WW is incredibly unhappy with current job and has been looking for a new one for the last few months now. Because of the industry she's in, it would require moving to a different city or even different state. Because she has always made more money than I, I've always left my job, come with her to that new place and found a new job, which inevitably pays much less than hers.

Last night she asked me if I didn't want her to find a new job because I'm happy with my current job. I assured her that I did want her to find a new job because she was so unhappy at her workplace. Plus, that's where she met the OM and it would be good to get away from the reminders.

But then she asked 'what if I'm not worth following?' and added that 'I don't want to ruin your life any further' by forcing me to leave the job I enjoy. I told her I didn't really know how to respond to that, which was the truth. She wanted to know if I would be upset with that or if I could deal with it. I told her I would just have to deal with it.

I know that her most important goal right now is finding a new job. I suspect that she just wants to leave everything behind (including me) because trying to fix it all is too overwhelming and painful for her. I'm not sure if maybe subconsciously she's trying to rationalize or make herself feel better by saying 'It will be better for you if I just leave'

I'm currently in Plan A so I tried hard (and I think succeeded) to avoid LBs, especially DJs. But Honesty and Openness is one of her top ENs and by not really answering her questions, I don't think I'm meeting it well. I could sure use some advice on what to do or say in this situation.

B Guy,

Women often communicate by asking hypothetical questions, which also have a basis in reality. What they are asking on the surface appears to be hypothetical, but the question is truly rooted in reality. So you are wise to worry about her thoughts behind these questions.

The problem is that you seem to be worried in the wrong direction. The likelihood is when a woman asks a pseudo-hypothetical negative question about herself, it shows fear that the question has a true basis, and should be answered in the positive.

For example, "If I wore these jeans out, and you didn't know me and saw me walking down the street, don't you think you would think my butt looked too fat?"

The underlying meaning here is, "I FEAR MY BUTT LOOKS TOO FAT IN THESE JEANS", and she wants reassurance from you that she is incorrect despite her fears.

So when she asked, "What if I'm not worth following?", the fear here is that she is not worthy. I wonder if there is recent contact with her OM, or if she has remaining guilt, or if she is just entering an awareness phase of her own misdeeds. It might be that she is awakening to what she has done, and her own self-esteem is taking some big hits.

The statement "I don't want to ruin your life any further" was actually a inquiry, not a statement. This is an indirect opening, used by women more often than men (although men do use this conversational tactic). The inquiry was to you, and she was asking you for reassurance that she has NOT ruined your entire life, and that you DO still want her in your life despite her transgressions against her.

She has many fears. This conversation with her was very indirect on her part, because she fears that what she has done has not yet been forgiven by you, and I believe she is seeing that she needs to change jobs to make things safer for your marriage. However, I also think she sees that changing jobs will mean another hit to your career, and it would be my educated guess that she does not think you will ride out both the affair and the job setback as well, and be able to forgive BOTH at the same time.

You two need to talk more directly about her fears. Try to draw her out on these, because talking about her fears will create more intimacy between the two of you. You could open the conversation by talking about perhaps a fear you have with regard to her changing jobs, and ask her about her own fears - and ask about specifically the fears she has regarding your taking "two hits at the same time - the job change and the affair", and see what she says about her fears on that topic. It might be very interesting. She may not have this insight yet, at least in those specific terms.

At least, that is what my educated guess and analysis would be.

If openness if one of her top ENs, you might just hit one out of the park.

SB

Excellent post, Schoolbus!!! I can't think of anything to add, but that post really spoke to me!

JinGA

Thank you for your lengthy reply schoolbus. It certainly brought a different perspective.

Some evidence that might go against that theory is (1) she was looking for a new job prior to my discovery of the affair (without informing me) and (2) she recently revealed that one reason she hates work is because 'everyone there thinks I'm a ******' She says now that the OM is gone from the workplace, she has no friends there.

I think that if she really cared about 'making things safer for our marriage' she wouldn't be trying to contact OM still. (just discovered in today's phone bill that an eight-minute message was left on 7/25)

Thank you for the idea of engaging her in honest conversation about her/my fears. What do I have to lose? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It still seems like she is thinking only of herself. Very much a WS' attitude. So she has a ways to go.

In such a case, is may be wise to make the move based on what is best for you and your family.

Not a good idea to let the WS' POV affect the decision because the WS is very wishy washy and you will get irriated when she blames you for her decision.

Test this out on a smaller scale.

Ex:

Ask her where she wants to go to dinner, which movie she wants to see or something where she has to make a choice. If graciously she picks one and it's ok, go with it. If she picks one and balks after you agree, then you pick and do it whether she likes it or not. See if she makes a fuss....she should lose her right to choose. Does that sound mean? It could if she were normal but if she is still displaying a WS attitude, that's the only way to handle it. Very immature indeed on her part.

JMHO,
L.

If she was looking for a job before d-day without telling you maybe it's because she figured she was guilty and you would kick her to the street???

