Hey slushy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My friend, I DO understand the fear of intimacy bit. I really do. It is why I married someone like my H. He has intense fear of intimacy and I have a fear/desire for it. Seemingly a perfect match until I got tired of him running away and decided to solve that problem with an A. What did my A accomplish? It gave me the "feeling" of being wanted/desired without having to *gasp* truly share myself.

Fast forward to me post finding MB. I have changed. I am not afraid of intimacy any more but he still is. So a lovely friend is working with me to go down to his level and slooowly try to draw him in.

I know you have seen/heard many times that the A is not about the BS. It is not. Truly it is not. I know it FEELS like it is about you but it was his fear, his immaturity, his choice.

Additionally my friend, he chose to marry you. Yes, the why's may sting a bit. I know my H M'd me because I gave him a deadline and it was looming. He was going to lose me. He told me years later he would have been content to live together and never marry. That hurt but it was his truth. Does he regret marrying you? No, I really doubt it. I think if he did have regrets he would have found another affair partner and bailed.

I am not sure what else to say. I know you have been on such a merrygoround of emotions it is hard to trust his words. What choice do you have if you are committed to trying this program with SH?

Hi Froz...I missed this previously...I'm so sorry!


Just curious....do you leave your doors and windows unlocked at night?

Or do you keep your home secure and only all entry to those that you KNOW are safe?


*snort* you are not that powerful.


I would talk to Steve about this and ask him what he thinks.


Do I mean withold love and affection? No... But do I mean hide your triggers and vulnerabilities until you are sure they will be treated with protection and care? yes.


You are not a victim. Take responsibility for your security instead of lying victim to your own weakness as an excuse.


Now as for your update.

Here's where I see you need to do some work still...

You are still judging him based on your own set of values and beliefs. You talk about how you protected your weakness before finding MB....because you clearly valued fidelity and monogamy. This is YOUR priority and value system.

Patriot clearly valued something else more than fidelity and monogamy. As we have discussed before, it was not necessarily a choice of you or the OW. (Stop making this about your worth, that if you had just been good enough, Patriot would have been faithful). It was a choice between priorities. Instant gratification without emotional ties may have been more important to Patriot than fidelity and commitment.

Is this still true? That is a quesstion for you to ask Steve. (this is the beauty of working with Steve...you get to say, Steve is my husband safe? Steve, is my husband serious about commitment?).

Steve has a very HIGH HIGH HIGH BS meter.

Honestly, Patriot seems to be the one stuck...and his responses on here have not been impressive...to me. I think he's really dug in behind his trenches.

Stick with Steve my dear. Like I said before, you've earned your ticket out if thats what needs to happen.

Actually, yes. My car, too. As a matter of fact, my car was broken into just a few days ago. I don't supposed you could really call it breaking if it's unlocked, but it was in my driveway. I am totally NOT being sarcastic.

The aforementioned "weakness" that I spoke about is ADD. One of the lesser known trademarks of ADD is weak boundaries, a tendency to be far too open, far too trusting. When someone with ADD is aware of these weaknesses, they do have an advantage in protecting them. But even the most aware ADD'er has an extremely difficult time paying attention long enough to accomplish it.

So yes, if it weren't for Patriot locking the doors and windows, I might already be dead. When he goes out of town, it is a concern that he has. Given that, I have big fears that I will make mistakes and be too open, too vulnerable (and at some point I will make a mistake) and that it will cost me.



Well, I didn't exactly word that the way it was in my head. I do not believe that I am responsible for creating the conditions that have led to the lack of trust and safety that I currently feel. However, I do take responsibility for putting myself here. Had I not made the choices that I made in the past - choosing to continue a relationship with someone who showed signs of unhealthy patterns and dishonesty, not trusting my own judgment when I recognized those signs, shacking up with someone who I was not married to (backwards) and D-Day preceding marriage (also backwards), well all of that IS my fault, my responsibility and was completely within my control.

So I suppose I AM that kind of powerful. (Hmph! Snort at ME, Missy!)

I will take your advice and I will talk to Steve about when is an appropriate and wise time for me to reciprocate intimacy and how to recognize it on his part.



I understand (I think). Although I must say that I find it very difficult to even FEEL loving and affectionate under these circumstances. I have concerns about whether or not I can begin to feel that way again at all, if the circumstances should change. I feel pretty far gone.



You are right.

It isn't an excuse.

