After reading all her emails, I really think that she would crumble quickly if you went to plan B. If you found out she was going to meet up with OM again, I would let her know you aren't going to tolerate that level of disrespect, and then if she sees OM anyway, BOOM, plan B her sorry butt. When she doesn't have you OR OM, I think the fog might start to clear.

No need to tip her off. Let her go and hang her own ways. Not her just her ways.

You will have your support group and your radar up. If you suspect anything that breaks your personal and M boundaries...then execute plan B withOUT a warning. No warning.

If she accuses you of invading her privacy, don't say yes or no. Instead throw back a question.... should I? Why should I, what have U done, WS? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (That's called reverse babble and you may have to practice it a bit...... otherwise you could flub it up or laugh hysterically when you s/b pretending t/b serious.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> She will get angry. Know this and don't let that intimadate you. She may then threaten to leave, let her. Then call all your supporters so they are aware she is in a rampage and will know NOT to support the WS.

Remember this is war. You don't play by the rules of being nice. You are fighting for your boundary survival. This is NOT to be taken lightly so don't use it as a tool, use it as a protective action for you and your family.

L.

Whoa, let's not all rush into Plan B before it's time! I can see how some of you would see this e-mail as so hurtful and disrespectful that I'd want to just flip out. But I'm actually relieved because now I will feel no guilt for Exposure and eventual Plan B. Also, I've only been truly engaged in Plan A since about July 12. I don't think most of you would consider that long enough, do you?

Also, she will take one of these two jobs and start making plans to move out. That's only a few weeks from now, so I want to make sure I fill them with a great Plan A.

Ah, but it's not actually blatant because she doesn't know I'm aware of all this. She's hiding it all (somewhat poorly). I certainly don't want her to think I'm treating her nice despite the disrespect.


Exposure to family will hopefully begin that.

I've been thinking about that and I'm not so sure. Remember that she has a lot in common with Sue from SAA. And Sue did not come out of the fog so quickly. She was too stubborn and I think my WW is too. She gets it from the Irish blood on her father's side (Her father has never admitted to being wrong about anything).

Of course, the story of Sue & Jon in SAA is depressing and scary to me for a couple of reasons. Sue gets a court order to kick Jon out of their house and when she finally comes crawling back to Jon (i.e. inviting him back home), she doesn't express remorse and acts like she's doing him a big favor. I don't know that I could reconcile without true remorse.

The longer you wait, the more you will be seen as an enabler. Whether she knows you know or not is not the primary issue. The fact that you allow her to practice her vice of choice makes you an accomplice to this A.

Is your mind and heart in sync? R U done with plan A. What do you think plan B is about? Asking to make sure we are all on the right page when we discuss plan B.

L.

BHHS:

I SO WOULD have LOVED to get an Email like that from my OW.

It would have been all I needed to restart the A. After 12 weeks. Yes. I was vunerable.

I never sent one like that and OW never did either.

But there was a point, and it was about 10 weeks out after Dday.

I remember looking to my BS and telling her "I was really pissed at OW, that she hadn't done much to get in touch with me. SHE WAS SO IN LOVE" And she was gone. POOF.

Why am I telling you this?

Because it is a sign that her fog is starting to clear. W is starting to fight her way thru.

She is al the ways there yet. And if OM remains silent, then the W will continue to battle her way back.

She will really begin to hate her OM. Get ready to listen to some awful stuff from her about how great OM is. Please just comfort her. Sounds very difficult todo, but you need to. Just listen.

OM can help you here by remaining silent.

LG

BHHF,


Whoa...This is not something the forum brought up first....Dr. Harley brought up Plan B (I just happen to agree with him) I also agree that if you can avoid LBing, you could stay in Plan A a little longer...but you need to get ready for Plan B because it takes planning. Let me requote from your transcript:

first this:

[color:" red"]

Me: Yeah, she has not agreed to that at all.

Joyce: So her asking for a separation, Bill, is really not too much of a surprise if she's still in touch with him.

Dr. Bill Harley: Yeah, as a matter of fact, to some extent, at some point in time, you have to think about Plan B, which would be separating from your wife, where you don't see or talk to her, have no contact with her. [/color]

then this:

[color:"red"]Me: So should I agree to the separation then?

