm a person that believes people are good and sees good in everyone and suddenly now I'm so jaded and negative about anyone that there is any interest in a relationship with. The moment my interaction with someone because anything more than just casual or friendship, I immediately begin seeing my hurt through them.

I know this is long and I've rambled and sorry for that. I just need to vent once in a while and other times by writing it out, when I reread I discover things about my own thoughts that I didn't see before so this is as much for me as it is to reply to anyone else.

So I was broken before, because I saw everyone as nice and perhaps that's not the truth and who they really were. But now my defense mechanisms have taken me to the other extreme and now I cannot see anyone as nice in this particular role (relationship).

Ugh, I type at 100+ words a minute and normally know my errors just from my typing. I'm on a new wireless keyboard and apparantly I go too fast because it misses letters here and there. Because of the length of my post, I'm not going to go back and fix them so for that, my apologies, it's readable but continues missing letters in several places.

It is unfair to saddle other women with your former wive's baggage.

It is unfair to saddle other women with your baggage.

no, you don't analyze properly. you see everything through your colored glasses, instead of from a buddhist point of view. . . life is what it is. . . not what you think it is. . .

stop trying to see the world through your eyes, but for what it is.. . . that's a big difference. . . look at it as if none of it affects you, and will go on and on if you don't interact with it. . .

you rambled alot about non sense. . . most of your rambl emisses the point of you. . . your wife you didn't like to spend money on flowers. . .HELLO! why didn't you figure that out before you got married? and then eliminate her from your list because she doesn't liek the same behaviors that you like. . .

or is it you can't adapt to be a couple. . . you want to live life as you want to, regardless of other's opinions and feelings?

you need to decide what kind of life you want to live. . and then live it. . but you still haven't decided what kind of life to live. .

wiftty

do you really want give up being jaded and untrusting? if so, what percentage of your untrusting nature are you willing to give up right now - this minute?