Again, I think you have to just tell him to make absolutely NO assumptions about you. If he doesn't KNOW, he will have to ask. If he is angry before asking you, you cannot do anything about that.

If he is angry, that is HIS anger. Don't feel bad about him FEELING. Just tell him what you really think on whatever current subject is in question.

It's also not necessarily a bad thing to tell him that you certainly don't want him to be angry, and have him clarify if there is something you DO that is causing his anger.

You can't keep him from being angry. That is not your business. You can avoid doing things that you know incite his anger, by being open and honest yourself, but you cannot KEEP him from anger.

Don't let his anger be yours or frustrate you. If he HAS a VALID reason to be angry, then you must work on yourself, in order to avoid LB him or DJ him yourself.

And you can tell him that his perceptions do not hold in this case, but I can see telling him that his perceptions are WRONG as an insult to him.

Do his feelings matter? Honestly, PWC's feelings do matter to me. Of course, I would like him to feel happy, not sad, contented, not angry. I do what I can to enhance his day, but I cannot keep him from being angry with something I may or may not think. Even if I DO think what he thinks I'm thinking, it's what I think, and that can only be changed by ME. He must accept that you MAY or MAY NOT feel a certain way about something.

Good lord! Did that make any sense, Froz?

Because relationships are a process. And part of that process might be to help each other gain greater understanding.

Some folks haven't learned how to separate what they are feeling from what their spouse is feeling. Some folks have little foundation for understanding that their personal feelings and reactions *are not necessarily how other people feel and react*.

Intimacy isn't about always getting it right the first time (or subsequent several times). It's about working together honestly and with integrity.

If he is erroneously assessing your feelings and attitudes, then it would help if you could talk to him about what data he is using to make his miscalculations. Saying "that's not what I feel" - to a man who has spent most of his life hiding his own feelings, disguising them or projecting false ones in order to manipulate - is going to leave him at the mercies of a system (his own) that hasn't exactly served him well.

He hasn't been outwardly honest with his own feelings so he probably is operating under the subconscious belief that everyone else is dishonest emotionally as well. Secondly, he has spent his adult life catering to his own emotional happiness with little concern about anyone else's emotional wellbeing. He just doesn't have much of a base at this time. If you are willing to discuss with him upon what he is building his assessment with the goal of achieving greater understanding of each other - then that's a win-win. It would benefit both of you to discuss it with the goal of understanding. If his goal is for you to agree that his assessment of your feelings trumps your own assessment of your feelings, then it's a lose-lose.

I guess it matters to know "to what purpose?"

You are both SO RIGHT!!!



I think there is probably something to this, so since emotions IS something that I understand very well, I explained it to him in a different way and we negotiated a solution.

I want to not be DJ'd.
He wants validation and for me to show him that I care about his feelings (which I did/do).

The solution that we negotiated is that he will state his feelings in an "I feel..." format. And then I will listen/validate/empathize.

Thank you very much, guys.

I learn when you post, Froz, so I appreciate you laying it on the line here.

I heard a very similar sentiment from PWC, about validation.

Froz,

Does Pat read your threads?

Him reading this would probably really help.

You are being DJ'd so it is a catch 22 do you let someone "tell" you how you feel, if they are wrong, or do you tell them how you really feel and invalidate them.

How about you being able to tell him how you feel without invalidating him?

I think the others have done a really good job with their advice.

Mine would be print this up and give it to him if he isn't reading it. I don't mean my post I mean the smart people above me.

Frog,
I knew you were a smart man.

Froz,

Seriously, it sounds like you are doing what you can, your part of the equation is done. It's up to your H to find a way to detach from you so that YOUR feelings aren't a part of HIS feelings.

He cannot control how you feel by getting angry that you feel the way you feel. He can certainly drive a nice, heavy wedge between you two, but stopping you from feeling? NOPE not gonna happen.

How does he deal with disappointment? How do you deal with disappointment? Do either of you BLAME one another for your FEELINGS?

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond.



Usually, but probably not always.

Off-topic, but seems a good time to mention that having your WS or FWS also posting here is quite the double-edged sword.



Well, I am completely capable of doing that, actually.

