Froz,

I see/feel/hear your pain.....am living much of it right now. But my H is totally apologetic and DOES something about his unintentional mis-steps.

You're right...there is a difference. Sorry I haven't read much of your sitch lately so I'll take time to do that before posting more.

Thanks,
Ace

Neither of has posted about our situation in a long time.

I stopped because this is usually the result.

I am pretty disappointed in myself that I outbursted. Learning how to control my emotions was difficult work for me, but I have been successful for a very long time. Lately I seem to have backslid.

I am not going to take responsibility for a failed recovery.

Froz,

Were you ever part of the PA thread over on the Recovery board?

http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/PATraits.html
http://www.angriesout.com/couples8.htm

Here are some links people recommended there at times.

You need to move your buttons. You are not crazy.

You had a right to be upset at him for agreeing to something that important then not following through.

Keep your head up.

I have read some on the PA thread. I've read books, as well. I understand the behaviors and I know how to recognize them now.

The hard part is getting others to believe me regarding what is really going on - not that anyone NEEDS to believe me, but it definitely enables PA and offers a certain amount of validation when people buy into it.

I know that I'm not crazy. But it also helps so much to hear it. Thank you for speaking up.

Frozen - I believe you. You are NOT crazy. I don't buy into Pat's stuff. I tried to help him on his thread, but have just gotten worn out reading it. I will let others with more insight try.

He is likeable and believeable, but like Noodle says, something just isn't right............

Believer believes me? That's kinda funny. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Thanks

Hello Frozen:

I just posted to your husband and wanted to send you the same encouragement I sent him.

Passive-aggression was a key part of our marital dysfunction. I know just how maddening and debilitating it is to live with on a daily basis.

The fact that you both know the issue and the solutions is such a huge step forward. Many people never get that far.

It took my husband a long time to go from an intellectual understanding of what he needed to do to an actual implementation of it. But he did finally do it, and the impact on both of us is very difficult to over-estimate.

If your H can get there, it will make a world of difference. But remember, you are asking him to change a worldview. Basically, he needs to alter his entire approach to life. That's not an easy thing to do. He needs as much patience as you are willing to give.

My advice to you would be to continue to point out every instance of P/A behavior, lying, procrastinating, keeping secrets, blameshifting, gaslighting. Point all of them out, but understand he will not be perfect. Just as you will not be perfect in containing your angry outbursts. But you are working on them, and clearly making progress.

For both of you, look for progress, not perfection.

My other piece of advice to you is to trust yourself. Most outsiders will never be able to see the P/A behaviors in him or understand them for what they are. Your understanding of it, and your belief in your own judgement needs to be good enough for you.

Take care,

Tru

Really??? So it IS possible???

Because lately I have felt like giving up - almost every day now. I am ready to move forward. I want to feel safe and cared for. I'm tired of living in fear.



He gets VEERRRYYYY angry when I do this. He feels attacked, criticized, blamed, "falsely accused" and as a result he feels very defensive...so what's the point? It feels like I'm just LB'ing him.

I have even tried to perfect my approach by using only "I" statements, monitoring the octaves in my voice, etc...same result.

I appreciate that you came out of lurking to share the benefit of your experience with me. It helps more than I can say.

And how do you know when it just isn't gonna happen and it's time to take the loss and move on?

So what if he gets angry? So freakin' what? He can get as angry as he wants. At this point, YOU will not care.

You are forgetting Part II of the "call them on their behaviour" method.

Part I: As stated above, continue to point out every instance of P/A behavior, lying, procrastinating, keeping secrets, blameshifting, gaslighting.

(okay, you got that part. But - )

Part II: After calmly pointing out the above-mentioned offense, WALK AWAY. Do NOT stand around waiting for the P/A to agree with you, or empathize with you, or validate you, or apologize to you. THE P/A is NOT GOING TO DO THAT.

Just WALK AWAY and let what you've said sink in.

Repeat, and repeat, and repeat.

If the P/A wants to talk about what you've said, they'll come to you.

Repeat, and repeat, and repeat.
Mulan

Hi Frozen.

My mind has been working really hard to make sense of some similar issues that you have been working on too.

It is Patriot’s job to act with predictably acceptable behavior, same as yours.

