Yay! I said these things!

Yes! I did that! I patted her side of the bed and asked her to come sleep here. She cannot truthfully say that I forced her out of our bedroom.

I've told her repeatedly that I'm focused on the marriage and not anything else. She has told me repeatedly that she doesn't know what she wants to do and she has a lot of decisions to make right now. So IF I had asked her what her plan for saving the marriage was, she would say she didn't think it could be saved or she doesn't know if she wants to save it.

She won't have to ask me. If someone tells WW that they know she placed a 17-minute call to OM, she'll figure out that her call history can be seen more often than once-a-month when the bill comes.

This is something that confounds me. She already knows that I look at the cell phone bill when it arrives. Thus I would see the call eventually. Yet she doesn't tell me when she calls. Does she think I won't look the next time the bill comes? That she's guilted me into feeling bad about looking? Does she just not even consider that I will inevitably find out? WTF?

She's not thinking that far ahead. WS's never do. Mine didn't, for sure.

She suspected that they might get caught..."some day". Both her and OM were shocked that I caught them "so soon". But that's what happens...they get caught up in their little fantasy world and don't think about long term consequences of ANYTHING...all they can focus on is how they feel at the moment.


The next time she rants about how you're driving her away...ask her to explain to you how doing what she's asking you to do will bring her back.

naw, she just dont care if you find out or not. She's playing the "lets cross that bridge when we get to it" routine. My H is notorious for that.

He'll do things, knowing there'll be trouble but as long as the trouble doesn't happen while he's doing it, he's content.

You make a good point. I had originally read of the concentric rings theory, where you start with the closest people and then work your way out if NC persisted. I wasn't too afraid to contact OMGF and OM because they both knew about the A. But I was hesitant to do so to OM's father because it was true exposure. I have done so now but it is still unlikely to put pressure on WW.

You all know I have been putting off exposure to WW's family for numerous reasons. However, I do plan on doing so. It's inevitable at this point, especially since she texted OM last night after she refused to sleep in our bed (this is the first TM I'm aware she's sent to OM). She has recently e-mailed her two older sisters and mentioned she's 'been going through a personal crisis all summer' and she went out to lunch with a co-worker today and wouldn't tell me where they ate. So I get the sense she may start exposing soon and I certainly want to pre-empt her spun story.

So here's the deal. WW is headed to a job interview this weekend at Location 1. We will both be going and spending the night (does she plan on sleeping in a separate bed?) After we return, WW will be flying to Location 2 for a multi-day job interview and she will not be bringing me w/her. That's right, WW will be out of the state, by herself, for 3 days. From Monday night->Thursday night. She's already told BFF that the two of them can talk freely during that time. This is when I plan to expose to her family (Father & Stepmother, 2 Older Sisters). I will have the freedom to do so without her being around. I am considering printing out all the e-mails between WW and BFF, putting them in packages and sending them to those individuals for delivery during that week. I will call each of them (prior to them getting the packages) and explain what is going on, how I'm doing this to save our marriage and that I would appreciate their help in doing so. Whaddya think?

You need to expose quickly to pre-empt her spun story. If she starts telling people that you are losing at and are starting to tell people that you think she's cheating, they aren't inclined to believe you when you expose. People are more likely to believe the story they heard first, so you need to expose (and do it over the phone so they can hear your voice so they can tell you are truthful), and you need to give them proof so they cannot deny the truth.

Called WW at workplace today to chat and she mentioned how she wasn't at work for a while because she had an appt. I asked if it was with the IC and she confirmed it was. I asked if it went okay and she said 'I dunno. You probably wouldn't think so.' I asked if she had scheduled another appt. and she said she hadn't and 'actually, that's something I need to talk to you about tonight.'

I'm obviously a little concerned about tonight's talk and would like to be prepared. But what should I be prepared for? Has anyone else been in this situation? What should I definitely not say or do?

BH:

She set up the 3 day love fest during her job interview at Location #2, with the OM during the 17 minute phone call she made Friday night

And NOW she's going to tell you.

Then she will say: "And theres nothing you can do about it."

So what are you going to do about it?

Or, her appt today was with the OM. Not her IC. Call the IC and confirm.

Or, she has seen the light. And wants to reconnect with you.

Before she leaves for the above mentioned Love fest.

Continue using what Schoolbus has been telling you about mirroring techniques. And aim for excellent Plan A time.

Remain CALM.

SHE WANTS YOU TO GET MAD. IT MAKES it easier for HER.

Remain CALM.

And then do what you gotta do.

Expose, cancel plane tickets, rescedule the interviews, search for hidden cell phones, whatever.

One note about the exposure: I would NOT send copies of the Emails between BFF and WW. Note that in your voice conversation, or in your email, what evidence that you have. 1: Conversation with OM. 2. Wifes's admissions 3. Phone Records 4. Emails. 5. Etc 6. etc. The exposure targets rarely NEED proof. You stating it is generally enough. If they need more, because they are firmly in WW camp, then decide if it is really worth giving them the info, because it will probably be misconstrued anyway.

