No matter what happens "EVERYTHING WILL BE O-K!!"

It doesn't matter... what matters is you told him. This bursts the A bubble forever. The fantasy is over now. It doesn't matter what FIL is like, how he reacts and how similar he is to your W (who is like this because she is in the FOG). My mom was a "whatever makes you happy, dear" parent. Ultimately, the decision to stay married was up to me.

This exposure lets your W and her family know that you are a stand-up guy who is fighting for his M. It's painful, your W is going to be raging mad, but no one can ever deny this truth. You did a very brave and noble thing.

I met with the IC today to discuss his 'therapeutic separation' plan that he had brought up with WW. He gave me the details (which WW doesn't yet know) and it is very similar to Plan B. The separation entails that both spouses not contact each other in any form for at least three months unless there is an emergency like a fire, etc. Financial details are handled through a 3rd-party. During the time of separation the spouses are not allowed to date, go out on dinners, or anything affectionate with members of the opposite sex. They are to stay out of touch with the AP completely, otherwise the point of it is ruined. They are both to journal daily and spend at least 1/2-hour each day reflecting on how they contributed to the state of the marriage (not the other spouse). They are to continue seeing the IC and share how they're doing.

I shared with him all that I had learned since our last session: that WW was still trying to contact OM, the advice from the radio show, advice from people on the board, the example of Sue from SAA. He agreed very much with the Harley's advice on the radio show and I told him that the separation plan he detailed sounded very much like a Plan B.

I'm very curious to see how WW will feel about it when she hears the conditions, considering that it specifically states she cannot contact OM or explore any other romantic relationships. I asked him how that would be monitored and/or verified, but let's face it, that doesn't even happen in a standard Plan B. In the standard Plan B, the WS is totally free to continue their affair without any restrictions.

Now I know you all said I should not agree to a separation (and I said I wouldn't). But why would I NOT agree to this separation? Especially if it could save me the hassle of getting a lawyer involved with the finances.

Guy - the goal of most "marriage" counselors is to end conflict - NOT to help you save your marriage.

If this counselor can get you and WW to completely avoid each other for three solid months, there will indeed be no conflict, and the counselor can pat himself on the back and tell himself he's done his job.

Unfortunately, he won't have done a damn thing to help your marriage.

Plan B gives the WS a way back to the marriage if/when they agree to NC with the affair partner.

This counselor's "therapeutic separation" has NO path back to the marriage for the WS. Instead of requring your WS going NC with her affair partner, this counselor requires her to go NC with YOU.

Huh???

I say do a proper Plan B with a Plan B letter if you want any chance of saving this.

If you want to end it, then do the "therapeutic separation" and file for D now because that's the only place it's going to lead.
Mulan

You know...I was really against this therapeutic sep...but I will tell you the way the therapist laid it out..it has the vast majority of plan B protections built in. Mulan makes a great point about their needing to be a way bak to the marriage shoudl all of the conditions be met...but other than that tweaking, I think the plan has merit and IMHO, it is a lot better than most therapists do.

I read back through the thread. I am gonna go with MEDC on this one mainly because it has NC with OM built in. If she will do it, then you have a chance.

BUT, construct a way back like Mulan sez. It is still pretty early on in the predictable cycle so be nice to her up front - good memories. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Larry

I vote for doing the separation but calling it PLAN B and sending a proper plan B letter according to the standard outline.

Actually...this would be a good plan...IF...

...the counselor had any way to enforce or garauntee that WW would have NO CONTACT with OM.

But, he doesn't. So in reality, she's going to go NC with you and party with OM.

Given that, tell her IC you've got an alternate plan...plan B. Explain to him why you're implementing it and what the goal is...have your plan B letter ready so that he can clearly understand 'the way back'.

Same basic advice everyone else is giving. If you follow an unmodified version of the counselor's plan, you're going to be in worse straights than ever...not only will your wife likely not want to come back, she'll feel justified in it because 'its what the doctor ordered'. And, if she does start to want to come back...she won't know how, or you'll take her back without the proper boundaries and safegaurds in place.