Bill: I don't think you have a choice. What I would say is this: If you feel you have the emotional stamina to hold out and you do your best to be as kind and considerate and gentle and caring a husband as you can be, you're probably better off with Plan A. But if you're getting to a point where you're getting really irritated with her and you're getting very tempted to read her the riot act, then I'd go to Plan B. Because that's the worst thing you could possibly do, is to be inconsiderate of her.

Joyce: And then Plan B, he would say 'Now I'm going to do an official separation and I'm never going to see/talk with you.'

Bill: Yeah, and I would put it in a very caring way. I would say 'This is a tragedy, I can't imagine how this could've happened, I'm so sorry that this has happened to us, and you'll have to forgive me but I won't be able to see you or talk to you until you're over this relationship.'
[/color]


If you've done a good job, had multiple d-days, and she's planning to separate, she has reckless disregard for your feelings....yep, I sure do.


I agree one hundred percent. If she's moving out only a few weeks from now....hang on...don't LB....do a STERLING Plan A. But if she moves out, your ability to do a good Plan A will be practically non-existent. I would rather see you in Plan B at that point.


Well, there are other meanings besides "without concealment". Here are some synonyms you'll also find for blatant: arrant, shameless, flagrant, overt, unmitigated, unbounded. Her shameless pursuit of this guy is unbounded. You've done two parts of Plan A....the carrot parts. You're getting ready to do the third....exposure...the stick part. But there is one more... "confronting"...Tell her what you know, how it harms you. Tell her it's intolerable and you won't be disrespected that way.

If she's as hard-headed as Sue....then I agree with the good doctor....you need to get your Plan B game ready....

das all I have to say about that.

Ah, yes, there's a difference been implementing Plan B and getting prepared for implementing Plan B. I got the impression that some of you wanted me to implement right away.

Can you define/explain "multiple d-days"? AFAIK, I've only had one.

Yes, I think we're all agreed that it will not be possible for me to do a good Plan A after we separate. Personally, I don't think I'd be able to handle it, either. So what I would like to know is how best to begin a Plan B. In SAA, Jon helps Sue pack up and leave. Is that the example I should follow? Then send her the PBL afterward? I know the generalities of implementing Plan B, but not the nitty-gritty specifics.


I'm pretty certain it'll all come out after Exposure. If telling OMGF and moving back into our bed both had big impacts, I'm sure this'll be a doozy. I'm expecting she'll have some questions for me like 'How could you/Why did you do this to me?'

Yes, please help me out with details. Should I try and see a lawyer this week while she's away? Have an LSA drafted and ready to go? If, in fact, she does 'leave' after Exposure (and I won't argue it), what are the next steps I should take or be prepared to take? I can't get the locks changed, right?

If she moves out, you can change the locks. Actually, you can change the locks now, but she can get back in with a court order. Because you don't have much property (not a house) and no kids, I don't think that kicking her out and changing the locks won't hurt you legally. That stunt may get you kicked out of the apartment if she files, but again, I don't think that is a bad thing as you would be ready for plan B anyway.

I think if I were you, I would just starve this affair to death. Don't let her contact OM. Does she have his number stored in her phone? Delete it, and get rid of any traces of it (cell phone bill, address book, etc). Block his email address on her personal email. If she finds out you did it, make sure you have a keylogger to be able to get her new password or email account if she tries it. If she moves, don't allow her to get a residence without you. Afterall, you are her husband and any residence of hers you should be allowed access to. Just ride this out, not allowing yourself to be walked on, but not allowing contact to be had. If she makes contact, call her out on it, and expose it. Keep up with plan A. Eventually she will start showing SOME improvement after 4-6 months after NC, if not, plan B her behind. I think this is your safest bet to save your marriage if you can keep plan Aing despite your WW's disrespect.

Just to some up my story, my WW agreed to NC on 11/8. She made contact five more times in the next 3 months, each time I caught her and told her it was not acceptable to which she would spew venom. She wanted her fix, but didn't want to get caught. Eventually she gave up and about 4 months of plan A later, she decided to commit to the marriage again. She still isn't a 100%, but we are slowly getting better. Just lovingly detach and don't put up with her crap, but try and meet her needs. Conversation and admiration (done subtley) are good ways to start with a wayward wife. Just think of what she is interested in, start a discussion about it, and really listen and repeat what she has to say. This will be your quickest and easiest way to reconnect. Also seem genuinely appreciative of things she does do for you, compliment her on new clothes, haircut, and really congradulate her on her new job when she gets it.

