I recorded the on-air portion when it was rebroadcast and my written transcript is below, for those that are interested. It was immensely helpful to me, especially in regards to being confident about Exposure to WW's family.

[color:"red"]Joyce Harley: We're glad you called, but I'm sorry for the reason. I'm reading here that your wife had an affair and wants to separate, is that correct?

Me: That's correct, yeah.

Joyce: OK, is she seeing the lover still?

Me: Well, physically not seeing him, no. He was her co-worker and he left her workplace. He lives about an hour away from her. She hasn't seen him/he hasn't seen her since. She's been trying to call him off and on about every two weeks and just last week they had a 17-minute conversation.

Joyce: So they're still in touch, in other words. They're not using the policy where Dr. Harley says to never see or talk with the lover again.

Me: Yeah, she has not agreed to that at all.

Joyce: So her asking for a separation, Bill, is really not too much of a surprise if she's still in touch with him.

Dr. Bill Harley: Yeah, as a matter of fact, to some extent, at some point in time, you have to think about Plan B, which would be separating from your wife, where you don't see or talk to her, have no contact with her. The question that I have is what is your counselor's plan? What's the ultimate outcome?

Joyce: You have individual counselors, do you?

Me: I don't know what his plan is because I haven't talked to him about that. I had three sessions with him. At the time, my wife refused to see a counselor. She said 'What could a counselor possibly offer that I don't already know?' After my third session, my counselor said he was stuck and didn't know what to do unless my wife came in to talk to him. So she agreed to do that and had three sessions with him. Her third session just happened and said 'He wants to know if you'll come in and we'll have a joint session so we can talk about the possibility of a therapeutic separation.'

Bill: Yeah, right. The thing that worries me is: how does he believe that this is going to be therapeutic? See, I would view it as therapeutic for YOU, i.e. having nothing to do with her at all until she comes to her senses. It's therapeutic for YOU. What a separation does, of course, is it makes it more likely that she will continue in her relationship with this other man; that she will probably file for divorce; the affair will run its course, eventually die a natural death. Do you have a copy of SAA?

Me: Yeah, I've read it a few times and have been trying to implement Plan A for the last couple of months.

Bill: She fits the description I have of Sue, in my reference couple at the beginning of the book.

Me: Yeah, I had her read it because I was like 'This is us. You're Sue.' And she was like 'Well, I don't see how this book applies to us because it doesn't have anything to do with us. It doesn't fit our situation at all.'

Bill: Right. And it does. She's in the fog. What it has to do with her situation is that, like Sue, she couldn't see the forest for the trees. So she ends up being so much in love with the other guy that she can't really think rationally about the future of your relationship.

Me: She's gonna tell the counselor that it doesn't have anything to do with OM because her new location where she would be going is further away from him than where we currently are.

Bill: Yep. And that's meaningless because she can get together with him as often as she wants regardless of where she's gonna move to. So all I can tell you right now is that maybe Plan B is the only thing for you to consider, especially if she really is stuck in this relationship and is not considering you at all. She's had the information, she's had the chance to read SAA, it doesn't impress her. This is not unusual. Sue, herself, had plenty of opportunity to talk with me about the A that she was having. It didn't impress her. Nothing I said impressed her. But eventually the A died a natural death and she ended up getting back together with her husband. That's really what happened.

Me: So should I agree to the separation then?

Bill: I don't think you have a choice. What I would say is this: If you feel you have the emotional stamina to hold out and you do your best to be as kind and considerate and gentle and caring a husband as you can be, you're probably better off with Plan A. But if you're getting to a point where you're getting really irritated with her and you're getting very tempted to read her the riot act, then I'd go to Plan B. Because that's the worst thing you could possibly do, is to be inconsiderate of her.

Joyce: And then Plan B, he would say 'Now I'm going to do an official separation and I'm never going to see/talk with you.'

Bill: Yeah, and I would put it in a very caring way. I would say 'This is a tragedy, I can't imagine how this could've happened, I'm so sorry that this has happened to us, and you'll have to forgive me but I won't be able to see you or talk to you until you're over this relationship.'

Joyce: Do you have any children?

Me: No children

Joyce: OK, so you don't have to worry about custody of the kids during the separation or anything like that.

Bill: I'd give it two years, and during those two years try to stay away from other women and try to entertain yourself as best you can with things that wouldn't offend your wife and sooner or later this other relationship will dry up.

