FYI --
I brought my BH to one of my IC sessions so that someone else could be the one to tell him I needed out.
Because he wouldn't accept it or make it easy for me.

That is likely her agenda with having you go...

Dr Harley kept telling BHS that "a seperation will be therapeutic for YOU..." [ie: Plan B]

This is just a brainstorming thought but, why not BHHFSGuy goes to the IC with WW and says, "Before we discuss any kind of separation between BH and WW, does anyone think the more important step is to end all contact with OM? How can anything between me (BH) and WW improve as long as their is a destructive thrid party involved?"

If anyone answers that NC is not the 1st step, BHHFSGuy can reply that he respects their opinion, but he fundamentally disagrees based on his own study of the issue and this opinion is shared by noted experts in the field so he does not feel that this is an exotic or irrational stance, but with such a fundamental difference in opinion there will likely be no consensus on a sensible plan.

Your WW just made contact with OM. She is BIG TIME back in the fog. I would not go into any session that involves talking about seperation. I don't see how this helps the M at all, unless it's Plan B.

I wonder if you could tell your W you've thought about it and think a MC session would be good, but with a different counselor. Do you think she would do phone counseling with the Harleys? I really think ICs and MCs should be different people. I would NOT use this IC for a joint session.

I'm sorry your WW is being so horrible. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You definitely need to speak with the IC before you joint session so you can set the record straight. You need to tell him that your WW is using him to facilitate her separation so she can pursue OM. Continue exposing to put pressure on your WW. You should not agree to any separation unless YOU are ready for plan B. I would suggest that if you were to agree to a separation (for her), then your WW would have to have NC with OM for AT LEAST 6 months. You need to expose her first.

On a side note, my marriage was only 3 years old with no kids, and Dr. Harley didn't give my marriage much of a chance, but that was almost a year ago, and my wife and I are recovering. Your WW will be furious when you expose, but it will eventually blow over. I know my WW told me it was over, we were getting divorced and she wanted me to leave the house the day I exposed. Just 5 days later, I was cutting her off financially, cutting her out of my health and car insurance and cell phone plan, and kicking her out of the house when she finally agreed to NC.

I agree with Katie Mae and any separation should be PLAN B not some kind of fuzzy crap counselors spew. If your WW will not agree to end her affair and NC then nothing you do short of plan B is going to get her attention, imo.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but AA is group meetings. Group therapy is generally much harder to lie in because someone there will always call B***S***.

I see that dynamic everyday on these forums.


Fair enough. My track record has been better. Most I've seen have seem pretty well educated and well intentioned. As far as the success rate, I tend to view that more as the counseling being bad as opposed to the counselor being bad. I tend to think this is related to their experience or more correctly lack of experience and the attempt to counsel on too broad a number of mental health issues. i.e. people who's bread and butter is treating anxiety are more than willing to provide MC. Probably splitting hairs here, as I am known to do.

If I remember correctly, Dr. Harley came upon his concepts by realizing that he had an awful success rate at MC. It wasn't until he got very experienced and specialized that his success rate improved.

Thank you for the reminder, rprynne. I went back and read your post about how "I just don't want to see you posting in a couple a months about how your WW has moved out and you agreed to it because she said she would do this or that."

Are we all agreed, then, that I should not agree to separation under any circumstances?

Well, it depends on WHO is in the group, of course. An AA group is a collection of professional bullsh*t artists and you cant bullsh*t a bullsh*tter. But if the group consisted of counselors or milkmen or gardners, they could lie easily.

Secondly, when alcoholics DO go to counselors, the serious ones will choose a recovering alcoholic counselor because they are hard to fool. Alcoholics always choose recovering alcoholics for their sponsor for this very reason. [versus a counselor or a pastor]


It wasn't his experience that was the problem, but his training regimen that was lacking. He was experienced and he DID specialize, like many other marriage counselors. The problem was that they did not understand what made a marriage work in the first place, so MOST marriage counselors were failures, no matter how experienced or specialized. Here is what he says:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3100_how.html

and from "Meet Dr. Harley:"


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi2000_meet.html

I wouldn't say under any circumstances, but certainly not on her terms. If you do seperate, I would suggest it is ONLY because you need to go into Plan B. In Plan B, YOU would set the terms and you would be in control.

More importantly, there are major opportunities in your case that have not been exploited, such as exposure. I would do that ASAP. That is a KEY component of Plan A and while exposure may not kill an affair, it certainly hastens it death. Exposure is like chemotherapy to cancer and you cannot afford to forgo that valuable weapon. In fact, in my experience, it is the most potent weapon you have.

Yeah, that's the irony. Even though I have refused to discuss it with her and expressed my disapproval of it, I actually WANT the separation to happen because I know my Plan A energy will run out. (I did take her out to lunch today)

I was wavering a bit last night but now that I've heard from Steve & Joyce about it, I am determined to do so. As to why I haven't done it yet: see the rest of my thread regarding our upcoming timeline. I'm driving her a couple hundred miles to Job Interview Location 1 this Saturday for the weekend and it's a place we've spent a handful of vacations (some romantic). On Monday night I will drive her to the airport so she can fly out to Job Interview Location 2 for 3 days, 3 nights. It is during this time that I will call WW's various family members and my own family. That's when I will be completely free to do so. Right now I have little secret time, other than when I'm at work.