The reason I was invalidating his feelings is that I did not know that he was talking about HIS feelings. It sounded to me like he was talking about MINE, since that is the way he stated them.

Once I finally figured out that was what he was trying to do, finding a solution was not difficult at all. In fact, it was quite possibly one of the easiest and most pleasant negotiations we have had.

As I stated previously, the solution that we arrived at was that he would state his feelings using "I" messages and that I would listen/validation/empathize when he did.

Basically what the previous dynamic had been was that he would say something like, "You hate me." To which I would respond with something like, "No, I do not." Apparently, that was giving him the message that I didn't care about his feelings. He would say something like, "My feelings don't matter to you." And I would respond with, "That isn't true. Your feelings DO matter to me"...and 'round and 'round and 'round.

With our new solution, he will change "you hate me" to something like, "I feel ignored" or "I feel distance between us" or whatever applies. THAT I can respond to in the manner he seems to be seeking.



No. It isn't.


I won't speak for him. For me, I would say that I used to, yes. I won't say that I never ever slip back into that old thinking pattern, but when I do, it's more like a thought that I don't voice and I recognize it and am able to course correct pretty quickly.

Good ol' Boundaries study. It helped me a lot.

I've started delving into this a bit more, and feel better for having made some boundaries. Still have miles to go though. One thing at a time, y'know.


I remember reading about feelings and boundaries not long ago, and one of the first things that was mentioned was expressing your feeling or emotion with 'I' statments. That was a really good catch by you, and probably will save you both a lot of grief.

The more I delve into boundary study, the more I see that EVERYTHING can be reduced to a boundary issue...so it's important stuff.

It has been my experience that simply having that awareness of that line between your property and another's right up front can have a major impact on responding to something in a healthier fashion.



Oh? What's the "one thing" you're currently tackling?

I would have to say I am still working toward detaching, owning my FEELINGS and letting PWC own his. Listening to him, instead of letting my inner monologue roll it's eyes, filling in with ASSUMPTIONS.

I feel less and less hurt by his statments of his truth, of where he is, so I think Im getting there. I'm starting to realize that it's not ABOUT me (how self-centered is that notion, eh?)

One BIG boundary that I have drawn, is that I will not remain forever in a loveless marriage. It's not about making him do anything, it's about what I need. He has choices. In all honesty, I probably would have accepted less than, before now. I'm different now. I'm not looking to him to SAVE me at all. I'm looking to be healthier, and have healthier relationships.

Even my R with my son is improved. I still get a little hot tempered with him sometimes, but it's not nearly as often, and I'm learning to stop in the middle of losing it (I tend to yell at him, when it may just be necessary to walk away for a bit, then return and discipline)

Patriot and I are going to attend MB Weekend in Orlando this weekend.

Will any familiar "faces" be doing the same?

Sounds like a good weekend, plus Orlando!!

Hope it goes well for both of you! Please let us all know what you think of the weekend...

I highly recommend MB Weekend to any who are able to attend.

Even though I was already very knowledgeable regarding MB Principles, I still learned quite a bit.

So now we begin with the Home Study Course, which from my understanding consists of these folks walking you through the steps of stopping LB's, meeting EN's and becoming proficient at utilizing POJA.

Apparently they also really keep up with you regarding accountability. They claim they are going to hound us by phone and e-mail. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Glad to hear this, Frozen. I was wondering how it went for you. My DH says he'll go with me whenever I want to. I've been checking into next years schedule but haven't seen it posted yet. (Didn't check today). Did they give the 2008 dates & locations to you when you were there?

Ace

P.S. Remember the burnt lawn issues we had over the summer? It looks great now and we've hired someone to take care of the entire yard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ace,

I didn't hear anything about future dates. I do hope you will be able to attend. It was extremely informative.

Froze:

Any one point that was a revelation for either you or Patriot?

Well, I can only speak for me.

Revelation? No, I wouldn't say that, but keep in mind that I was already extremely familiar with MB Concepts.

I did gain some further understanding and explanation for why the concepts work.

And I have a much clearer understanding of how to implement POJA, which is a concept that I believe is more misunderstood than not.