It's not a bad thing that she has shame for what she did and believes everyone she works with knows, she probably would like to have a clean slate at work to start over with.

But, even if job changes and moving might be a positive thing for your M, you should make sure your ready for all the additional stress of relocating before jumping in. It can put your recovery work on a side burner while you are trying to sell the house, buy the house, find the schools, find new everything. Is your relationship healing enough for the move yet??

FTS

Thank you for your opinion. It gave me a refreshing, different outlook. I don't think she's afraid of me kicking her to the street because she makes the majority of our household income and thus pays the majority of our bills.

But a few things keep me from thinking that she was or is feeling guilty. First, the day after the PA she e-mailed OM that she 'really did not regret what happened.' After that, but before I discovered the A, she wrote her friend (who knew about it all) that she had 'started thinking about moving somewhere on her own and thought the easiest way to do that would be to get a new job in another town, so there would be a significant reason.' A couple weeks after D-Day, I asked her what she regretted and cheating on me was not in the list. She instead said she regretted getting married so young.

I don't think she believes anyone at work knows. It was an egotistical male co-worker that told her 'Everyone here thinks you're a ****** anyway.' She took a management position a year ago and has been unhappy in the job since then.

First, we have no kids, so that makes things a lot simpler. Second, we don't own a house, we're renting month-to-month, so that also makes things simpler.

But I would be very concerned if we had to make a decision today because she hasn't agreed to NC and isn't in R. And her comments that maybe I shouldn't go with her are troubling.

When she gets a job offer in another town, I worry that she will move there without me and that separation will make R impossible. Or would that separation force the beginning of Plan B? Has anyone else faced a situation like this?

My WW also told me various versions of the "I don't want you to have to leave your job, if I find a job elsewhere."

This was her conflict avoidance way of saying I'm leaving you. At the time I did not know there was an A. But basically, she looked for a job anywhere, as long as it wasn't near where we were. "Miraculously", she found a job in OM's city.

So you sitch may be different because she is not going somewhere to be with the OM, but based on what you've said, she is planning on leaving you and starting over. When she says you'd be better off staying where you're at, she is just telling you she doesn't want you to come with her.

IME, its practically immpossible to plan A once they leave, so yeah you eventually end up with plan B. But plan B is lot more effective if you do it on your terms.

If I had it to do over, I would not have let my WW sell me this song and dance. I would either say "nonsense Honey, where ever you go, I'm going, I'm positive I'll find a job I like just as much" or "Heck no, I'm not leaving my job. You can quit yours and find one around here if you hate yours so much."

Obviously, there are more tactful ways to say this but you get the point. She'll most likely refuse both optons. In which case, you'll know she is trying to leave town on you. If that's the case, I'd beat her to the punch with a pre-emptive plan B. Assuming you've had some time to do a plan A.

In my case, the WW was gone before I even knew about the A.

Just my 2 cents

I took WW out to lunch today and the topic came up again. I told her that I did think she was worth following and that I would want to do so. She then asked me 'But what if I don't want you to come with me?' and 'Maybe I just want to be by myself so I can figure things out on my own without this external pressure.' She told me that she had been thinking about moving out on her own for a long time prior to the A but didn't want to tell me because she was too worried about hurting my feelings and worried how I would provide for myself (since she's the breadwinner). She said she doesn't want me to hate her, and mentioned how when her Dad left her Mom the two of them hated each other for life.

She also said that even if she couldn't find a new job in another city, she might want to move out and be on her own anyway. I told her it was her choice if she wanted to do that and I would not help or assist her in doing so.

She said I probably think she's just trying to get together with OM and it's not like that because she knows that will never happen. When I asked her 'what if he calls you and says let's get together to talk' she said she would but nothing would happen. When I told her that's exactly how it happened last time, she said it wouldn't this time. When I asked why it couldn't happen again, she didn't really have an answer.

It seems like she's just trying to make me feel good about her leaving and/or get my permission, that way she can't be blamed for it. She could tell herself and everyone else 'It was a mutual agreement.' It also seems a little like cake-eating, in that she wants to still be friends with me after she leaves me. If you think I'm misreading, please let me know.

Right now there are no job offers on the table, so there isn't an imminent threat of her leaving. But what do I do if she does leave? Do I go to Plan B at that point? Give her a PBL and go dark?

BHH,

Your wife is talking fogspeak, the language of a WW still in contact with OM.

"Maybe I just want to be by myself so I can figure things out on my own..."
Translation

"I want to be free to carry out my A with OM"

If they get together to talk "Nothing woulf happen".

" I can't wait till I can get some alone time with OM so we can pick up right where we left off"

I don't know how long you've been in A, when was dday? IMO, you fight to keep her there, tell her no you want to work on your M, you love her .....

But, if you feel that you've done a good Plan A, then if she leaves, go to Plan B, don't be half a$$ about it, go very dark.