Just acting predictably is not exceptionally caring. Period.

When someone acts predictably for a very long time, then you “trust” that they will make the same predictably responsible decisions when faced with any fork in the road.

Someone can be predictably responsible, or predictably irresponsible. It’s pretty much one way or the other. Someone that acts predictably responsible for a long period of time (to be determined by you) is worthy of trust.

When they are predictably irresponsible (or immature) they just are. You can reasonably conclude that they will remain that way until the pattern is broken and rest well assured that you are perfectly sane while doing so.

I think that my personal failing is that I have a very difficult time expressing what is not acceptable to me as a predictable behavior. (read: enabler).

And the more I try to make sure that I don’t act as a person that enables crummy behavior, the more I’m flabbergasted that I haven’t been tough enough; I either haven’t expressed myself clearly enough, or I haven’t entrenched my boundary well enough.

I know couples where there is one person that just seems to treat the other awfully. The submissive partner seems to always act with predictably acceptable behavior.

Since I associate this concept of severe boundary enforcement with being a bad man, I have to reinforce my own actions with view of the greater good. I am not a “bad man” when I enforce reasonable, responsible, caring boundaries. Period. Even though I might catch a lot of bullsh!t trying to justify my actions to my W as reasonable. She will often even say “well that’s because it’s not important to YOU”.

A really smart person got me to think about the difference between rebellion and weakness as motive for undesirable behavior.

What really is the motivation for someone’s behavior weather they are a traditional passive aggressive person or not?

What is their true goal?

Is it an issue of long term moral sickness, or is the impending issue and the associated unacceptable behavior a simple play on power that really wouldn’t make a difference in the long run?

All good questions to ask.

The more I think, the more I’m convinced that the answers have to come from within our own.

The journey to obtain is sometimes as important as the answer sought.

Plank!

Love the way your mind processes information. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


YES! I was pondering this very topic this morning - predictable responsibility and maturity. Occasionally, everyone falters in their predictability. What differentiates the mature from the immature (other than the frequency of these errors) is their response.

A mature person who makes a giant mess would clean it up, pay for any damages it caused to anyone else's property, and take precautions against such an occurance in the future.

They take responsibility and BECAUSE they know they will accept the responsibility, likely they will work even harder to prevent such an outcome because not only do they wish to avoiding heaping a mess on someone else but also because THEY wish to avoid the consequences for themselves.

An immature individual will be thoughtless and careless. Who cares what sorts of messes they make? They aren't going to accept responsibility and they aren't willing to suffer the consequences after the fact, so why bother to be careful?

They'll do anything to get out of cleaning up the mess. They certainly wouldn't pay for any damages. If they fail to escape some consequences, you'll likely hear them complaining about how hard it is or making excuses.

It reminds me of my 9 year-old stepson when I ask him to pick up his toys. He will tell me that it's too hard and it's too messy. I'll walk in the room a few minutes later to check his progress and he will be sitting there fiddling with one toy with a "this blows" expression occupying his face.

I remind him again. He'll drag his feet, moaning and groaning and complaining. Nevermind the fact that with all the time he has WASTED, he could have accomplished the task and been off enjoying himself.

This is how MOST children behave and they continue to behave in this manner if it works.

A mature adult would not do this. They would find it unacceptable and even embarrassing to watch someone else stepping over or around their mess and it certainly wouldn't please them if they managed to successfully convince someone else to clean it up. They wouldn't be glad to be off the hook. They would refuse to allow themselves to profit at someone else's expense.



This has been a failing of mine, too.



Oh?



I wholeheartedly agree, though there are some who might not, which doesn't make their philosophy better or worse...just different.

Froz,

I think plank hit some of it with th enabler part.

Look up Conflict Avoidence and Codependent.

I hit the trifecta, I am/was a codependent, enabler with conflict avoidence issues.

Those traits will keep you enmeshed with a passive aggressive person in an unhealthy way.

This is part of working on yourself. Owning what is yours.

It is a dance that you have taken a part in as well.

Now his predictable behavior although not acceptable to you, you have accpeted.

What is going to probably be hard is boundary setting.

You need to figure out your boundaries and enforce them.

Progressive enforcement of your boundaries is essential.