I don't know...

I don't think it's the right time for Plan B. Your W just made contact and is foggy. If you stick by her and don't let her leave, it delivers a very powerful message.

I would wait and see what happens after she finds out about exposure. Keep reiterating how important your M is, and your trying to save it.

I say there's still time for more Plan A. Your W needs you now more then ever. When YOU can't stand it, then move to Plan B.

I was a mess when I was in withdrawl from OM. I was a complete lunatic. If my H had left me at this point (something I wanted him to do) I'm convinced I would have ended up in a looney bin. If you can stand to stick by your W for a little while longer, I highly recommend it. My H is my hero now because of this.

Also...

You and your W have some trust issues (with SF and money) that we've discussed before... do Plan B for you, but if your W is willing to do MC I really think it would be worth investing the emotional energy into exploring these issues. Otherwise, you will both carry them into new relationships. If the both of you are willing at some point, the fix to these problems is not as difficult as you might think.

I know all of this seems distant and bleak (if not impossible) right now, but I really think your M is worth saving.

Please don't seperate unless it's for your own sanity.

I picked up WW from airport on Thursday evening and she happily told me all about her final day in Job Interview Location 2, where she was on her own to freely explore the city. While she was there she was contacted by another newspaper in a different city and has set up an interview w/them for Monday. I didn't want to distract her during her interviews this week and the same held true for the upcoming one, so I knew I'd need to inform her of Exposure to her family earlier than Saturday or Sunday. However, her flight was late getting in and since I definitely didn't want to broach the subject while we were on an hour-long drive, I figured I'd wait until Friday.

We both hadn't eaten anything in hours, although I'd passed the time in the airport by getting a drink, so I wasn't starving. But during the drive back, she kept remarking about how hungry she was. So I pulled off at the next exit. Since it was so late, the only option was fast food drive-thru. She said she'd get something that was easy to eat in a moving car. But after we got the food she mentioned how maybe we could just park in the parking lot and eat and I told her that seemed like a fine idea. Then she said it was a lame idea because we were wasting time in a parking lot when we could be eating at home and watching TV. So I started the drive again and she questioned how I would eat while driving, which I replied I would just wait until we got back. And, of course, she thought that was a terrible idea because then my food would be cold. So then she didn't even want to eat her food and 'why did you even stop for food anyway?' Can you tell that this was a very frustrating experience for me? She's only been back for less than one hour and my attempts to meet her needs are being shot down at every opportunity ('I don't know why you even picked me up, it's a big waste of your time to drive all the way up and wait around'). She did relent and eat most of her dinner on the trip back and I ate mine upon our arrival. The next morning I discovered she had sent him a text message that night after I went to bed.

She had Friday off, and I knew her parents were waiting on me to inform her (and it'd been a couple of days since I'd talked to them) so when I came back home for my lunch break I figured it'd be a good time since I'd be working late into the evening and it'd give her family hours of time to talk to her alone if they needed it. I told her that she should give her Dad a call tonight because he wanted to talk to her about everything. She was very distressed that I had done this, obviously, and accused me of trying to humiliate her. She wanted to know what all I'd told them and 'you probably said I had an affair, didn't you?' She said she didn't want to talk to them and 'how could I face them ever again?' I reiterated that her family loved her and cared about her and not to underestimate that.

She didn't understand why I do all these nice things and then turn around and make her feel horrible. She said she was glad that she'd been looking for jobs and new places to live without keeping me in mind.

I told her that I hoped her family's knowledge and involvement would help end the relationship between her and OM. Of course, she reiterated that there wasn't anything there. I told her that she hadn't been telling me what she said to him or he said to her. She said he still hadn't said anything to her and that she had told me about the last time she had contacted him. I said 'Really? What about a 17-minute call that our latest bill shows was placed just two weeks ago?' 'Oh, right, that I forgot about. But it was just a message. The connection kept breaking up, so it took a long time.' I don't know that I believe that. She said she hadn't told me because it was too humiliating to tell me every time she contacted him. I told her that was an excuse, but not an acceptable reason and I would not accept any contact for any reason. She explained how she knew the two of them had no future together but that she needed explanations from him and 'it's not fair' to her that he's off having the time of his life while she's feeling terrible and being humiliated by everyone.

