Froz my dear you are da bomb and I am so so so proud of how far you have come.

You are a wonderful lady!

(snicker) I hope you have learned to tell yourself that! (sounds like you have). I remember telling you long ago to say I love you to yourself in the mirror, and your reply sounding like you thought I was nuts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

frozen--didn't get all the details, but seems like we're in the same boat. My H signed the "Policy of Joint Agreement" and agreed to the "Policy of Radical Honesty", but it was all smoke and mirrors. He was still lying about some details and contact with OW. Trust HAS to be earned, and it has to be earned through a drastic change in behavior. Unfortunately, I haven't seen that either. I get all sorts of chivalry and bull****, but honesty and openness I have yet to encounter. And, I'm losing patience as well. How long do we wait for the promised changes??

I had sort of come to the conclusion that the best-case scenario was that it could be managed.

It's a tricky, passive-aggression, isn't it? The amount of negativity, anger and particularly blame that is involved is astounding. But from my viewpoint, what makes it seem like it would be so very difficult to overcome is that it's all HIDDEN. Without bringing the distorted thinking patterns into the open, there seems to be little chance of altering them.

I read something in a book once that stood out to me. It said something along the lines of..."Passive-aggressive men are not as good as they appear to me, nor or they as bad as they think they are."



Well I relapsed recently, as you may have read. I've learned how to NOT do it. I just chose to not care. I'm beyond frustrated with the situation and with the lack of progress. I feel pretty tricked about his lack of effort in Recovery and angry about it, too.



Yes.



Fits like a glove, that statement.

<pinning on my BR for Prez button>

confused,

I can tell you some of the things that have helped me:

I have studied passive-aggressive behavior until I fully understood it - the factors that lead to someone becoming that way, what the behaviors are designed to accomplish, etc...

The best book I found was Living With The Passive Aggressive Man.

I have studied boundaries - powerful skills that are absolutely life-changing, not just in marriage, but in every single area of my life.

Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend
Boundaries in Marriage also by Cloud & Townsend

Both of these books also have workbooks available.

Another book that really helped me was Changes That Heal, also by Cloud & Townsend.

The method that TruBluz posted to me has been very effective in the past (avoidance of reacting when I am angry).

In the situation when Patriot reneged on our deal to POJA the job and he initially told me that he didn't do it on purpose, I calmy looked at him and told him that I didn't want to discuss the issue until he was ready to be honest with me. He sat there, blinking, for a full 5 minutes and then he blurted out the truth.

Of course, I kind of did a downward spiral after that.

There is also something a good friend told me about dealing with PA behavior. I found it to be so profound that I printed it and I carry it in my purse. Here it is:

What works for me when dealing with a PA is to not even try to make the case about what they are doing or what their motivations are...but rather with *I* am feeling and what I will do about it.

So then as an example...rather than saying "You are stonewalling me" you can say "I feel stonewalled and unheard so I'm not going to continue until I am convinced that it's worth my time and effort."

Make sense? Use the basic model "I feel, believe, whathaveyou...so <insert consequence>" and what it would take to regain your cooperation.

Noncooperation is a very effective way to deal with PA tactics, imo, because you don't HAVE to catch them or nail them to the wall...all you have to do is say that what you are presently getting is not enough to keep you invested in the situation/conversation, etc...

Very smart lady, my friend.

I'd make a terrible president ~ LOL!


This is an excellent example of boundary setting - it can be applied to all kinds of conflict.

It requires no action on the part of the other person. It simply draws and boundary and communicates it without selfish demands.

ty for the title change.

BR has been a great help to you.

GO Bramble! GO Rose! It's your birthday! It's your birthday!
Too much? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

In that case, maybe we should nominate my friend!

What is up with this? If I am upset about something or tell him that I didn't like something or that I would have preferred he respond in another way or share with him that something hurt my feelings...he either gets angry with me, starts sulking, pouting, self-bashing, self-pitying, "I can't do anything right, this sucks" attitude.