Joyce: So I hope you have a support system. Do you?

Me: I have some people that I've talked to. I've been really thankful for your message boards because the folks on there have been giving me advice and helping me through this. I'm kind of at the point where I feel like it's time to expose to her family and I'm, y'know, really leery about doing so.

Joyce: OK, let's talk about that. Because we are very much in favor of having everything out in the open regarding infidelity. And they don't know that this is going on? Her family?

Me: Right, they don't know. She's vaguely mentioned 'I'm going through a personal crisis right now.'

Joyce: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Me: And I feel like basically she's going to use this advice from the counselor to do exactly what she wants, which is to leave, be single, and then say 'Well, our counselor told us it was the best way.'

Joyce: Her family needs to know that there is an affair going on.

Bill: The thing I would do, though, in describing this to her family is to say that this is a tragedy. And while there are probably issues in our marriage that need to be addressed; because of her affair, I don't believe that she's able to look at those issues rationally. And that is, in fact, the truth. That's the problem, that no matter what issue you raise... She'll tell you 'Here are the problems' she's been having with you. It won't make any difference how you try to solve these problems. You can solve them in a most spectacular way but wouldn't make a bit of difference because her way of thinking right now is she wants this other guy more than life itself. And so she's using these problems as an excuse. At the same time, you don't want to overplay that point with her parents. You just want to mention the fact that right now we just really haven't been able to get anywhere with the issues that have come up since she's decided to have an affair. [/color]

Obviously this transcript can't convey their inflection and tone, but I hope it can be useful to to others as it has been for me.

Good job typing all that!

I would take that transcript and set up a meeting with your IC to discuss what you want before he meets the two of you.

I have an individual meeting set up with IC on the afternoon of Thursday, Sept. 6. WW will still be at Job Interview Location 2 at that time, flying back later that evening. I'll then get to pick her up. I'm curious how that hour-long drive will go, since it'll be the first time we'll see each other post-Exposure...

I'll probably take the recording to the session rather than the transcript (or both, considering the audio quality from my cell phone is poor). I will also bring my copy of SAA to note the similarities to the case of Sue and Jon.

I went back and re-read some portions and was blown away by the fact that the chapter sections are begun with exact quotes from my WW:

• Stay Out of My Private Life
• I'm Disappointed You Don't Trust Me
• We're Just Friends
• I Just Need Some Time Away to Think Things Through

The righteous indignation that Dr. Harley describes is exactly what my WW has been demonstrating.

BHHFSGuy,

I also asked for a seperation from H. I had just ended things with OM for the third time, and I asked H to go to the first MC with me because I "didn't know what I wanted" (H did not know about the A.) During counseling I was very foggy and kept insisting we seperate. MC wouldn't agree, and convinced me to see an IC instead. It wasn't too long after that we ended MC and I resumed my A with OM.

As you can see, all WW act alike... just as you describe from Harley's book. It's absolutely uncanny.

Kudos to you for meeting with IC first, and exposing. You are absolutely doing the right thing.

I'm sorry I haven't been posting much. I work in an elementary school and we started up again last week. I'm very busy and put a lot of emotional energy into my work, so when I come home I have little energy left but for my sweet H!

Well, if there was ANY doubt left, it's gone now. I just discovered that WW sent an e-mail to OM 3 hours ago. Have at it!

[color:"orange"]Subject: 11 weeks

It has been that long since we last saw one another. And I really need
to understand why you are keeping things this way.

I know it's not a matter of you being too busy. I keep hearing things
about what you're up to and who you're talking to and how your job is
going, including the day you designed your first A1 completely on your
own. And it really hurts to hear those things, because it lets me know
you're making an effort to share all that with people and
intentionally shutting me out. Because I'm probably the one who wants
to know that stuff most of all, and I think you are well aware of
that.

But despite that, I kept quite a bit of distance for the past three
months because you said you needed it with everything going on in your
life. I've had your e-mail address since the first week you were gone,
but I've only started using it in the past few days. But I have the
feeling you haven't been using the time to reflect on anything, you
just used it to escape the responsibility of facing difficult issues
and being honest about them. I've had this image of you enjoying life
with your new job and everyone loving you and having no worries
because you got away with everything. Meanwhile, I've been in this
nightmare where I was feeling like I was being blamed, punished and
humiliated by everyone and having to go into a job that I hate every
day and where I feel utterly alone now. I survived the summer, but
barely.