After I got back to work, I sent FIL an e-mail explaining that I had told her and she said she couldn't talk to them and I'd try to reassure her. He sent a nice e-mail back that said:

[color:"#666666"]Thank you BHHFSGuy

I'm sorry you had to deal with that, and saddened that WW feels that she can't speak to me about this or anything else bothering her. I'll call her sometime today and hopefully alleviate that situation and some of her anxiety over that issue.

You're a good man, BHHFSGuy. Take care of yourself in this situation.[/color]

That made me feel good, as did when SMIL called me up to ask if I'd talked to WW and would I be okay with SMIL calling WW. She was very concerned about the situation and asked about the job interviews. She said I was very supportive and a wonderful guy. I cautioned her that WW would not be saying that to her when she called. But I accepted it anyway as I figured it might be the last time FIL & SMIL would say nice things to me.

I came back home quite late, due to helping out at an event where I work. WW was on the phone at the time. Turns out she was talking to BFF, who had a 2-1/2 hour conversation with her. She was in full WW mode after she got off the phone. She came up to the bedroom and said she'd spent the evening trying to deal with my 'little stunt' and that my plan totally backfired because her family said she should probably leave me. At first I was a little stunned by this statement, but I figured she was trying to get a bad reaction from me and I didn't give her any bad reactions for the rest of the conversation. She said that it's actions like this one (and moving back into the bed) that are causing her to lose her love for me. I almost started laughing (just smiled) and said 'Oh, I didn't realize you still had love for me.' 'It's getting smaller,' she said. 'Oh, so there's still some there!'

She said the reason we weren't being able to work things out is because I can't get over her one mistake and am fixated on OM. And that is really just a symptom of much bigger problems that I'm the source of. I asked her what those bigger problems were and she said it's that I don't listen to her. Like how I used to let the dishes pile up in the sink even though she mentioned it to me. And how she asked me to get her tater tots on a dinner run last week instead of french fries and I forgot to ask for the substitution and she had to eat fries. And how she said she didn't want to tell her family about this situation but I did it anyway. All those things mean I don't listen to her. I tried to explain that listening to someone and doing exactly what they say aren't the same thing. Because if they were, the fact that she's still contacting OM means she's not listening to me.

She explained how she now truly realizes that she's actually been unhappy the entire marriage but just didn't know it (So maybe she's actually happy now but just doesn't know it, right?). I think I hear her BFF in a lot of this. She's always tried to convince WW that I treat WW poorly and 'Gee, doesn't it make you mad when BHHFSGuy does this? It should. I'd be unhappy/mad.'

She asked me if I felt good about myself and smug and satisfied with the stunt I'd pulled. Said I think so highly of myself and I'm self-righteous and a hypocrite. That I have some gall to constantly press her about being honest and not lying when I have my own secrets and am being deceptive all the time. She said my scheme had totally backfired just like when I contacted OMGF but didn't realize OM had been gaslighting her (this is the first time I've heard WW use the term 'gaslighting').

I had prepared myself for much worse reactions, so I had no trouble letting most of it run off me and responded much less than I usually do. Reason truly has no place in these conversations. However, I did tell her that she was the one that needed to get over OM and she said she didn't need either of us and wanted to just go away and be strong on her own and not be my trophy wife & breadwinner anymore (is it really possible for someone to be a trophy wife & a breadwinner? Aren't they mutually exclusive?). Yet other times she said she didn't even know why I wanted to be with her anymore and 'why are you even trying?'

She said her family had invited her to come visit for a family retreat soon. I told her it'd be good, which I do believe. I think she wanted me to be grabby and protective and say she couldn't talk to her family anymore because they were a bad influence. I don't truly know what they said to her, but the talks only lasted 26 and 17 minutes prior to the 179-minute call to BFF, so I think there was more of BFF in her speech than ILs. Oh, and she had called and texted OM that night too.