I dread being open with him about something that bothers me because this is almost always the result.

When this happens, it is so annoying to deal with that I don't even want to be around him.

I have tried just telling him that he is free to feel or behave in any many he chooses, but that I don't want to be around him when he is behaving that way and to please let me know when he is finished.

When I do that, he says things like "Why do his feelings not matter".

What is up with this? Is there a better way for me to respond? Am I only succeeding in discouraging HIS lack of openness by distancing myself from this behavior?

This is where the walking away comes in.

My FWW was exactly the same way. We had 3 MC sessions where I kept saying I don't get it.

She gets angry at me that I am angry or upset.

Then in the end the pity party comes out. And somehow nothing changes. She is the victim. No matter what she does it is never good enough.

Somehow I am defective and I can't get over it so why should she try.

Sound familiar.

So now if it starts down that road I excuse myself.

I tell her I know how it will end.

My changes have made this easier on me.

I had to take away my own permission to lash out because when I do it turns to my lashing out.

That is the game getting the other person off balance where the flip can occur.


I have gotten much better at it though then I used to be. I would say in the last 6 months or so I only slipped up once.

If you stay calm cool and collected and stay on task it will help.

aaah...

my dear.

This is manipulation on his part. Notice how the spotlight goes from him to you?


If it is about HIM, then he has to change - and this puts him out of his comfort zone.

If it is about YOU, then you need to change - ie make him feel comfortable about his behavior.

This is why you need to be very clear on what is his stuff and not your stuff. This is why I wanted you to deal with your control issues in the past - NOW we have better clarity.

When temper tantrums start (my husband does this to me on occaision) I just walk away after I have stated my truth.

I can't force him to own his behavior, but I can refuse to take it on me if it is not mine.

See the distinction?

Yes, although you forgot to mention the part about how I am making a big deal out of something that isn't that big of a deal.




Well, I have not lashed out, nor will I. But it IS very annoying. It is a behavior that I am finding difficult to admire or respect. To me, it looks selfish, immature and shows a lack of taking responsibility and a lack of care and concern for the other person and their feelings.

It does not make sense to me that someone would be more concerned with how THEY feel and how THEY look regarding their hurtful behavior than the person(s) that it harmed.



So Freeloader thinking?



Gotcha.



Yes, I see. I did not try to make him take responsibility for it. I didn't attack him. I didn't even really say much of anything to him except that I didn't like it and requested for him to let me know when he was done.

I distanced myself from the behavior also. I suspect it hurts him when I do this.

Know what?

I am terrified about doing this. I am afraid of his anger. I am afraid of what he will do to retaliate or punish me. I feel sure it will be in some way that I won't quite see it coming or really know what or why it is happening. But he knows all of my vulnerable places and I feel sure it will hurt badly.

And he knows this, and is exploiting it.

The answer here, for you personally, is to move your buttons.

Yes in a perfect world, he'd not take advantage of your fear to gain his own sense of comfort.

But, since we are about reality here, and you know this is what he does, then you move the buttons and you do not tell him where they are again until he has proven that he is safe.

Thats a boundary.

How?

Make a decision.

You get to choose how you react.

Okay, I feel kind of dumb about this, but I have trouble understanding euphemisms.

My brain is saying: does not compute

I don't understand what you mean by "move your buttons".

Does it mean don't be hurt by something? Does it mean be hurt if you are, but choose not to react? Does it mean don't share enough with him to let him know when something bothers me? Does it mean act like it doesn't bother me?

You aren't dumb at all. *cough* self-love, remember?

You can choose your reaction, that includes, choosing to be hurt or not.

My husband used to say and do things that triggered emotional responses in me. I could go from 0 to 60 in about a split second when he would do that.

It was intentional on his part, and definitely part of the dance steps we danced.

I made a decision, that I was no longer going to be hurt and I was no longer going to react with anger when he punched my buttons.

It was hard to do at first. Sometimes, I was simply faking it. I had to remind myself that his His Truth, the truth that hurt, was not necessarily My Truth.