So I'm starting to push a little harder now because I'm getting the
feeling that my time here is running out, and I refuse to move away
without a resolution. I need to understand what's been going on, what
is on your mind and why you think I deserve to be treated like this.
And you need to finally deal with everything.

You were my best friend here at work, and you told me that I was to
you. And I think I've said this a million times now, but I genuinely
want to continue being friends with you, and that has been the most
important thing to me this entire time. I really just want to put all
this behind us. You said that time heals all wounds, and I've realized
that you're right.

I have to go on my trip now and focus on doing well on my job tryout,
so I guess you get another break from me. But please think about
following through on the promises you made to have that lunch and to
have a talk with me. I can tell you from experience that it would do
you some good. And you can contact me anytime -- day or night, phone,
e-mail, mail, text message, whatever. I won't hold my breath, but I'll
hope you have some compassion for my situation and stop leaving me
hanging like this.

Take care.
-WW[/color]

And in about 8 hours I'm going to drive us both to Job Interview Location 1 where we will spend the night in a nice hotel... Plan A, Plan A, Exposure, Plan A

Well you are not the OM but you also don't have to leave her hanging.... just leave her. Let her realize you aren't the chump who w/b around her while she pines as a Ws.

Let her be stranded. As she has stranded you.

L.

BHH,

I don't think I have ever posted to you, but I have been following your thread.

First, I am truly sorry that you have to be here, but am glad you are getting some great advice here! I KNOW how hard it is. I worked very, very hard at Plan A myself. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, but I am glad that I did it.

I was particularly captured by this that your WW said,

.

Did you really read that part? I know you did, because when I was in your shoes, I would have memorized this entire email completely! But think about this part in particular.

WW is FEELING THE PAIN of her actions, but ONLY enough to cast herself in the role of the "victim". The fog is still very, very thick, but some pain is good. We can only hope that it turns into the right kind of motivational pain in the near future.

This also slays me - -



OMG! It's as if she thinks what SHE is going thru equates to what she has done to YOU! Poor WW! She's made her horrible choices, but gosh darn it, its' just not her poor little ol' fault. SHE doesn't deserve to be treated like this? PUHLEEEZE! OM needs to finally deal with everything? That is pure projection on her part. SHE is the one that needs to deal with it and she is sure not ready to do that.

I didn't copy the quote, but she said something about having a lunch and "talking it all out" as something she Knew from Experience would be good for him?? Wow! She's pulling out all of the stops here to AVOID taking the responsibility.

I am pointing these things out not to hurt you, but to help you be aware of the alien thinking you are dealing with right now. It's not to say that your DW won't emerge from the fog, but for right now she is still TOTALLY the WW. Totally trying to play the vicitm here. Just keep that in the back of your mind.

KNOW that right now, no matter how much you give, she is deep in your WW fog, so do not expect to get anything positive back from her right now. THAT is the hardest part of Plan A. Being the best H you know how and giving with NO expecation of anything in return.

It helped me a great deal to be reminded of that during my Plan A, so as not to allow the anger to get in the way of my Plan A activities.

Will be thining of you on your trip and hoping for some Great Plan A interactions for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sounds like something OMGF should know about. Have her block out your WW's email address. At this point, I might call OM, and tell him you don't care if your WW tries to guilt him, he should respect your marriage and any further contact will be reported to the appropriate people. Tell him your WW will get over it after a few months.

On a side note, I think it's funny that your WW thought she was his best friend. Duh, he made you feel that way just so he could get in your pants.

I think that your OM is over your WW, but sometimes feels guilted into maitaining some bit of friendship. You need to make him feel MORE guilty for maitaining that friendship.

I forgot to note that this e-mail was sent to his workplace address (the new place he works at now, not the old workplace where WW is still at). Do I have any basis for calling his workplace? Especially since it seems he still hasn't initiated any contact?

I haven't heard from OM, OMGF or OM's father after my last exposure messages were left. Their silence is distressing.

I'm undecided about whether or not they were really friends first. Shirley Glass notes that these things can start with real friendship and then cross the line. But based on the e-mails I've seen prior to the physical act, WW initiated all the lunches, etc. and he was very aloof. But, generally, yeah, it's ridiculous how the WS will so often attribute good motives to someone who WANTED TO SLEEP WITH A MARRIED PERSON.