If you expose before she leaves for Location #2, then she doesn't have any cover, cause if she call the people you exposed to, THEY will ask her uncomfortable questions. (At least we HOPE so.)

LG

Confirmed with IC that she did have a session with him today. He seemed taken aback by my call and asked if she had talked to me about taking the next step. I told him we'd be talking this evening.

Thanks for this advice, I was worried it might make me look crazed. I will see how the conversations go.

Are you referring to WW's recent conversation with OM? Or a conversation I've had with OM? Because the latter has never happened.

So, what happened?

WW said last night that the IC wanted to know if I'd be willing to come in for a joint session to discuss the idea of separation. She figured I'd be unwilling to do so because of my repeated insistence that I'm not interested in discussing that and am only willing to work on the marriage. I told her that I thought it would be a good idea to have a joint session with the Counselor, but would want to ask a number of questions.

I asked her if C was talking about a legal separation or just a 'let's agree to live apart' and she said he had termed it a 'therapeutic separation' where we would not speak to each other (hmmm, sound familiar?). I said I would be willing to discuss it if the goal was to repair the marriage, not to ease into a divorce. She said he told her he's a marriage counselor, not a divorce counselor.

She thinks it would be a great idea because she really wants to go live on her own after she gets a new job and be independent. She said she never got to experience that because we were engaged before we graduated college. She said she doesn't want to be responsible for making me move with her and trying to find a new job for myself and then me resenting her for it all.

She said she's tired of me pushing her (moving back into our bed now No. 1 on the 'pushy' list, just ahead of buying books for us to read, followed by 'browbeating' her into admitting she had an affair) and she just wants to be by herself so she can make decisions without any external influence.

She said it was the counselor's suggestion, not hers, and heavily implied that since it was an independent 3rd-party who made the suggestion, I have no basis not to agree.

I feel like this is her way of easing out of the marriage and trying to make it seem mutual. She can tell her family, 'Well, we tried, but it just didn't work out. I even saw a counselor and he gave us the advice to separate. But I'm just not in love with H anymore, so, oh well. It's for the best. And it doesn't have anything to do with the A he claims I had.'

I couldn't get to sleep last night, as I was hurt and angry and confused about what to do. I feel like she's treating me like a backup guy that will be around while she heads off and has fun with her new independent life, built from the wreckage of our M. I know she's still in the fog, but that only slightly lessens the pain of it. I was on the verge of losing it and just felt like saying 'If you don't want to be married, then get out.' She withdrew a lot from my $LB last night and I'm starting to doubt that she could possibly turn herself around to the person I love.

I desperately need some advice. If I don't agree to the counselor's separation, won't that make me look like the 'bad partner' who won't work on the marriage? Should I still Expose Monday night while she's flying out to Job Interview Location 2? Is it time for me to see a lawyer?

Update: I just got off the phone with Dr. Harley via Marriage Builders Radio and it was helpful. Listen to the rebroadcast for the guy from CA.

What did Dr. Harley advise you to do?

I would talk to IC and give him Dr. Harley's take as well as the information you have gleaned off this site. I wouldn't think that separation would help you unless it was in the context of Plan B, and I would let your IC know that.

My biggest question was whether or not I should agree to the separation. He said I probably didn't have a choice. (Which isn't really answering the question <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) He wanted to know what the counselor's goal of this was, which I won't know until we see him (earliest would be 1-1/2 weeks from now). He brought up Plan B, but recommended that I continue with Plan A until I can't possibly bear the pain anymore and am in danger of outbursts. The separation should be for me.

Both he and Joyce agreed that Exposure was good and seemed to be surprised that her family didn't know yet. He said I should inform her family that any marriage problems we have can't be properly addressed until the A is over.

After the on-air segment, he spoke with me privately off-air and asked about some more specifics. Because our marriage is only 7-1/2 years old and we have no kids, it's very likely that we'll divorce. He gave the standard 2-year timeline for the A to end.

He asked me what her complaint was before the A. Since I don't really know when it started, I don't know for certain. But I mentioned that it seemed like her major problem was that she makes more money than I do and feels responsible for all the decision-making, especially financially. He asked if OM makes more money than I do, which is YES. He thinks she may have lost respect for me because of this, but either doesn't realize it or won't admit.

Should I try and set up an individual appointment with IC prior to a joint appointment? I'm afraid that if I reveal her deceptive behavior to IC at the joint session that I'll lose those information sources for good.

I think your being manipulated by your WW. Your WW couldn't convince you that separation was a good idea, so she has manipulated the IC into trying to convince you it is a good idea. If you go to that joint session you will be beaten down until you agree that separation is a good idea.