[quoteI was wavering a bit last night but now that I've heard from Steve & Joyce about it, I am determined to do so. As to why I haven't done it yet: see the rest of my thread regarding our upcoming timeline. I'm driving her a couple hundred miles to Job Interview Location 1 this Saturday for the weekend and it's a place we've spent a handful of vacations (some romantic). On Monday night I will drive her to the airport so she can fly out to Job Interview Location 2 for 3 days, 3 nights. It is during this time that I will call WW's various family members and my own family. That's when I will be completely free to do so. Right now I have little secret time, other than when I'm at work. [/quote]

Sounds like a great plan! And I heard Dr Harley even tell you what to say, did you write that down? Isn't he wonderful?!

I saw the IC first (and I certainly told him about her infidelity). She refused to talk to anyone ('what could they possibly tell me I don't already knokw?'), but her resistance lowered over time. After my third session, my IC said he was 'stuck' with me until she came in to talk. She then agreed to see him individually and had three sessions. I was originally worried that setting up another individual session with him prior to the proposed joint session would seem manipulative/controlling on my part. But he was my IC first, so I don't think any reasonable person would find fault in it.

IF I attend a joint session (I will let WW be responsible for setting that up and I think he'll be gone for a week anyway and I think I'll be really busy the week after) writing a NC letter will be my No. 1 sticking point.

Katie_Mae! It's great to see a post from you again!

I agree and that's the main question I will be asking IC: How will this help the M?

I think you answered your own question with the previous statement of "Your WW just made contact with OM. She is BIG TIME back in the fog." I think her other excuse would be the money. She wouldn't even agree to us spending a night at a getaway/spa because 'it would be a waste of money.'

This is an argument I may make.

Thanks! As much as I don't want to be pitied, it does make me feel better that folks here understand the pain of dealing with a WS. But having read a few other threads, I've seen way worse (Hello, Drac!)

I think your advice here is solid, especially that six months of NC must be completed prior to any agreement by me of separation. There's no way she'll agree to that and if she balks at a possible joint session, I think it'll look pretty bad to IC. Of course, any possible joint session we have will follow my upcoming exposure, so who knows what'll happen after that nuclear bomb drops.

This worries me because I can't really cut her off financially, but she could me. I pay for certain bills, like car insurance, phones, cable TV, Internet. But she pays the rent.

I'm prepared to expose now, but I don't think I'm prepared for the backlash of it. Can you all help me prepare for how to respond to her inevitable reaction?

Oh yes, just imagine that you have turned on the lights in the crack house and have brought in a crowd of people to watch the crack head [your WW] get high. It is no fun to get high when everyone is watching! So, she will lash out and will be furious! When she bombards you with "I was going to work it out, now I want a divorce" blah, blah, blah, blah, simply tell her that you are sure sorry she is upset but you felt you needed your family's support in your time of need. And just leave it at that. Expect all manner of threats designed to get you to SHUT UP and stop interfering in her affair. The madder she is the harder you have hit the mark.

Don't try to reason with her or justify what you have done because it will be impossible to make her happy.

But more importantly, BHHS, expose to everyone who should know at the SAME TIME. If there is anyone else, such as a pastor, her grandmother, her sister, or an OP's spouse, do this all on the SAME DAY and get it over with at the same time. If you are going to piss her off, get your money's worth. And if there are MORE people who should know, you want to tell them at the same time so there is a tsunami effect.

So, when she erupts in RAGE at you, just remember this: your job as her husband is to save your marriage, NOT to appease your wife at all costs. Just keep remembering this. Your marriage can survive some temporary anger, it cannot survive an ongoing affair. Be STRONG and don't allow her anger to scare you!

1. Who's name is on the rent? You can also stick it to her financially if you file for legal separation and request spousal support. I'm sure that would be a big slap of reality.

2. There is no preparation for the fallout of exposure. I would get on antidepressant meds and learn how to tune her out and not get provoked. The fury will only last a couple weeks tops. Just get through it and once the anger is all vented, things will be the same as before only her affair and entitlement will be dealt a crippling blow.

For the most part, yes. But, If she starts to get violent or something, that's a different story.

It most likely won't be a matter of you agreeing. There is a slim chance that you can avoid the separation, but not because of anything specific you can do.

I'd keep repeating, I'm not interested in separation. Most likely she will give up trying to get you to agree to it.

At this point she will likely do 1 of 2 general approaches. The first is to say she knows you don't agree, but she's going to do it. If she does this, she will try to lay down some ground rules for how you guys will keep in touch, handle the bills, etc. The second is to just up and disappear on you.

While you continue to plan A, you need to start preparing for how handle either of these scenarios.

Put her IC in touch with your MC (SH).

Ask SH to explain the reasons behind your actions right now, and what the ultimate goal is. Tell them that you'd like the BOTH of THEM to work out a gameplan that can salvage your marriage. If this 'seperation' will help your marriage, you'd like to see how.