Tried to continue my Plan A efforts today. Told her to have a good day before I left for work. Called her in the late afternoon at her workplace just to chat about how her day was going. She couldn't talk too much since she's mainly been thinking about when to give her notice/contact the landlord/etc. But I let her know what I was thinking about making for dinner and that I'd pick up the missing pieces at the store on my way home. When WW got home, she commented that it smelled good. Hmmm, that doesn't sound like WW. She hung out in the kitchen while I finished up. When I spilled a little bit while dishing it up, she actually cleaned it up. And when I burned my fingers a little by mistakenly grabbing the baking pan, she expressed concern and then said it was a very understandable mistake to make. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Who are you and what have you done with WW? Even before the A, I would've expected 'Why'd you touch it? That wasn't very smart' and later on when my fingers hurt 'Why are you complaining? It was your own mistake.' Now, I know after reading other threads that I should not read too much into this and take it as some kind of sign, especially since WW asked me tonight for landlord's number to let him know she'd be moving out in October. But it did give me some hope that there's still good W in there. I needed that, since earlier today I was a little concerned that after last night I maybe had no love left to protect anymore. Gonna have some Ben & Jerry's and watch Top Chef.

Oh, and WW did make an appointment with IC for next Thursday morning. I'm looking forward to her finding out that the separation she's been so excited about him telling me about requires that she have no contact with OM. Hmm, she just told me last night that she couldn't do that... Oh, and then I can get back my copy of SAA, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think she's waffling. If you hold steady, I think she'll come back to you. "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" in this instance would mean that a committed and caring husband is worth more than somebody full of promises who doesn't have a lot of regard for marital commitment.
Cherishing

She's waffling. She doesn't want to lose you completely from her life, so she's going to try and be nice to you as she leaves you, so you're there if she changes her mind.

I've been preparing to implement Plan B and today I started writing my Plan B Letter. I started with the sample letter provided in SAA, but had to modify it considerably based on our situation. Please give me your suggestions as to what I should change:

Dear WW,

I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OM possible. I foolishly overlooked the signs of your unhappiness and was ignorant of my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I neglected to understand the importance of open and honest communication and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end all communications with OM permanently.

Until then, I will not see you, talk to you or communicate with you in any form. Any required communications such as financial arrangements should be given to INTERMEDIARY (contact information is included below). INTERMEDIARY will pass the relevant information on to me and provide you with a response, if necessary.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured since discovering your relationship with OM. I still love you, but I simply cannot bear to see or speak to you while this situation continues.

When you are willing to permanently end all contact with OM, make efforts to prevent further infidelity and express remorse for your actions, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I want us to be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you as my best friend.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are contacting OM.

Love,
BHHFSGuy

Very beautiful and touching. A Plan B letter that will give her pause. A Plan B letter that will make her think -- what am I doing?

Cherishing

I'm not a plan B expert, but this paragraph has got to go. You are blaming yourself for her affair. I would just focus on the following main points

1) You still love her, and do not want a divorce.
2) You will be able to forgive her.
3) You are a changed man and will do whatever it takes to make your marriage work if she gives it another chance.
4) Continued contact with her will hurt you if she is not willing to work on the marriage, so respect your wishes of NC.
5) She is either your W or nothing to you, you will not be friends.
6) She needs to agree to the conditions you decide before you will talk to her again.
7) The door is still open...for now.

Well, not quite. It's the last line that's a bit ambiguous. It's Ok (and I'd actually advise it) to take partial responsibility for the breakdown of the M. I'd suggest rewriting the last line to reflect this, and also reflect that he's taking no responsibility for her choice to have an A.

BHHFSGuy,

Excellent. I wouldn't change anything in your letter except the first sentence to read like this:

"I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OM possible, although I take no responsibility for your choice to have an affair."

When are you plannig to give her this Plan B letter???

Until then, you are in Plan A.

I just came up with an idea to help you finish Plan A strong.

Part of her mean attitude is an attempt to rationalize and justify her affair and get you to react but another part of it is perhaps to keep you at bay and let you down easy. She sees you being nice and she doesn't want to give you any hope and hurt you more. She KNOWS she's hurt you but is doing everything she can to not think about it.