I think she wanted me to freak out about her talking about leaving/separating, which, of course, does not scare me at all. I would welcome it with some relief. There were semi-threats, like how if I didn't stop pulling all these stunts and making her feel horrible that she might just leave me. I simply stated 'OK' anytime she mentioned leaving. I'm not going to push her out the door, but I'm not going to grab onto her ankles and try and drag her back in if she did. One of my co-workers asked me an interesting question that I didn't have a simple answer for: 'Why hasn't she left?' Classic fence-sitter, though?

This morning I went out and dropped off her mail at the post office (which reminds me of another crappy story from earlier this week), picked up the new Buffy comic book for her, a turkey sub from one of her favorite sub places, and we had a pleasant lunch sitting next to each other before I left for work. I shared my drink with her because we were out of soda and she had no complaints.

Gee, is that long enough for ya? I'll try and respond to your messages about the IC's separation plan soon, but we don't even have an appt. set up yet, so there's no rush there. I will continue to Plan A right now, but my energy has lowered considerably in the last couple of weeks, so I'm detaching a bit (hence being at work on a Saturday afternoon) and will continue to prep for Plan B.

17 minutes to leave a message....ah the lies WS tell.

I thought there was a time limit for messages, I have had messages cut off if they go long?

Good job and not letting her get a rise out of you. Just keep meeting her needs when she allows you, and avoid LBs (like you did today) and get ready to hit her with plan B.

typical WS reacton to exposure, including pretending those exposed to all approve of the adultery and want her to leave you...

oh yea, I forgot, there is no adultery... (hmph)

I think you handled it very well!

I think it would be a godd idea for her to go spend some time with her family. It will give you a break from her insanity and will give her family an opportunity to confront her. (I doubt seriously they responded to the exposure the way she claims.) Also, the family may notice her sneaking to contact OM, um the OM she supposedly is NOT having an A with... the OM you are just imagining... That shoudl prove a challenge to her LOL

WW came into the bedroom last night while I was getting ready for bed and started to talk about things again, but in a much less foggy mode. At first she was asking about how long I had talked to everyone and how it had probably used up most of the shared minutes of our cell phone plan (as if that is a real big concern right now; plus it's one of the bills I pay). I tried to assure her that she still had hundreds of minutes left to use. She wanted to return a message left by SIL1. I was glad to hear this, as I originally wasn't sure if SIL1 would feel comfortable initiating a conversation with WW.

WW also brought up the family retreat that is next weekend. Her family has offered to pay her airfare so she can join them, but WW isn't sure she wants to go since 'they didn't originally want me there. So now they just want me there because of this.' Plus she'd have to take another day or two off work so soon after taking a week off to surreptitiously do job interviews (her current manager/boss doesn't know she wants to leave).

WW started discussing the two job opportunities she's interviewed for so far. She was talking about the benefits/disadvantages of each and what she liked/didn't like about their locations. These discussions are difficult for me because she's basically asking my advice on where to go when she leaves me, but I tried to forget about that and just converse with her about it as if that wasn't an issue at all. I think I was meeting her No. 1 EN of Conversation, and I tried to throw in some Admiration where I could, since the day saw little RC. Also new to the conversation was the statement that she might not give her current employer one month's notice, as originally planned, but 2-3 weeks. Ironically enough, she got a jury summons in the mail on Friday for the week of Oct. 15.

She mentioned that BFF was still hoping to come down and visit us in a few weeks, which surprised me a little, considering I'd told WW's family about BFF's involvement in the development of A (which, of course, it was/is not). I said her visit would be fine by me but mentioned she'd have to sleep on the couch since WW was using the spare bedroom. WW said BFF could use the spare bedroom and WW would sleep on the couch. BFF is a few months pregnant now so the available time for her to come visit is limited. WW brought up the concept of the two of them just going into 'the city' by themselves since she was afraid BFF and I would get into a fight. I tried to assure her that I'd be fine with BFF visiting and the three of us should do some fun things together. I can't say I'm looking forward to that possibility, but I will try to continue and Plan A BFF because any LBs I send her way will undoubtedly be relayed straight to WW. I also think it will be a way of giving WW a preview of our future marriage, where I'm not vindictive to BFF. I don't want to give BFF any ammunition.