Been working on those things for quite some time now, along with Rescuer Syndrome.

I have to say this again, Froz, wow wow wow.

You my dear are so grown up!

Go back and read your old thread with all your old temper tantrums, and now see how you sound now.

The thing that strikes me the most is that you are so much clearer on what is HIS stuff and what is YOUR stuff.

That's a very strong place to be.

You are in such a better place to make decisions for your life. You've earned your ticket out if you decide you need one.

I love the fact that you are finally getting to the WHY you choose damaged men. Good good good. (I'm doing a happy dance for you!)

I have worked harder on this than I've ever worked on anything.

Of course, there was something specific motivating me. And it's the same thing that motivated me to make all the unhealthy choices that I've made.

Be more, do more, accomplish more, be a better this, be a better that and THEN he'll think I'm worth it.

It never worked before and it isn't working now, but I won't say that there hasn't been any fruit for my effort.

Anyway, thank you for your compliments. I honestly thought no one noticed.




NO WAY!!!

What isn't working is that you can't control Patriot no matter how "good enough" you are.

But the beautiful thing is that what has worked is that YOU have grown so much.

The wonderful thing about old threads is we have a record of where we were to compare how far we have come.

You've done good!

I'm sorry. I didn't *quite* hear you. Could you say that again (and again and again)? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Thank you, BR.

Frozen:

Sorry to take so long to reply. But in answer to your question, yes, people who use passive-aggression can stop. They can learn to trust those close to them, to express negative emotion rather than passing it on to others.

It's not easy. It really does require a change in they way they view the world, but it is doable, especially when their partner is helping by refusing to display their anger for them. Like you are.

One thing that helped me in learning to control myself was the whole concept of projection and projective identification. Are you familiar with these?

Projection is a psychological process by which we unconsciously project onto others the traits that we reject in ourselves. For a person with a passive-aggressive world view, what they hate about themselves generally is their feelings of anger. They view anger in personal relationships as a terrible thing and reject it totally in themselves. So, he/she would use projection to see themselves as a laid-back never angry person, and might see their spouse as an uptight always angry person. Not factually true in either case, but their perception.

Projective identification is really interesting. Melanie Klein first observed this and wrote about it in the 1940s and it is now accepted dogma.

What she says is that if someone projects a particular trait or emotion onto you for long enough, it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will actually change slowly over time to become exactly what the other person sees you as.

So, the spouse of a P/A person often becomes the angry, controlling person the P/A sees them as if they stick around to be treated as such a person long enough.

Learning about those projection and projective identification really helped me pull out of my anger. I didn't want to be an angry person, and especially didn't want to be angry for someone else. Especially someone who then held it against me and used it as justification for affairs and other negative behaviors.

That was major motivation for me to change.

Tru

Frozen:

Sorry to take so long to reply. But in answer to your question, yes, people who use passive-aggression can stop. They can learn to trust those close to them, to express negative emotion rather than passing it on to others.

It's not easy. It really does require a change in they way they view the world, but it is doable, especially when their partner is helping by refusing to display their anger for them. Like you are.

One thing that helped me in learning to control myself was the whole concept of projection and projective identification. Are you familiar with these?

Projection is a psychological process by which we unconsciously project onto others the traits that we reject in ourselves. For a person with a passive-aggressive world view, what they hate about themselves generally is their feelings of anger. They view anger in personal relationships as a terrible thing and reject it totally in themselves. So, he/she would use projection to see themselves as a laid-back never angry person, and might see their spouse as an uptight always angry person. Not factually true in either case, but their perception.

Projective identification is really interesting. Melanie Klein first observed this and wrote about it in the 1940s and it is now accepted dogma.

What she says is that if someone projects a particular trait or emotion onto you for long enough, it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will actually change slowly over time to become exactly what the other person sees you as.

So, the spouse of a P/A person often becomes the angry, controlling person the P/A sees them as if they stick around to be treated as such a person long enough.

Learning about those projection and projective identification really helped me pull out of my anger. I didn't want to be an angry person, and especially didn't want to be angry for someone else. Especially someone who then held it against me and used it as justification for affairs and other negative behaviors.

That was major motivation for me to change.

Tru