Don't go along with the IC's recommendation for a split because you don't think it will help you recover your marriage and that is your goal. Tell him that you think it may make things easier on the two of you individually, but it will also make a split up easier and opposite sex relationships easier as well. You aren't prepared to take that risk to your marriage.

BHHF,

Ah, yes, there's a difference been implementing Plan B and getting prepared for implementing Plan B. I got the impression that some of you wanted me to implement right away.

No, not yet. You have to finish Plan A first. You have to see how she'll respond to exposure. I tend to believe you about how she'll likely respond....but I've seen some unexpected awakenings at that point too.

Can you define/explain "multiple d-days"? AFAIK, I've only had one.

Well, maybe I'm reading this wrong....but I thought you had your d-day, no contact was supposedly established....and then you discovered that your wife was emailing him...right? Everytime you discover that there's renewed contact....even one sided contact....that's a new "discovery-day"....another anniversary of pain....ugh.

Yes, I think we're all agreed that it will not be possible for me to do a good Plan A after we separate. Personally, I don't think I'd be able to handle it, either. So what I would like to know is how best to begin a Plan B. In SAA, Jon helps Sue pack up and leave. Is that the example I should follow? Then send her the PBL afterward? I know the generalities of implementing Plan B, but not the nitty-gritty specifics.

There is no set standard, because each marriage is so different. For instance, you don't have children....so you won't need to address custody concerns. I'll share the things I've seen people do for preparation.

Plan A: Finish all the parts and still try your best to leave a good impression on your wife. Even though it will be unlikely to pierce her foggy brain right now....later on when she misses you....she needs something to miss. It will be her lighthouse back to the marriage. Don't LB. Don't lose your calm and direction.

Protect yourself financially: It's a good thing to at least consult an attorney about how to secure your finances. Not all states have legal separation, so look into that if you need it. If don't have alot of debt, you're both working, and you don't have children....this part may not be as complicated as it is for some. If all your money is in joint accounts, you may want to separate half of the money before things get sticky or it just disappears. You may be able to change the locks after she moves out, but consult your attorney.

Letter: Start writing your Plan B letter. Post it here and get feedback from people to eliminate lovebusters. We'll give you some sample letters....or you can use the one in SAA.

Don't enable the affair: I know in the book Jon does help Sue move, but I think it's a mistake to "help" the WS move, or to finance any part of her desertion. Don't pressure or prevent her from leaving, don't cry, beg or lovebust....but don't help her leave either.

An intermediary: The most important thing about a Plan B...is that you have no direct contact at all. Even emails can do alot of damage or fill some needs. Its much better to have a third party who acts as an intermediary so that you two can't continue to fight and withdraw love units. This can be a friend, pastor, relative or attorney. Plan B is supposed to preserve the love left....that won't happen if either of you are still leaving nasty phone messages or sending poison pen letters to each other. It also won't happen if you're being sweet and just talking to her now and then. If you do....she'll just get that little "fix" and stay foggy.

Don't do it alone: Get your support group together. If you can afford really good guidance....please call the Harleys. The folks here are a good resource, but you also need the help of your friends and family. Don't withdraw....reach out. If you're depressed....go to the doctor and get some ADs. Get out of the house. Add some hobbies, activities etc. that keep you healthy, spawn creativity and feed your spirit. There will be a big hole in your life....anticipate that right now and prepare to embark on some new things to keep you busy.

Guard your health: Sleep, diet and exercise are vital to your emotional as well as physical well being. If you let it....Plan B can be a very peaceful time where you're protected from the chaos and madness of the WS. Use it to rejuvenate.

I'll add some as I think of them....and I'm sure others will too.

I'm pretty certain it'll all come out after Exposure. If telling OMGF and moving back into our bed both had big impacts, I'm sure this'll be a doozy. I'm expecting she'll have some questions for me like 'How could you/Why did you do this to me?'

So, what will your answer be? Read Orchid's babble-back stuff and think out in anticipation. Ask the folks here to give you some ideas about how to respond to this....most of us have had to.

Yes, please help me out with details.

Hope some of that stuff helped.