The worst part was, when I hid my buttons, he went hunting. He stepped up the assault to force me to go back to that dance step that he knew and could control. He needed me to go back to what I had been doing to be comfortable.

I held on. All of a sudden, I really WASN'T hurt, and I had no problem avoiding that anger reaction. I had separated his crap from my crap and all of a sudden, he had no power.

It just takes a decision.

A Buyer position is a bad place for you to be in right now - while he is a freeloader.

You need to put some boundaries in place to protect yourself until you determine whether or not he is going to repair his own issues. Then you can decide whether to move back to a buyer state or throw up higher boundaries for more protection.

Thanks for explaining.

So this means that it would be a bad idea for me to show vulnerability, right?

Like, never say..."I am afraid that you are going to reject me. I am afraid that you will think that I am stupid."?

This is very counter-intuitive to me because FOR ME, if someone said that, I would take special precautions to protect them from their fears.

The openness would elicit a protective response from me.

Are you saying that my openness is actually making me easier prey?

That sucks. I like that about myself. I like being a very open, what-you-see-is-what-you-get, real, authentic, honest person.

You mean only be that way with people who have proven themselves worthy of that kind of trust, don't you?

It is a shame to not be able to safely be that way in my marriage, but that's my fault for doing everything backwards.

That means no intimacy FROM me until I receive intimacy, right?

That means no throwing my pearls before swine, so to speak, until swine is not swine anymore.

I have a big giant weakness that has many facets to it. It is the same weakness that makes me easy prey in the first place and it is one that I am incapable of completely overcoming. I think this is going to be a serious problem.

Froz,

The whole button thing confused me too.

Try to be pro active or have an action plan for the behavior.

My wife and I have on ongoing conflict. She interupts me a lot. I think it is disrespectful and is a huge LB for me.

I seem to have a tolerance for it but occasionally I just get done and it upsets me.

That is just a background.

So this weekend my wife interpted me 7 times in one conversation. Doesn't let me finish a statement, tries to finish it for me and some times it takes me 5 miles off track.

So every once in a while I get upset about it. I tell her that she has interupted me a lot and on that day I do not have a tolerance for it.

She interupted me again and I just told her, I am done. I wasn't mad, if I put an emotion to it I would put frustration.

Now remember this was/is a huge LB for me. We discussed it in MC.

She immediately tries to turn it on me.

You have been in a bad mood all day, what is your problem.

Now I expected that or something like that. Before I didn't so what I used to do is react to that statement.

Which by the way was an untrue statement.

So before I would get upset with that statment and we could divert of the true topic which was her interupting me.

This sometimes escalated, sometimes not, usually if it didn't I just dropped it and let it go.

Now I know it is coming and avoid reacting to that.

I stay on topic.

This weekend I said "I wasn't aware of the fact I was in a bad mood all morning maybe that is why the interupting is bothering me so much."

We have discussed you interupting me for a very long time and the fact it bothers me will never change.

My other buttons are her making comments about my fathering, my husband skills, and me being like my abusive alcoholic dead father.

Now it is getting hard on her because I ignore those hurtful things and tell her they are hurtful.

You have to figure out the what,when, why where and how it gets to the point and stop it.

So no you don't need to stop being open.

It is not weaknes to love. It is not weakness to be intimate.

It is weakness when you let someone take advantage of you.

I never recomend witholding.

For now call out the behavior. Let him know you know.

It is very deflating to my wife when I say. I know where this is going and I chose not to take the ride.

I will get off at this stop. If you would like to discuss the issue fine if you want to attack me I chose not to carry on with that.

I thought that was weakness like I was backing down.

Now I know it is powerful because it removed her power over me.

Just an update, of sorts.

We are still at Step 1 of SH's plan. It's been a little over a month since our last appointment with him.

Step 1's assignment was for Patriot to figure out why he had an A and then to get me to accept it. Patriot has informed me that he is ready to have that conversation.