My weaknesses present some obstacles and they make it so much more difficult on so many levels, but it doesn't make it impossible. Suuuurrre does make it hard for me, though, to already have some challenges with regards to self-protection in a situation where those skills are vital.

Logic tells me that one way I can take responsibility for my own protection is to avoid putting myself in relationships or situations that REQUIRE me to have constant vigiliance to that degree.



Well put. Makes perfect sense.

We had the Wrap Up The Why discussion tonight. I did not have the difficulty that I anticipated with accepting it. I feel like Step 1 has been successfully accomplished from both sides. I accept his why. I understand that the reasons have nothing to do with me.

I asked him questions about every relationship he has had and what they dynamics were like and the pattern is very clear and consistent throughout. Given that, it seems pretty clear to me that it had absolutely nothing to do with me. Relationships that lacked a requirement for intimacy were pursued. Those relationships in which the person DID have a desire or requirement for intimacy were used for meeting his EN's. As the inevitable conflict in those relationships arose as a result of the differing agreements (their Renter or Buyer to his Freeloader), it was used as justification to "punish" with PA behavior which very often included unfaithfulness...just like with me. Same pattern.

Quite obviously nothing to do with me, other than the very painful fact that I volunteered.

What a horrible mess I find myself in.

I wonder if there is really any hope at all or if I am just prolonging the inevitable.

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and insight. Your guidance is very, very appreciated by me.

I could have written parts of your last post myself, word for word.

I think that the understanding of "why" is important, but everyone here is left with "what now." I think that the question that people have to ask themselves is, am I in a relationship that has the potential for fidelity, trust, meeting needs, or are both people not capable of that?

And the next question is, if you don't have hope, what do you do next? Work on Plan A without any hope that it will succeed? I don't really know if you can put your heart into it if you don't have hope.

I could continue in the situation for a little bit, but eventually something would need to change. I don't think that I have hope as long as her family believes the things she says, and if they aren't willing to visit and see for themselves, it will take a while to learn. Eventually they will learn that she is the one with the lack of committment here, the only question is will it be before or after we are together.

What I hate to see is people on here that are really working hard to love their spouse, and the spouse is unfaithful over and over again. That is a shame.

Hi Scott. I don't believe we've met.



I think that people are what they choose to be. I think maybe it comes down to a matter of - are both people WILLING.

Often they are not. Sometimes they are.



Accept reality and avoid trying to change someone else's choice and make your decisions based on those conditions.



For me...I am not interested in that. Having D-Day prior to marriage changes things a bit for me. I am not in the position that I am trying to re-capture something I once had with Patriot. I never had it. Given that, it feels a tad demeaning to me to try to "win" him over. I already tried that. I was meeting needs left and right and he chose to have an A anyway. In other words, I don't think he was ever a Buyer to begin with. Also, we are 3 years into attempting to Recover.

Given that, if Patriot wants a life with me, I will need to see that he desires and is willing to do what it takes to have an intimate marriage.

In deceiving me about what he truly wanted and was providing, I "bought" on the premise that I was getting something that I was not. Had he told me straight up that he was not interested in a relationship that was open and honest and intimate and that the reason he was interested in me was because I was convenient and willing to give and because he just didn't want to be alone or if I would have seen that for myself...I probably would have made a very different choice.

Because that's not what I wanted at all. I wanted someone to choose me for ME, because they valued me as a person. I wanted someone who was captivated by ME...not because I provided meals, laundry and because I was smitten with them or because of circumstances and poor choices, happened to find themselves already married to me and decided to try to make the best of things.

I wanted to be chosen, not settled for or tolerated because I am already here now. I don't quite know what to do about that because that is VERY important to me. So you're right...what now?



Why do you care what they think?


I completely agree. It is a shame.

Here's a random thought...don't you think that often the unfaithful spouse doesn't fully invest in the marriage BECAUSE the BS is working so hard? Meaning that if the BS stopped holding up both ends of the rope, the WS would be required to either hold up their end or end the relationship (which, imo, would be a better alternative than a lifetime of continuing to give and give to someone who is only interested in taking)?

Frozen:
We haven't met but I read your post and gained a lot of insight about my current situation. Running through these posts, it is amazing, and a bit sad, that so many people are in similar situations.

The reason why I care what they think is because I think that they definitely have an influence on her. It was right after we went to visit them in April (something that I thought would help us), that are problems escalated. I think the thing that I want them to understand is that our situation isn't about US, it is about her. She could blame all of the problems on me, but until she decides to make a commitment to a relationship and put in the effort, the same types of problems will happen in all her future relationships. I don't know how to bring that up or even if they would be open to learning about it.