While WW was getting packed for her flight this afternoon, I asked if she'd left me information on where she'd be staying. 'No. Should I?' Told her it'd be nice to know. She went to the office to write down information from her e-mail printout. I told her she could just make a copy of that sheet (we have a multifunction printer) and she said she'd rather not: 'I've used enough paper.' After she was finished, she noted she'd never given me her hotel location for previous trips, so why did I want it now? I told her it would just make me feel better. She became very hostile: 'Oh, is that what this is about? Great, now I'm going to be in a state for my interview, be pre-occupied. Thanks for making this the last thing to talk about. Why'd you have to bring that up?' I reminded her that she had asked me 'why' and I just wanted to share my honest feelings with her. 'Well, now you've got me really upset.' I told her I was sorry she felt that way and asked her why. 'I don't know, I just do. Does there have to be a specific reason?' After I used the restroom, I confirmed that it was time to go. 'Oh, are you still driving me? I figured you were mad and wouldn't now. You don't have to.' I assured her I did and when we got to the airport and she was headed off to the security line I tried to give her all my best wishes and admiration. She said she was sorry she wasted my time driving her an hour there just to head straight back.

And now that I'm back, I've called WW's parents and two sisters and no one has answered. (sigh) I left messages for them all to call me back when they could and am now just patiently waiting. I guess they're all out enjoying Labor Day.

WW's older sister (married, 2 kids) called me back and I explained the situation (I will now refer to her as SIL1, and her twin as SIL2). She was very understanding and expressed her sympathies to me. She was unsure of how to approach WW about this and worried about upsetting WW. I told her that I likened it to an intervention and there was probably no way it won't upset WW and that was just the reality of the situation. I focused on the fact that WW needs to end all contact with the OM before anything good can happen.

SIL1 asked if BFF knew and I explained that sordid story. She was horrified by it, which made me feel better knowing that I'm not insane.

SIL1 doesn't quite know what to make of all this and that it seems so crazy. She will be talking with the other members of the family later this week after I've talked with them. Now hopefully those family members will call back soon! I'm pacing over here!

Hi BHHFSGuy,

Sounds like you've started on a good path for exposure...

I know this is hard, but just relax and try not to worry about what's going on right now. You've taken the right step, so that's a good thing. What you don't want to do is start doing the "What If" thinking...

You can only control yourself and your actions, and right now, you've done what needed to be done. So relax, pat yourself of the back and don't sit an stew about "how this exposure" is going to work out... it will work out. If you need to occupy your mind, then try thinking about other people that you can expose to...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Maybe I wrote it wrong. NC was never established. From D-Day on, WW insisted that 'I'm still going to be friends with him,' 'I need to get closure,' etc. She never agreed to NC. At first I didn't think I needed to because I knew it was one-sided, he left her workplace, returned to the other city with GF and didn't contact her anymore. But after a few weeks, I realized that wasn't good enough and her refusal of NC was impeding everything. I've stated my request a few times, but 'I don't think I can' is the general response.

If renewed contact counts, then I guess I have had multiple d-days.

SIL2 (single) called me back and the conversation was pretty similar to SIL1 (not too surprising since they're twin sisters). Generally SIL2 did not have a lot to say and apologized for that, noting that it was a lot to take in and she was just kind of shocked by it all. She was intrigued by WW's recent e-mail correspondence that cryptically alluded to a 'personal crisis' and thanked me for revealing the truth of the situation. She was also appalled by behavior of BFF (who the family knows).

I felt a little weird saying that I am working on saving our marriage while knowing that I will likely separate from her. But I tried to keep the focus on how WW needs to have NC with OM in order for anything good to happen. And that will, in fact, be the reason for Plan B.

SIL2 is far less likely than SIL1 to confront, but will confer with SIL1 tomorrow. I requested that no one contact WW until at least Thursday evening so as not to upset her job interview. The key people left are Father & Stepmother, so hopefully they'll give me a call back tomorrow. Since WW is completely gone for a few days, it makes this a little easier to accomplish.

Ok so now the exposure is underway. What will you be doing next? Have you identified your personal and M boundaries? What reading are you doing?

L.

Okay, a sh!tstorm is about to descend upon you and you need to know how to deal with it. Just lovingly detach and refuse to get drug into a fight. Key phrases to disarm the situation are, "I did what I thought I needed to do to save the marriage," and, "I'm sorry you feel that way." Do not apologize for your actions and walk away from any venom spewfest.