WW asked what my parents said when I talked to them and whether or not my Mom would be calling (she normally calls us every week or two to check in and this has been an annoyance for WW). I told her they were very sad about the situation and would be praying for us. Wasn't sure if that was a good idea to mention or not, since WW is not a practicing Christian. Also that both my Mom and I agreed she should not call WW because it probably wouldn't do any good. WW has really wanted to know what exactly I've told everyone and what they've said to me in return. In the case of my parents, she speculated that 'they probably told you to ditch me' and that everything was her fault and that I'm perfect. I said that wasn't the case and they'd said no such thing.

WW also wanted to know if I was still planning to not tell her biological Mother, which I confirmed. The two of them are basically estranged, so I think it'd be a really bad idea. WW doesn't normally answer calls from her mother, so she certainly wouldn't want to talk to her about this. WW said 'I guess you know that much about me.'

She left me to sleep while she called SIL1. That conversation lated 189 minutes (10 minutes longer than call from BFF) so I think that's a good sign. Since she's got another job interview/test tomorrow, I don't want to distract her mind today with all this talk.

I'm not sure if it would be LBing or not... so maybe not a good idea... but when my WXH (and his family) brought up the expense of any responses I had to his adulteries (MC, private detective, lawyer, divorce, cellphone usage to expose, etc.) I would respond with the fact that the adultery itself was taking money away from our family plus all expsense of the consequences of his adultery were all expenses caused by him and his OW.

You might want to ask more experienced posters if this is a good idea or not though... after all I was NOT successful at saving my marriage LOL (I'm much better at debate than my WXH was and even sarcastic at times... so I know an LB from my WXH's pov was that he could never win an argument with me. Of course since he was basically trying to argue that his adulteries were OK and that I should just allow them I don't feel guilt about not letting him win those arguments LOL)

SIL2 called WW last night and the two of them talked for 174 minutes. I ended up heading to bed before they were finished, but WW came into the bedroom afterward and had a brief conversation with me. I was kind of tired, so I don't remember it all, but she was in a bit of a foggy/WW mode. She brought up the idea of the separation again and asked if I was scared. I said I wasn't. I got the feeling she thinks I'm just hanging on desperately because I don't know how to live without her and I depend on her too much. Thus I've fought separation because I'm scared. I was tired and didn't trust myself not to say something I'd regret, so I mainly just kept quiet. It probably gave her the impression that I was tacitly agreeing with what she said or that it hit home, but I still felt that was better than trying to reason with her.

Due to the late hour, she apologized for waking me and didn't want to stay and talk. I asked her for a goodnight hug before she left and got 'Gee, I dunno.' She reluctantly came and sat down next to me while I hugged her. I offered to give her a back rub or foot rub or anywhere else rub, but she begged off and apologized for not wanting to give me a goodnight hug. Of course, I'm sure she's told all her family that she's been trying to work on the marriage.

Now that I've exposed to friends, co-workers and both of our families, I've been getting more opinions/advice than I had in the first few months when it was just me and anonymous Internet users who've been through the same experience.

I mentioned that I was quite down after talking with FIL because his advice to me seemed to be about steeling myself for divorce. My Father also expressed that I should not feel bad about getting a divorce and he would not judge me for doing so. Now my Mother has noted that it will be very hard for her to face WW 'after the turmoil she has created on people that love her.' Meanwhile WW asks me 'Why do you even want to be with me still?' and says her family thinks we should separate. My co-workers feel sorry for me but probably wonder why I am putting so much effort into someone that consistently hurts me. One of my friends even asked me 'How can you stand to look at her?'

So am I really making the right choice by trying to save this marriage? Is this just a moment of doubt and I'll be happy to have proved them wrong in xx months? Have the rest of you felt like this and overcome it successfully?

Yep. Most people just don't want to see you suffer and don't understand because they haven't been through what you are going through. They'll support you and agree with your decision if your WW commits again.