I have some fears about the 'get me to accept it' part. What if I can't? I don't want to be holding up Recovery because I have some sort of problem. I anticipate that this will be a problem.

I've read his Why Thread. From what I gather, he is saying that the reasons are:

-He didn't protect his weaknesses
That explanation only leaves me with more why's. Why DIDN'T he protect his weaknesses? Obviously lack of knowledge plays a part...after all, he didn't know about MB then.

But neither did I and I protected my weaknesses. When we first moved in together, I went to a wedding with a girlfriend of mine who was in town. At the wedding, I met a guy. I REALLY hit it off with this guy big-time - lots of chemistry. I really, really liked him and it was obvious that it was mutual. But I told this guy that I was in a serious relationship. After the wedding, I came home and told Patriot everything - including that I had been tempted. He acted as though he didn't care and didn't want to be bothered with it.

So I protected my weaknesses with honesty (in that situation). Why didn't he do that? The seemingly obvious answer to me was that I didn't WANT to have an affair. So I stopped myself long before I was faced with making that choice. He did not. To me, that probably means that he WANTED to.

WHY?

He says immaturity and fear of intimacy.

In general, I can accept immaturity as part of the why. But there is something about the fear of intimacy portion that I just don't have a full or clear understanding of yet and that I am still trying to make sense of.

Something that has always been and still remains a very big issue between us is, for lack of a better term...pursuit.

When we first met, I would say that I was the initiator of our relationship. Patriot was sort of involved in a relationship at the time. When I say sort of, I mean that it wasn't a committed relationship at all. It was really more along the lines of he was interested in this person and was waiting for her to recipcroate. She rarely did. She basically freeloaded off him and constantly kept him at bay.

Shortly after I came onto the scene, his sort-of-relationship with her ended and our relationship began. I sensed what I would describe as a lack of interest in me on his part. I did not trust my own judgment. I asked him about it. He claimed he didn't know what I was talking about.

I figured my sensors were just off and continued my relationship with him full steam ahead. But when some behavior on his part would indicate to me what I initially sensed, I would get upset about it and I would ask him about it - things like why he didn't seem to want to spend much time with me, why he never seemed to view other men as a threat (even if they really were), why it never seemed to bother him if we were apart and why he never really seemed to miss me if we were and eventually, as years went on, why he didn't seem to want to get married.

My questions were met with anger and defensiveness. I recall one specific instance in which we had a pretty big fight beacause I told him that I felt like he didn't want to marry me. He actually left the house over this fight, something which he had never done before. He went to his parents house (he said - still don't know if that is true or not). When he returned, he told me that he had confided in his parents about our argument. The three of them determined that I must just have some problem and that the reason I felt like he didn't really want to marry me was because I suffered from low self-esteem and just couldn't accept that it was true. That really pissed me off a month or two later when D-Day happened and I discovered that he had been having an affair since just after I went to that wedding with my friend - a year and a half.

Fast forward 3 years into Recovery and the pursuit issue is still ever-present...only now it seems even more magnified because I have a difficult time getting a straightforward answer about what he wants during certain times. For example, if I ask him if he would like for me to come along if he has to go somewhere, he feels afraid to tell me if he doesn't. I DO understand why he would fear telling me, as he thinks I will feel like he doesn't want me if he says he would rather go alone. I really can see why he would, but I would still like an honest answer.

So often he will say that he really, really does want me to come so that I will feel wanted. Sometimes he has said that even if I didn't ask. The sucky part about that is that often I don't necessarily WANT to go, like I don't mind either way, but I wind up going because I don't want to reject him or pass up an opportunity to spend time with him when he wants to. When he tries to make it look like he wants me but really he does not and I comply - then it seems like NO ONE is getting what they really wanted. It makes me feel tricked because if I would have known the truth, I would have opted not to go.

In all honesty, I do not "need" for him to want me every second of the day or it hurts my feelings. The truth is that I just want him to want it SOME time. It seems odd to me that it would never matter one way or the other to him. It seems odd to me that there would never be a point when he might say, "I think you've been spending too much time away from me and I am beginning to feel unhappy about that". It has usually (and still does, though a little less than it used to) felt as though he were trying to get away from me.