You being nice to her is confusing and frustrating and, remember, she WANTS to hate you.

I was just thinking that for the next couple of weeks you ACKNOWLEDGE she is leaving (not approve of it) and seemingly accept that this is it...the end of the marriage. You approach her with a seeming cease-fire. You've been together 13 years and married for 8 of those...why not just try to end it on a high note. She thinks your marriage is over and you just agree that's probably for the best anyway. Neither one of you are satisfied with the marriage. Put yourself in the "marriage is over" boat with her and let's just try to end this better than any other marriage in history has ended.

No relationship talk. No more "trying". No more snooping. Just fun. Say things like "I don't want to look back years from now and regret not enjoying your company for these last few weeks. I want to look back fondly on our marriage" and/or "I don't want to look back on our long relationship and only remember the sting of the last 6 months...WE can end this right".

Many waywards will buy into this. It's part of the fantasy that they can keep you around as a friend or a back up plan.

Then...for the next few weeks literally enjoy her company as best you can. The more conversation you have, reminiscing (sp?) old memories, friends, and places the better. ACT like you accept the finality of it. KNOW that the peace of Plan B is forthcoming. There is no reason to be or act hurt the next few weeks. You've got time for that later in Plan B. The more needs you meet the more likely Plan B will be intolerable (she will hopefully miss you and ending on a high note will make withdrawal from you more difficult) for her but that's not your problem. She either gets it or not. Either way ... you, soon, will be moving on with your life. She'll either catch up or remain in the dust.

Mr. Wondering

Have been continuing my Plan A efforts, although it's difficult because I'm so behind with work that it's eating into my home life (because my home life has been eating into work). Yesterday I took her out for our weekly lunch. It was so filling that we weren't hungry for dinner, so we just ended up eating popcorn and watching the premiere of one of our longstanding favorite TV shows. However, I did have to leave the room when 'The Office' came on. It's her favorite show because she sees herself as Pam (visits the actress's MySpace page secretly) and OM as Jim. Guess who that makes me?

This morning I made arrangements for WW to get a massage tomorrow afternoon, as it has been a month since her last one. I sent her a TM confirming her appt. and received the following TM response:

[color:"green"] Thanks! You got more done before I even got into the office. BTW, I am using the T9 text setting and you were right about it being easy once you get used to it.[/color]

I just want to say that her saying 'you were right' makes me feel good, even if it's about something as mundane as text message settings.

"You were right, Luke. Tell your sister you were right..."

Sorry Pam (WW), but in real life Jim (OM) is staying in Stamford and sticking with Karen (OMGF). Pam (WW) will go back to Roy (you) as long as Roy (you) doesn't smash up a bar and take a swing at Jim (OM). Do you follow?

Seriously, just hang in there until she gets ready to leave. I would find yourself a new place right before she leaves (shows you might be moving on) and go to plan B when she leaves (but don't help her move). She will probably file for D after she's gone, so get yourself a good, tough lawyer, and tell him to drag it out as long as possible, and have him fight for as much as possible (that way it will delay things further as she will continue to try and negotiate less, and you will make it financially painful to leave you). Your attorney (not you, let him do all the work, that way you can blame it all on him) should fight for MORE than half (due to marital misconduct) of everything (household possessions, savings, her 401k, cars, etc) as well as full spousal support (according to the law) and pay for your attorney. This will not hurt your chance for reconciliation, but it will make leaving you more difficult. Even if it doesn't work, you at least got some compensation for the destruction she has caused to your life. Don't let her manipulate you or guilt you into getting a penny less than what the law dictates you are entitled to.

WW and I met with the IC this morning for the joint session. You might remember that I was originally dreading this. After I found out the specifics of his structured/therapeutic separation, I started looking forward to it. This is Part 1 of the transcript of the session. It's not perfect, but it's a lot more accurate than a recounting from my memory will be.

IC: OK, tell me; what's our agenda today?

WW: Um, well, last time I came in here, you said you wanted to talk about therapeutic separation. As an option? So I guess I need to know more about that.