That was the basis of my original thread here (Affair is over for OP but not for WS) and I simply did not know what to do with a "one-side" A. With all the evidence I've now gathered that WW was just trying to lay low and wait it out, I will not feel any guilt for anything I do that upsets WW (snooping, exposure, etc.)

I see no reason to contact his new workplace unless he breaks his word about contact. Right now your wife is the big problem.

From a linguistic analysis point of view, I glean this:

She is looking for him to confirm that he had feelings for her.

That this wasn't a romp for him.

The guilt is building within her, and she is scrambling to thwart it, justify her actions, and try to make sense of what happened. Make it "right" again, because the sunlight is starting to break through, and she doesn't like what she sees.

That's why she is including the "we were best friends" part, because friends don't just walk away from each other, yadda-yadda. Her mind is reeling, and she is hurting.

Bguy, it looks like it is over on his side. She is begging to have one chance to see him again (the lunch). Likely to look at him and see what she feels, is it real, does he still remember what he felt (or what her fantasy tells her he felt). She knows it's over and can't believe that what she thought was "pure love" was something that misled her and left her looking foolish in front of co-workers.

I also wonder how much projection she is doing when she talks of "making you move and change jobs". This letter reveals that those are more likely her own feelings - that she feels forced to get another job because of her adulterous behavior.



Don't feel any guilt over snooping.

Stick with Plan A. She will turn around and see you standing there. Make eye contact with her whenever you can, and let your eyes lovingly but strongly stay on hers - very important right now.


SB

If you have access to your WW's email, block his email address. Nothing will hurt more than her long, heartfelt email not getting a response.

Yup.

"PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZ tell me that I wasn't just a free piece of ASSSSSSSSSSSSS to you . . . "

It never changes, does it?
Mulan

BHHF,

I'm looking at Dr. H's advice to you and it seems to me that he had a few really important points:


So....where are you emotionally? Is it time for Plan B? Personally, that's really where I'd like to see you....but if you can be kind and compassionate a little while longer and you'd like to do that first...it's your choice.

If OM were pursuing HER....then I'd be inclined to get you stick out a little longer with your plan A....but this kind of blatant disrespect for you is so painful....I really think she needs to feel the consequences and reality of this little fantasy she has created.

schoolbus.....wow....insightful post. I think your description is dead-on.

I honestly think that if you went to a Plan B....she'd really pursue this guy. I also think he'd reject her soundly. It's a little stalkerish....and very unattractive. Don't be afraid to lovingly detach. I'm afraid she'll only value you and respect you when reality knocks her upside the head.

good luck

(((((((((((((((((bhhf)))))))))))))))

I would agree. Lovingly detach.

Be the man standing there, strong, loving her, but using the stick part just as much as the carrot of Plan A.

SB

Wow, Bugsmom has been following my thread and now posted on it! Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic. You're like a Plan A God to me. Someone recommended I read your Plan A thread and I spent days (literally) reading both it and your current Plan B threads. You had such a horrible WS and your Plan A was incredible. I don't know how you got through it, especially with kids. My WW isn't near that, because at least she tries to hide her contacts with OM (not very well).

You're hitting the nail on the head. Any pain and hurt she's been feeling has been the pain of 'Where's OM when I really need him?! Why hasn't he keep the promises he made to me that night?!' which is why I blew up with her a couple of months ago when I revealed I had contacted OMGF. 'Now he can't contact me! OMGF will think I'm a stalker!' WILL think? WILL think?! (She already thought that BTW, OM had told her he felt uncomfortable being around WW due to her constant e-mails and lunch/evening invitations)

Equates? She doesn't think they're on the same playing field. She thinks I get to feel good and self-righteous and high and mighty while she's suffering. And, of course, I'm the biggest cause of that suffering in her mind because I won't let her keep playing with her toys (although I did agree to it out of weakness/appeasement on D-Day).

I discovered the A almost two weeks prior to D-Day, so she missed out on the most intense and painful stages where your whole world just comes crashing down and life doesn't seem worth living anymore. Well, all you BS probably know what I'm talking about. That was largely hidden from her, so she mainly thinks I 'have issues.'

She pulled this stunt before he left, too. She e-mailed him that he was not allowed to make any decisions on his own. He owed it to her to discuss things with her first. His response was classic: 'I don't owe you anything'

It's 100% clear now. I'm actually not as hurt by the e-mail as I am relieved. Because now I'm not left wondering 'Gee, was this statement honest or fog? Is she coming out of it now?'