She thinks she's single and wants to behave as such.

wayward fog,

Plan A as much as you can, be ready for plan b, and be glad that you don't have any children that she is damaging.

Best wishes

FTS

D-day was 6/8 and last contact from OM to WW was 6/15. But WW has been trying to contact OM sporadically since with no apologies. See the thread Affair over for OM but not for WS for more info on that.

I LB'd heavily on 6/27 (prior to my knowledge of LBs, Plan A, etc.) and didn't truly start Plan A until maybe July 1. When I tell her that I'm going to do my best to meet her ENs, she says the damage is done and it may be too late.

I know it's way too early for Plan B right now. But I could use some advice on specifics for when that time comes. Typically it seems like the PBL asks the WS to leave the home until the requirements are met for R. But if WW leaves of her own accord, is a letter still involved? Do I give it to her before/after she leaves? Or do I tell her beforehand that if she goes I plan on NC with her? Or does that tip my hand?

My apologies for not having a signature. I'm afraid my WW will find my posts here as she did at a different site, and then I would lose this as a resource.

Let me refer you to Bugs.

She's got 2 threads on this board. One for Plan A. She did an awesome Plan A even after her H left.

She is now in Plan B Darkness has Decended, and she's doing great. Read both of these. They will be very helpful.

You can tell her that if she goes, you will have NC with her. Give her the PBL after she leaves.

She's in withdrawal, most likely. I do think there is shame there, and from what you said about how others at her work feel about her, she does care what the OM said about her. I wonder if she worries that he told other people at work about what happened between them, and she has some paranoia about the idea that other people there are talking behind her back.

They probably are. It's usually in the grapevine when this stuff goes on.

Her talk about feeling this way before d-day and the affair is fog-babble. Don't listen to her, and keep up Plan A. Somewhere they all find the same script and read off of it.

Her attempts to detach from you are also typical. But she's still at home - take advantage of it while she's there, and Plan A as much as you can.

Don't engage her in any talk of separation - tell her you talk about rebuilding marriages, not divorcing, and that you know that this can be a relationship worth having. It was once, and can be again, only better - because the tools are out there and waiting to be used.

Have you done the emotional needs questionnaire?

SB

I tend to agree. Sometimes it seems to lift but lately it seems the fog has set back in. I think it helps her keep from feeling so awful. It's hard for me to accept that such an insightful and intelligent woman could say some of the ridiculous things she's said. Withdrawal and the fog are powerful, indeed!

Agreed. I'm trying my darndest. First with the no LBs and second with the meeting of ENs. I was subconsciously doing a Plan A for a while but after not seeing any effort from her, got quite upset. Now I recognize that I should not expect any of my ENs to be met in Plan A. That realization helps me from committing LBs. Although I'm surprised at how hard Plan A can be (can't imagine how hard B must be). Usually the hardest part is figuring out how to answer fog questions.

Thanks for this tip especially. It's specifics like this that I'll need to make it through Plan A.

Thankfully, she did do this at my request. It was surprising and useful. I'm trying to refer to it daily to make sure I'm meeting her EN's, especially the top five. Honesty and openness is the toughest one because, let's face it, Plan A is partly about hiding feelings of anger, pain and hurt.

Yes, Plan A, especially at the beginning totally feels like a facade. You are holding back on most of your emotions, but with time it becomes more natural.

I remember feeling, "Yeah, everything's just hunky dorey as long as I don't bring up how you have destroyed me, our children, and our M." It's natural to think it, just reframe from saying it right now.

Know that there will be a time,later on, after she comes out of the fog that you will be able to express those things to her, but not now and not from a place of anger.

It took me a while to find Bugs because her Username is actually Bugsmom, but I have spent the last X days reading her lengthy Plan A thread and just got caught up on her Plan B thread. Wow, just wow.

I see how well she did Plan A while her husband was moved out. However, my WW is looking at taking a job that is more than 100 miles away. I don't think I could meet her needs of Affection and Recreational Companionship (2 of her Top 5) if I don't go with her. So it looks like it would force me into Plan B.

This seems like an 'exit affair' to me. Have any BH here recovered their M from such a situation? FWW posts are certainly encouraged also.

I agree, if she leaves, go into a very dark Plan B.

WW now has interest from two separate employers that are both quite far away (one in a different state). She asked me if I was worried and I told her I was happy because I know she has wanted to leave her job for a while now. Knowing that Honesty and Openness is one of her Top 5 ENs, I told her I am always a little worried when we move about finding a new job for myself. She said 'so it makes even more sense' for her to go on her own and not 'make me' come with her.

If I go into Plan B after she moves away, does that mean I skip Exposure? Both jobs are far away from OM, so I can't really tell family that she left to be with OM. Won't I just look like a complete @$$ to everyone if I go dark at that point? But if I tell family members what really happened, won't she just say that I'm being vengeful by bringing up the past unnecessarily?