IC: So you want to know if a separation would help or hinder?

WW: Yeah, just how it would help.

IC: Mm-hmm. OK. BHHFSGuy?

Me: Well, um, I'm here because WW mentioned it to me and you had asked if I could come so you could discuss it with the both of us. So I told her I'd be willing to listen to you. My goal is to protect/preserve/save the marriage, so if someone has a plan to help do that, I'm willing to listen to that plan.

(LONG PAUSE)

IC: So, what's the state of the marriage today?

WW: Not great. Um, I told you before that I have been interviewing for jobs and since they are newspaper jobs, anything I take requires me to move. And I have decided to accept a job in LOST WAGES, CA. So that means I'll have to move there. I was just thinking maybe that would be good for us to have some space to kind of think things over and I just feel like maybe if I'm just by myself and have only myself to rely on and myself to ponder and I'm removed from BHHFSGuy, then I can know for sure if I want to keep working on things. Like depriving myself, maybe? Just because I'm really, really confused about things and what to do. I even have a lot of doubt about taking this job and moving. And I'm just not certain what is the best way to find those answers for myself.

IC: When you hear her dilemma, what's your thoughts?

Me: I'm aware that she's been looking for work, to take a job elsewhere, to go and not be with me anymore.

WW: Not 'anymore'

Me: OK, well, to go away and not be with me. I guess I won't put the word 'anymore' on there. That is something that she has been wanting to do for some time now, since even before I found out about the affair she wanted to do that. I understand that's what she wants to do. There's clearly some conflict in her mind about 'am I making the right choice or not?' I know there's still hope for us because of that, because there are feelings still there. I believe that those feelings can be fully recovered if we both work on it. I've been trying my best to fix problems of myself and try and try to avoid repeating annoying behaviors that I have and making changes to myself and my lifestyle to be a better, more attractive person and to attempt to resolve some of the issues that we've had with the marriage. So I think that I disagree with her in the sense that she says it would help if she left. I don't necessarily agree with that opinion. But it's not really my choice to make.

IC: So your disagreement with the position is that if she separates ... what's your opinion?

Me: I don't truly believe that she feels that separating is a way to work on the marriage. Because her actions and her words haven't always been in sync with each other over the past four months and sometimes even her words and her other words have not been in sync with each other. So I'm not fully trusting or believing that the intentions behind certain actions are the same as what the spoken words of those intentions are.

IC: So there's kind of a double meaning or message?

Me: I don't know if it's a double meaning. I don't necessarily believe that it's intentional. Maybe it's a subconscious thing. But if I ask her 'What actions have you taken that will give me some sort of evidence that you are interested in working on the marriage?' the answer I got was 'Well, I haven't left you.' That's it. So if that's the one thing she's done as an action that would be working on the marriage, then how could leaving me also be an action to work on the marriage? In and of itself, it's a total contradiction. Either staying is working on the marriage or leaving is, but they can't both be working on the marriage. I don't quite grasp that contradiction.

WW: Y'know, I'm just... The context of when you asked me that question was you were basically yelling at me and then you expect me to give answers instantly. When I thought about it later, I thought about how I did that questionnaire for you (ENQ). I came here, which you know was very difficult for me. And then when you say my words are contradicting, are you referring to e-mails in my personal account that you have broken into and read and are now throwing back in my face? Things like that. And I don't understand where you ... It seems like you just think I'm a liar all the time. And now you're saying I was planning to leave you before this summer? That's not true. You know I'm unhappy with my job and ... y'know ... TRANSMISSION GARBLED ... all at once. It's like, I don't enjoy my job. I can't... It just seems like everything is a mess right now and it's at the point where I can't keep existing like this. The nature of my career is to change my job, is to change everything. You just seem to be operating on this belief that everything is part of this grand scheme of mine to just leave you and it's not. But it's just... I'm just afraid, I don't want to get to a point where I hate you, like where my parents are now, my mom and my dad. And if I have to keep having these arguments with you where I have to ask you to please stop going into my e-mail and reading messages that are between me and my friend and calling my family behind my back and telling them all this stuff and things like that. It's just hard to live with you when you're doing these things. It hurts me a lot. It's like you're violating me, my thoughts.