I think that sometimes people really do want the same things, such as fidelity, intimacy, and commitment, but they do not realize whether or not they are capable of making that choice. Sort of like you want to buy a Mustang, but you can't afford the car payment. For some people, they crave the attention from the opposite sex, and the admiration and conversation as well. For some people, getting those needs from the person committed to loving you (i.e your spouse) is more than enough. Maybe some people just don't know what they will be satisfied with.

In ragard to your last thoguht, I think you may have something. Sometimes my spouse asks me to list some of the things that I do for her, and I name them off, and then the response is, well, but you didn't do such a good job at this time. Maybe you are right, maybe the BS does work too hard. I know I have made mistakes, but DO make an effort to do everything that is said or understood to be needed. I can take pride in that she never uttered a need that wasn't met, at least one that I was capable of taking care of. Ben and Jerry's have made a lot of money from me! I could continue with a laundry list of things--including laundry, but I think you can't really see any of those things if you are in a fog.

Not an expert on this, but I think that if she had real girlfriends, or that her parents actually came to visit and saw what I did, they might open her eyes a bit, and she would see the situation for what it was. But she doesn't really make an effort to make friends with other women, and her parents seem unwilling to visit.

I just wish she would make up her mind one way or the other. I think if she actually left, she might come to her senses, but I don't think that is the MB way.

One thing I did learn is this: it isn't what people say that counts, it is what they DO. In a person's actions is their character revealed.

Not the most articulate thing I have written, thanks for bearing with my ramblings!

Scott,

I disagree.

I thought you articulated your points quite well!



I totally agree and love the analogy. Very astute point and I also see and most of all recognize this behavior in myself - the one where I am trying to accomplish or obtain something and the actions that I take are actually lessening the chance or hindering my ability to accomplish or obtain it.

So, using your analogy...

I want a Mustang. I can't afford the car payment. I go ahead and purchase the Mustang anyway, only now I have bigger problems and feel dissatisfied because the Mustang didn't even get me what I was looking for anyway. Maybe what I was really looking for was something deeper than a Mustang. Maybe what I REALLY wanted was to feel important and I somehow thought that having a cool car would make me feel that way.

It didn't make me feel that way and now I have a hefty car payment and financial problems to boot.

Same thing goes with affairs. What is someone who has an affair really trying to accomplish? Regardless of what it is - seeking to feel important to someone, seeking autonomy because they feel powerless in their marriage - the method of having an affair to accomplish these things not only doesn't give them the desired outcome, NOW they have a whole slew of OTHER problems to deal with!

Turns out having an affair was only a short-term, immediate gratification solution that came along with BIG TIME consequences.



I think that working hard is great. But there is a point where it becomes enabling and it takes wisdom to recognize when your efforts are healthy and appropriate and when giving more is only reinforcing someone else's Taker and entitlement and has turned into just plain being used and taken advantage of.

I see some BS's that reach this point and continue giving and hoping their spouses will learn by example and eventually reciprocate, actually signing themselves up for a lifetime of martyrdom.

Plan A is not about butt-kissing. It's about learning behaviors that pave the way for change and stopping behaviors that are hurtful (something that ultimately benefits their interactions with ALL their relationships) and offering a WS incentive and motivation to change course.

And when a WS is unwilling to change course and they are content with reaping the benefits of their new and improved BS...continuing to allow a WS to benefit without changing course offers them little incentive to do so. Why should they change when their BS is willing to do all the work FOR them??? This is the point in which giving more becomes enabling a WS to continue being selfish. This is the point when the WS actually feels even less respect for the BS because what was once kind of loving behavior on their part has now become the behavior of someone who doesn't respect themselves enough to say, "I accept your choice to continue on this path and you are free to do so, but I won't play a part in this any longer because I am worth more than that."

I am so rolling my eyes! LOL. I had forgotten that you are the QUEEN of...well ...I don't know but something...

Ok, so....if you truely have a disorder that makes you tooooo open...then it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to take steps to protect yourself from yourself.

You still don't get to be a victim.

If you leave your security boundaries turned off...then when you get robbed and hurt...then you certainly bear some responsiblity to your own pain, yes?

Your disorder...your responsibility to manage.



Reliving the past fixes nothing....

Might I point out that you are not living TODAY with the consequence of getting married 3 years ago. TODAY you are living with the consequence of your choice TODAY to stay married.

However....thats as far as your power goes.