IMHO, most therpists are pretty good. But people on these boards always advise caution when using a therpists that is not familiar with MB principles or infidelity. IMO, here's why. It is not that hard to fool a therpist for a considerable period of time. It takes time, multiple sessions for a therapist to spot when someone is B***S****** them. Plus, very few therpists are going to be confrontational in the first months of sessions. So when a WS goes to see them, the majority of the sessions are "how do you feel?" and "what do you want to do?" If you tell a therpist I'm miserable and I want to leave my spouse, most are going to agree that you should "explore" that and see what happens. The therapist has no option but to take that at face value until they learn more about the person.

The Harley's and other MB advocates are well aware that every WS says this. Through their experience they know they don't need to take that at face value, so they confront and advise against a seperation.

IMHO, your WW and the OM are still planning their getaway. Your WW has chosen one strategy to go underground with the A. The OM chose another. Most likely the OM has communicated to your wife in both subtle and not so subtle ways that he will not leave his GF for a married woman and/or he isn't going to have anything to do with her while you are in the picture. More or less he's told her that he would like to see where their relationship would go, so he can decide if he should leave his GF. But he can't do that if you keep butting in and messing everything up. He's cake eating.

Sadly, your WW is falling for it. She is desperate to feed her "addiction". In order to get her fix, she has concluded that the she needs to make it "safe" for the OM to keep seeing her. That means getting far away from you.

So she has told you, she needs space, she never had to develop her own personality, she thinks you two are co-dependent, she wants to know what it feels like to be independent, etc, etc. You didn't fall for it because you came here and saw that everyone says that. Now she has told the IC the same thing. Now that she has convinced the IC that separation is a good idea, they can convince you. Unfortunately, if you go see the IC with her, I fear you are in a lose lose situation. If you refuse to agree with the IC, you are irrational because you have not heeded the advice of a trained professional, and your WW can't deal with you if you are going to be irrational. So she will follow the advice of the trained professional and move out. If you agree with the IC, she will move out. Either way, she will move out. WS objective achieved.

Its very hard to view your WS as a cunning, manipulative person. But much like an addiction to drugs, they will try anything to get their fix. They'll try anger, they will play on your sympathy, they'll pull other people in to try and help, on and on. Virtually in every case I've seen where a WS sees an IC/MC prior to ending contact, it is not done based on any desire to change or help themselves. It is done solely as a bargaining chip.

I made this mistake. In my effort to do a good plan A, I gave "extra credit" for every time my WW had a heart to heart with me, every time she did something nice or tried to meet my EN's, every time she went to MC, etc, etc. But fundamentally, she would not give NC, moving home, giving recovery a shot. All the nice things I viewed as progress were nothing more than smoke that blurred my vision. I finally realized that my WW would agree to anything I asked of her, as long as I did not ask her to end contact, move home, and work on recovery.

Let me put it another way. If the IC had told your WW you should quit contacting the OM, quit this talk of seperation and follow these guidelines to attempt to recover your M and repair the damage. Do you think she would agree to a joint discussion with the IC for you guys to discuss this?

Now, all that said. This doesn't really change your plan much. If it were me, I would not go to this joint session with the IC. I would maybe see the IC by myself without telling the WW, just to see what they plan to say, but I doubt I would. I think you already know what they are going to say.

Plan A, then hunker down and plan B.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree with rpryne -- that was my initial gut reaction too was that you should meet with this IC FIRST, by yourself, to gauge whether or not he is pro-marriage and familiar with the WHOLE situation.

Hard to say, but the only benefit would be if you could convince the IC that separation is a bad idea. Not very likely. Even if you do that, its not very likely that the IC would convince your WW of that.


I wouldn't do it in a joint session. If you do decide to see the IC separately, then just clarify where and if privilige exists. I know when I met with SH, that he did not disclose what I had said to him to my WW.


Finally, this is not meant to be a 2x4, but this is or is awfully close to you moving one of your boundaries. Fundamentally, you have now agreed to discuss separation. Be careful.

rprynne, you hit on a very important point with your remark. This is one of the reasons that it is not recommended that a couple go into counseling when one is in an affair. The wayward does nothing but lie. Any alcoholic or addict [wayward minds] will also tell you how easy it is to fool a counselor or a doctor. Most don't know how a wayward minds works and never understand they are being fooled. This is exactly why any qualified counselor will send an alcoholic or addict to AA, because they can't be conned there.

As far as counselors being good, I don't share that opinion because of past experience and because of the dismal track record of marriage counselors. MC's have a 16% success rate and most are divorced themselves.

BHHFS, I did hear your call with Dr. Harley and am glad you got a chance to speak to him. I remember him stating several times that this seperation would be GOOD FOR YOU, but not for her because it would actually be Plan B.

He also tld you to expose the affair to her parents. Are you going to be doing that? Why have you not done that yet?

I'm wondering if she told the counselor of her affair, or if she just outlined needing independence.