Now I can even see her e-mails to BFF as mostly fog. The problem is that BFF is in her own fog or something, so she just affirms everything WW says and builds on it. Here's one of her best/worst:

[color:"purple"]But I can also see it from several angles...On BH's end...I think it's devastating to BH if you continue to seek friendship with OM and that will be hard if you and BG decide to stay together. Then on OM's end...I also think it's damn hard for OM to branch out to you right now when there are so many obstacles (BH, his girlfriend, etc).

There are a lot of barriers and it's really ****** unfair to you. You have to think of yourself first and foremost and ALWAYS...and then possibly consider how the other might be feeling. I just hope you know that all of this will get
easier with time and it will make sense. Nothing is easy. I just hope that you're not staying with BH because you feel it's the right thing to do and have fears that you're going to hurt so many people. You're only going to hurt yourself and others if you do that. But if you want to stay with BH, then all means, work on it and work it out. I guess I just don't know or can't tell if you're remaining with BH out of habit or because there is still great and deep love there that you hope will be rekindled. It just seems so confusing when you two are still hanging out, despite the seperate bedrooms. If you leave BH and all that entails after...I know that you two will be friends...maybe not right away...but you guys have been so important to one another for so long, that I can't see that closeness/friendship ever going away. It would be a shame if it did. [/color]

Yeah, that'd be a real shame if I wasn't friends with WW after she leaves me 'and all that entails after.' The biggest shame of all...

It has helped me tremendously. Contrary to what it might seem, I actually have very little anger right now. Mostly bemusement. I do all sorts of little things for her (i.e. opening her car door) and it bugs her ('Why are you doing that?'). Funniest was when we arrived at Job Interview Location 1 a little early this morning and she said 'So now what will we do?' and I said 'Oh, I'm sure the two of us can find something to do here in the car together in an empty parking lot.' The sigh and eyeroll I got from that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Before she was picked up for her interview, she gave me $60 to gamble with and I turned it into $268 playing Texas Hold 'Em! Dunno if that meets an EN or not, but I will try and take her to a really nice restaurant tonight. [/color]

Just to be clear, I have no word from OM. The last week he was at work with WW, he promised her the two of them would talk in a couple of months after he'd settled into his new job (Uh, I'll call you, babe. I promise I'll try). So I will actually be contacting him again IF he keeps his word.

EXACTLY. She has been consistent from D-Day that she has to get closure from him and figure out why it happened (from him). She cannot accept that maybe he didn't really feel for her the way she felt for him and that makes her look stupid. A long time ago I saw her breaking down (now realize this was the fog lifting temporarily) and she asked me 'You must think I'm pretty stupid, huh?'

Post PA and prior to D-Day, this is what she wrote to BFF:

[color:"orange"] I'm still afraid that it was more physical than emotional for him and he's just going to tell me that it can't happen ever again and he's staying with his girlfriend. I mean, I can't be fortunate enough to have all my wishes come true about OM (honestly, I want him to say that he wants to be with me and that he feels the same for me as I do for him) ... it's amazing as it is that I got to have that night with him, which you know I never believed would happen ... but I wished for so long that it would. I'm trying to tell myself that I can at least cherish that, which I would rather have than nothing, as a way to prepare myself for the worst when we finally do talk. [/color]

BTW, that was the e-mail I accidentally stumbled across. It's still painful to read. Oh, and that talk? That's the one they haven't had for four months now. Gee, ya think maybe he doesn't feel the same way?!

Yeah, the job change thing is a complicated issue. She took a new position at the company but seriously questioned whether or not it was the right choice. She was never happy with it. But I think all of us here know that sometimes when a person is unhappy with something in their life, it's actually caused by something else. It was in that very same e-mail where she committed to start looking for a new job:

[color:"orange"]This is the only part of my life I'm certain of right now. I'm still not sure if I want to leave STATE. I still don't know what to do about BH or OM. I have started thinking about moving somewhere on my own and thought the easiest way to do that would be to get a new job in another town, so there would be a significant reason.[/color]

I'll be showing this little tidbit to IC, in case she's been telling him that the reason she wants to go live on her own is because of how horrible I've been since D-Day.

I've thought about this but have two arguments against it.

• This could tip her off that I have complete access to her private account and close that avenue of info.
• If OM DOES respond via e-mail, I would want to provide that to OMGF, OM's family, etc.