Your lack of safety...that's Patriot's fault.

You simply contribute by volunteering.

The guy that robbed your car is 100% at fault for robbing your car. That the car was left open is not a defense in a court of law, right?

So, the same goes for your relationship.

You CAN NOT MAKE THIS RELATIONSHIP SAFE. That you chose to marry him had nothing to do with the fact that he has chosen to treat you without care.

You get to draw the boundarys, but you can't control his behavior.

So get off that powerful high horse *snort*

You are a volunteer ... sure...you do have the power to walk away. Every day is a new choice...no point in revisiting the past that can't be changed. Lets talk about your current choices TODAY that we can deal with!

Glad you got through the Whys. Now what?

Frozen:

I thought your response was very insightful, and one I need to take and apply more to my own situation. There needs to be some kind of effort by both people in all the responsibilities that take place in a home.

Yep---I liked the car analogy too! If you like that one, read the garden analogy in my main thread.

Not sure if this analogy made it into that thread, but when we had the "no contact" talk on August 9th, I compared actions in a relationship to two doctors treated a sick animal. One doctor thinks the animal won't make it, and proceeds to take steps to euthanize. The other doctor sees hope and proceeds to treat animal. Both courses of action cannot be successful, and I compared that to continuing in a relationship with me, and talking to other men that are possible (or real) romantic interests.

Anyways, thanks for the insights.

Awwww man, WHAT??? Queen of WHAT?!?

Argumentativeness? Forthrightedness? Saying the first thing that pops into my head? Lack o' tact? I have to know.



Don't I know it!

Since obtaining a diagnosis, I have gotten on medication, read anything and everything I could get my hands on, and been driven like a madwoman to search for solutions...and successfully found solutions to learn coping skills for many of the symptoms. It has helped in a great many areas and I will continue to do this.

I recognize that some of these things will never be cured, but I am shooting for "managed".

One of the ways I can manage the symptom of too much openness at the wrong times is to avoid close relationships with people who consistently take advantage of this weakness. Makes sense to me, anyway. Seems like that is Coping 101 - a combination of increasing coping skills and decreasing pain or threat.


You're right. Good plan.


Patriot made another appointment with Steve. I think it is for Wednesday morning. So I guess he will tell us what next. I think Step 2 is details talk. I could write an entire thread about my thoughts and fears on that, but I'll borrow Mel's analogy to illustrate what it is like to have that dragged out over a 3 year period...death of a thousand cuts.

It's Queen of Taking Things Literally, isn't it?

I bet that's it.

Melodylane always calls me Little Miss Literal.

LOL I can't think of the right word.

I just know that you are the only person I have ever met that actually LIVEs analogies...

maybe Queen of Taking Things Literally is appropriate!

I'm glad Pat made another appointment. Is he in IC yet?

oh and I think it's time for you to start giving back...to the boards...

I think you and wildhorses are a perfect match made in heaven....you are the perfect candidate to help her!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

**thud** <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

hah!

Gee, I really hope Mel didn't smash her hair when she fell.

Patriot did make an IC appointment. I think the appointment is next week.

How come everyone doesn't say everything literally, is what I can't seem to figure out. All these people beating around the bush...I have to guess what they are saying or try to read between the lines. It leaves WAY too much room for misinterpretation. If people said exactly what they meant, no one would have to guess and the message would be perfectly clear.

I IM'd two people, googled, and e-mailed Pep so I could figure out what "move your buttons" meant.




I try to look for threads that I might be able to help. Some of them are just so dang LONG - hard to wade through. So thanks for the heads up!

I'm still reading and studying and trying to catch up on the thread.

But I had to pop over here for a minute to tell you that I think I can see a bit of what you're seeing.

She sounds like me 3 years ago, only her tongue isn't quite as razor-sharp.

I like her.

She is very intelligent, articulate, and strong-willed.

Reading responses to her is serving as very good reminders for me.

I like this one:



I have worked through some of these "truths" - some VERY big ones, in fact.

But I still have a lot to work through still.

yes, so introduce yourself. you can work on your truths along with her. consider yourself assigned! wildhorses is your homework

besides, you are the only person i know with the stamina to outargue her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Frozen,

I just wanted to thank you for being so 'literal' here and stating your feelings, your growth and your situation with utter honesty. I have learned so much just by reading this thread alone. I hear myself when I read this. I will be seeking your other threads.

Thank you so much for saying that, SL.

P.S. Don't search too far back...it aint too pretty.