If you haven't done so...print out a copy of all of her emails to and in reference of OM. Keep them in a safe place where she can't get access to them.

Jim is right about the firestorm that's about to kick off when your WW is contacted by her family. When she calls you out about it, simply tell her that the truth about why you contacted them.

That you love her, you want to rebuild your marriage, but you know that ANY contact with OM will remain a threat to that possibility. You've asked them to help her work things out...you didn't do it to hurt her, but to help her, and your marriage.

She'll still go ballistic...be a duck, and let it roll off your back. Do NOT get into a fight with her about it.

Remember...the louder she gets, the quieter you get. Take a LONG pause before you respond to anything she says...don't just jump back at her. Pause, think about what she said, and respond...QUIETLY.

It's not the end of the world that she'll claim it is...that's all part of the script.

BHHSFGuy..........Your wife is hiding something............I travel quite a bit, and I ALWAYS print out my itinerary for my wife.......flight plans, hotel, even rental car information. Its not big deal if you love someone and have nothing to hide.

WW's stepmother (SMIL?) called me back Tuesday morning and I talked with her during our respective lunch break. As with the SILs, she was both shocked and very sympathetic. What was different was that she had a lot more questions. She's the first to ask me how I knew for sure. She also asked if there were marital problems prior to the affair. I told her that I can certainly see things in hindsight but was pretty much oblivious at the time.

WW told me that SMIL's XH cheated on her, and I think this gave her some insight. She said I should not consider the OM a homewrecker, per se, because if it wasn't him it would've just been someone else.

She asked me if WW took another job elsewhere would I follow or not and I told her that WW doesn't want me to go with her, so I really wouldn't have a choice. She thought maybe a separation would be a good idea but I didn't want to get into Plan A/Plan B with her. She asked if WW wants a D and I noted that WW had never actually used that word.

Based on the phone calls, SMIL wonders if WW wants to get caught and wants me to get mad at her and kick her out/divorce her.

SMIL feels that WW thinks the world of FIL and that he will surely want to talk with her after she gets back from her trip. So I felt pretty good about exposure after that conversation. But then I talked with FIL later that evening...

FIL (who got a divorce when WW was young) said they were all very sad about what was going on. He had some advice for me, which was to keep my dignity in all of this; that WW would not respond well to supplication. He feels that WW is very much like himself and will take some time to make a decision but then never look back.

I used the exact words that Dr. Harley provided but FIL feels that OM is just a symptom of a problem, not the root of it, and we need to attack the root of the problem, which is that she's unhappy in the marriage. But if she's not willing to do that, then it won't work.

He also felt my spying is not a good idea and won't help anything. He doesn't really want to intervene in the situation because it's between the two of us and we're both mature adults who can figure things out for ourselves. They all don't really know what's been going on because of our distance, so they can't truly help. He said he wanted to talk to WW, but doesn't want to spring it on her because he knows she'll be upset. He wants me to tell her that I've told them all first.

He told me he always considered me a great son-in-law and he was very happy when WW and I got married because I worshipped the ground she walked on and what more could a father want. He repeated that I need to keep my dignity. I think he feels like I am being too desperate and maybe trying too hard to salvage something that can't be salvaged.

I was very disappointed when it was all said and done because of his laissez-faire attitude, yet not really surprised because this is how he's always been with the family. I also know that he has underestimated the power of her infatuation with OM and what it's done to her.

I was in an agitated state for the rest of the evening and could not stop thinking about it all. It just seems even more inevitable now that we will divorce; that WW is just like FIL and will simply say 'oh well, that's just the way things worked out.'

I talked to WW later that evening and asked her how the job tryout was going. She was very talkative and shared a lot of information, so I feel like I was meeting her No. 1 EN of Conversation. I know that she's completely focused on the job tryout because she sent an e-mail to BFF prior to leaving that asked that she not call until Wednesday night because she didn't want to be distracted by other thoughts. She did ask me if I was worried and I told her 'not really,' which was true because I'm no longer worried about whether she gets another job or not or where because I won't be going with her.

I was so drained of energy from the calls that I couldn't finish this post in the evening and went to bed quite early feeling the worst I've felt in a few months. Writing this has not made me feel much better and I don't know if I can make it through work today.