I am still very much a part of the dynamic. I have a lot of learning to do. I know that I need to change.

I want to TJ for a second. When PWC initially came home, he was on the bill with MB, with rebuilding, with doing whatever it takes, with IC, with MC. Within a month, none of those sentiments remained fully.

Today, I see some subtle changes, having to do with domestic support. That's just great, AWESOME, IMO. I'm still feeling quite empty when it comes to my highest EN's. Some of that has to do with my not being crystal clear about them, part of that is PWC's withdrawal.

I am very confused about how to handle this situation. THe only thing I feel that I can do is to identify and make stronger boundaries and figure out HOW I will enforce them, and to give.

AS for my EN's, Jennifer told me to invest as much as I can right now, and wait and see what level of involvement he chooses. I have some written assignments taht I am going to take care of today; they require a lot of self inspection, so it's going to take me a while.

Anyhoo, TJ over.

I welcome the threadjack, so feel free.

I have some questions, though. What, with regards to EN's are you crystal unclear about?

You mention withdrawal...how long has he been NC?

I've studied the heck out of some boundaries. I'd be glad to nudge you along with enforcement ideas. The first (and most important, imo) portion of boundaries is a clear understanding of what is within your boundaries and what is not. Do you feel as though you have a firm grasp on that?

I haven't come out and said "Affection is the only EN that I cannot live without!" I have said that it is my most important, but not that I cannot survive in this marriage without it.

He's been in NC for 3.5 months. After revealing much of what is currently happening to Jennifer, she stated that he could STILL be in withdrawal, and could remain for a full six months or more, and he will not invest much, if anything, until withdrawal is complete.

As for boundaries, I am mirky there. I have boundaries where adultery is concerned, as in NO ADULTERY, no close, personal, HIDDEN relationships, or I'M OUT.

Otherwise, I know I have boundaries, but I don't know WHAT they are specifically. I know, this sounds nuts! I'm unsure of how to express them.

I need to study the heck out of boundaries too, it seems. Where to get started may be a good question?

I started with the book Boundaries in Marriage by Cloud & Townsend. Then I read Boundaries . Both of these books are excellent and also come with workbooks, which I highly recommend. We also took a Boundaries class at a local church.

Instead of focusing on *what* your boundaries are, I would probably focus more on *how* to practice them. Think of boundaries like a fence that defines your property from others' property.

Things that are on your property are the things you are responsible for. Things that are not on your property are not your responsibility.

Things that you are responsible for are things like:

your thoughts
your feelings
your decisions
your actions, etc...I can get you a more complete list when I get home (at work now).

When I was first learning, I would apply this concept to just about everyone I encountered. I would watch interactions between people and mentally sort out whose property was what. I did this until I felt like I had a VERY clear understanding of property lines. This step is really important because if someone isn't clear on property lines and what belongs to whom...the rest of it is useless.

Am I making sense so far?

Frozen:

Mind if I ask you a question? Those of us on this website spend a lot of time trying to analyze behavior and situations. Sometimes the most helpful thing in relationships is just to reconnect, regardless of what caused the division.

So with that in mind, is their anything that either of you have done to reconnect recently that was particularly effective?

Well, when I think of boundaries like a property line, it makes a lot of sense to me. I have many boundaries in place for what sort of treatment I will accept.

The problem is ONLY with PWC, really. How do I relate that his lack of openness, honesty and sharing as being harmful to me? If we are to exist in a relationship, I need communication. Do I just say, "When you don't communicate openly and honestly and share your wants/needs/desires/truths/dislikes, etc., I feel sad and angry, and insignificant. I want you to tell me what you want and need from me in this relationship." What is the boundary? What is the enforcment?

There are always DRASTIC examples of drawing boundaries, in terms of things like physical/verbal abuse; I have rare occassion to read about alienation of affection and boundaries associated with that. I will order the book "Boundaries in Marriage". This sounds like what I need to get started.

Scott,



Well, probably the biggest thing that has done it has been when Patriot enthusiastically agreed to permanently give up all sports, to include football watching in favor of going shopping with me.

I really think this could work for you, too.

Omg, I am soooo kidding! Don't really do that.

Seriously, that's a simple but complex topic. I can give you some general things and if you need specifics, I would be glad to answer any specific questions to the best of my ability.

The biggest factor that I can think of that has led to connection is choice. Both people simply choose to connect.

If both people aren't connecting, I would start troubleshooting. What is preventing either or both of you from connecting (and I assume you are talking about emotional intimacy)?

The biggest obstacle for us has been fear - fear of LB's, fear of pain, fear of rejection, fear of abandonment, fear of intimacy itself as a result of any of the aforementioned fears being realized, either in our relationship with each other and/or in relationships in the past (and not only romantic relationships, but alllll the way back).

When Patriot and I have connected, I think it has been during times when we both simply chose to connect in spite of fear.

So that's my answer...choice.

SL,



A good rudimentary way to asses a boundary infringement is to begin asking yourself "is this okay with me". If the answer is, "No! This is NOT okay with me!", then it might be something to look at.

Keep in mind that boundaries cover a broad spectrum of things - almost EVERYTHING, I've found. This includes boundaries on YOURSELF.

Boundaries are limits - property lines. It is not okay with me to steal. That is a boundary that I have in place for myself. It crosses a limit that I have for myself.