Maybe he does feel that way now, maybe he doesn't. Now I feel like I can't differentiate because there have been so many times that he said and acted like he wanted to spend time together or talk or whatever, in order to keep me from being upset.

As I explained, I do understand why he would want to try to keep me from being upset and I see how my getting upset about it could prevent me from getting honesty from him about what he wants...but we've already woven this tangled web! So NOW what???

If I feel unwanted and it hurts my feelings, what do I do??? Just accept his choice and not react to it is what I do now. But it's become such an issue that even if he SUSPECTS I feel that way, he will get angry and defensive and start asking me if I feel that way. In some cases, I didn't actually feel that way, but I quickly started to feel that way after he got defensive.

I don't trust him to tell me the truth if he thinks I will be upset about his answer.

I don't trust anything good that he says because I'm so afraid it is designed to manipulate me.

I don't see why he can't just tell it all - the good and the bad - and let me not like it if I don't like it as long as I am not attacking him for it.

But I don't know how to encourage this kind of honesty because my approval seems crucial to him and the truth is that I DON'T always approve. Even if I don't tell him, it's like he will start drilling me as to whether or not I approve...almost like he is begging for me to disapprove. When he does this, I don't know what to do because I don't want to lie and say that I like what he did/said.

Makes it damn hard for him to make an EN deposit when I don't believe anything good that he says.

So the part of accepting the WHY that I am struggling with is this. I didn't feel like Patriot pursued me ever, really - still don't because even when he does it, I don't feel like I can trust that he is being genuine.

However, he DID pursue in the relationship he was in when I met him. In fact, all the pursuit was on his part. From my limited understanding of the A, he also did some pursuing there.

Why not me?

If his explanation of fear of intimacy is accurate, it would make sense that he pursued in these relationships because he knew there was no risk of any requirement for intimacy from him. OW was married and she wasn't looking for a relationship.

But I still don't quite understand it all, because intimacy or not, I was completely meeting all of his needs. Back in those days, I wasn't even much of an LB'er. I only turned into Helga the Horrible after D-Day. Before that I was sweet <batting eyelashes>. So why have an A to avoid intimacy? He was ALREADY avoiding intimacy AND getting his needs met.

And what does it mean anyway that he didn't pursue me? Does it mean that he wasn't attracted to me because he found intimacy to be distasteful? Does it mean that he didn't want me? Does it mean that he DID want me and that's why it scared him? Or did it never even get that far because it was too scary?

And why did he marry me a month after D-Day when he did whatever he could to get away from me before that???

I have asked him that. The most recent answer I received was that he married me because he didn't want to be alone (and was afraid I would leave, given that we weren't married AND I had found out about the A), and because he knew that if we broke up I would tell people why we broke up and then everyone would know about the A, and oh...because he loved me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I don't understand what all of this means. Does it mean that he married me for reasons that really had nothing to do with who I am and now he's just trying to make the best of it? Like I wasn't really what he wanted but now he's already somewhat invested and just doesn't want to be alone?

Being alone is a big fear that he has. I don't want to be "settled for". But I don't know how to tell the difference and it is REALLY important to me. I don't want to be used and I don't know how to tell if I am. I don't want to be tricked.

He said on his WHY thread that his having an A doesn't mean that I am worthless. I don't believe that I am worthless. I believe that I wasn't worth very much to him. Maybe that's wrong...I don't know.

I sure don't feel like I was worth much to him given that he risked losing me. I also don't feel worth much to him given that he hasn't been much of a willing participant in Recovery until he saw that I was getting pretty close to leaving. Isn't that what that means? Doesn't that mean that he was content as long as I was the only one hurting and not healing but that if it was going to affect HIM, he was going to put forth effort?

I feel lost and lonely and afraid to believe anything good because it might be tricking me into believing that we have the same goals (intimacy) just so I will stay.