Are you saying that the only area of your life that you have trouble with limits or boundaries is your marriage? If so, I would take a deeper look.

That implies that the problem is PWC. Now I am not saying that his lack of openness & honesty should not be a problem for you. I completely see why it would be (believe me, I do).

What I am saying is that your protection is ultimately YOUR responsibility. Know why that's a good plan? Because YOU are the only one you can control. Kind of empowering, isn't it, to know that your own protection is something that you can control, isn't it? It means that you aren't powerless at all.



I would advise that you take this a little slower and really learn about boundaries first and begin to practice them with small things before you tackle large issues.

The reason for this is because ineffective boundary setting can have some pretty negative consequences for you and has the potential to cause some setbacks. And I know you do not want setbacks or further damage, right??? <SL nods head with Froz>

So let's walk before you set off a-running at full speed.

I understand your questions. They are the very same questions I had. I also noticed that the solutions seemed much clearer with verbal/physical abuse and the enforcement in the examples I read was always to walk away or "leave the room".

I, like you, was frustrated. What about when LEAVING THE ROOM won't protect me or stop the bad from happening? Then what??? So I do understand where you're coming from.

But since you agreed that you don't want to practice ineffective boundary setting (I saw you nod!) then it's probably a good idea to start smaller.

The things that are your property are, just to name a few, your:

Feelings
Thoughts
Attitudes and Beliefs
Behaviors
Choices
Values
Limits
Talents
Thoughts
Desires
Love

*sniffles* I'm so proud!

SL, do look up her thread. It's chock full of good stuff, and...you'll see just how far she's come.

Nevermind, I went and found it for you. Her recovery journal probably has lots of stuff in there that can help you: Patriot & Frozen...A Recovery Journal

I find it easy to lose focus when I'm talking about my marriage and my part in it.

I am always thinking about how something will help or harm my MARRIAGE. I NEED to put the focus ONLY on me. I do find it hard to stay completely focused on me while trying to improve on my relationship with my husband.

After posting, I realized that my focus was off again. I certainly was not implying that I have no work to do. I actually feel quite overwhelmed with the work that I have to do, on myself. I feel like I need to focus on ONE thing at a time. I think boundaries is the best place to start right now.

While I'm doing that, I can contribute to my marriage as JEnnifer has asked me to do, to engage PWC. I'm already reading "The Language of Letting Go" by Melody Beattie, and plan on getting the books you have recommended regarding boundaries.

Thank you for helping me 'refocus' yet again. Sometimes, I feel like an utter failure at this personal growth/healing. I know that I have grown in HUGE ways. I've read some of my old threads, and cringe with how much anger I had. I still have a lot of anger to deal with, OBVIOUSLY. It's so easy to point the finger at PWC, he's made such HUGE mistakes. That does not absolve me of mine, however. That solves nothing.

SL, nodding her head in agreement...miles to go before I sleep...

BRAMBLEROSE!!!!!

haha! Since I am president...you can't complain!

Besides....its a beautiful...very human thread.

How embarrassing!!!

(This one's worse)

Confused, Crippled and Powerless

Geez, even the lovely title I gave my first post is pathetic.

I don't think I ever saw that one...

I started posting to you on the recovery thread.

You should be so proud of yourself.

I will be proud when I am no longer a participant in a dysfunctional, abusive relationship - however that happens to occur.

Progress is good...great, even. But I intend to take this all the way.

I am proud that I have worked very, very hard. Thank you for noticing. I don't imagine that I could ever get sick of hearing it.

Oh, thanks bunches, BR! I was searching earlier, and couldn't nail down what thread to read. I'll start there and then move on to the, um, WORSE one later.

I am humbled by the knowledge that I gain from people here. Maybe one day I'll have grown enough to give back, too.

Exactly, SL. You've got it.

The only way to improve your relationship is to focus on yourself.

Focusing on his property is "other control" (as opposed to self-control), not respecting HIS boundaries. It also enables him not to take responsibility for his OWN contribution. Why would he need to focus on himself if he has you to do it for him? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Good plan! How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.



Ahhhh...The Language of Letting Go. My mother bought that book for me a long time ago. She gave it to my best friend to give to me so that I wouldn't know it was really from her because she thought I wouldn't read it if I knew it was from her. I have no idea where she came up with the notion that I was so stubborn.

Good book.

Don't forget that there is also a workbook for Boundaries in Marriage.



What-evah!!

I disagree.

A failure at personal growth/healing is someone who is unwilling to listen and to look in the mirror for the causes (and the solutions).

You're doing just fine.

BR said this on the thread that she recommended, and WHAM, hit me right between the eyes. I really do need to root out the source of my expectations. I keep telling myself to SEE what's happening, instead of expecting an outcome. I keep forgetting to stay in the NOW, instead of looking at what I WANT, I miss seeing my needs being fulfilled. Just because things aren't done the WAY that I want, my needs are being fulfilled in the way PWC does it.

Example, he finishes the supper I just made, takes my plate, goes to the sink and does the dishes. Then he goes into the living room and plays with our son. I'm left with FREE time. I see it as him being withdrawn, because he doesn't SAY anything to me, he just does and carries on.

Stepping back, days later, I see what a fool I was for not noticing the love he just gave. It MADE deposits, but I tacked in squarely under 'domestic support' , not looking at it's multifuncitonal deposit, of showing affection, in his way.

bwahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!

I just spit diet Pepsi all over.