Me: I'm sorry that you feel that way. In terms of the 'context,' you said I was yelling at you and I don't believe that I was yelling at you-

WW: Well, we weren't having a rational conversation. It wasn't like we were sitting on the couch and you said 'So, WW, tell me. What have you been doing to work on the marriage?' It was this sarcastic, superior, like 'I'm doing everything, you're doing nothing, you're ruining, this is all your fault.' These are the things you said to me around that question you asked me, like 'you're ruining everything, this is all your fault. Have you even done anything? Tell me one thing you've done.' (I just want to note that I never said she's ruining everything nor that this is all her fault)

Me: First, you did accuse me of yelling at you...

WW: You were raising your voice. I classify raising a voice as yelling. As someone who's been yelled at a lot (her biological M)

Me: I'm sorry that I raised my voice. It is a tendency. I'm trying to work on that as best I can. I agree that it wasn't really a rational conversation in the sense that you presented me with seemingly irrational things to deal with. I don't bring up things, you bring them up and I'm going to respond. And you accused me first of acting as though you weren't doing anything. So I asked 'What are you doing?' I do appreciate you filling out the ENQ and I accept that. I will continue to express that I appreciate that. As far as the 'it's not true that you weren't going to leave beforehand' you specifically wrote 'I'm going to start looking for a job because that will give me a good reason to leave.' That's what you wrote before I knew about anything. So I have to ask, who am I supposed to believe? What you wrote or what you're saying now? You wrote in the e-mail 'I'm going to start looking for a job. I've decided I'm going to do that. I think it'd be the best thing for me to do is to find a new job and move away. Because finding a new job would give me a good reason to go away.'

WW: Do you have copies of these e-mails? Because you have them memorized and it disturbs me. And you think it's OK. That's what really disturbs me. You think it's OK to take those things from me.

Me: I think that it's OK for me to know what's going on with my marriage. That is my business. That's my life. If someone is going to be having a conversation about something they're going to be doing to me, I would like to know what that is. Especially if my own W is planning to do things and not tell me what she's planning to do.

WW: It's not a plan. It's just I'm so confused and messed up and lost. It's just... I don't know what to do. You seem to think I have a plan.

Me: You keep saying 'you seem to think this, you seem to think that' and you're kind of projecting these things that 'I seem to think'

WW: You get upset with me when I don't remember these things I wrote. It's like... I don't. Thoughts are just coming out of me that just change constantly. Like 'I'm going to turn down the job offer, I'm going to take it back. Maybe I shouldn't go'... I don't know. I know you're trying to change and you're doing nice things and all that and I do appreciate it (WW appreciates my Plan A efforts!) but it just gets so confusing when, like, I told you, you do them and then two days later, it's 'Hey, while you were off at this job interview I called your sisters and your parents and told them you're having an affair.'

Me: The reason that I did that was to-

WW: When I told you I didn't want to talk with them about what was going on.

Me: I understand that you don't want to talk with your family about what's going on, but that isn't helping this situation.

WW: Like you not listening to me or respecting my wishes? And I know you think that you don't agree with anything I think, so it's like why you do it anyway, but to continue to not, y'know, it just seems like everything I say, I'm just talking to a wall, like 'fine that's what you think, but I know better and I'm honest and you're a liar, so that's how it goes.'

Me: You're concern is I'm not respecting your wishes. And it kind of goes back to 'What are your wishes?'

WW: I don't know, that's the thing. It's like you want all these final answers and I don't know.

Me: I haven't asked for final answers.

WW: You act like me going to LOST WAGES, CA is like, 'that's the end of everything.' You said 'you leaving is destroying the marriage' and I don't consider it that. And when IC explained the therapeutic separation is like time apart and you just focus on yourself and there's no contact, it's like, yeah, maybe I'm being so stupid and stubborn and maybe it's just I deserve to be deprived of your presence so it can slap me in the face and I can wake up and see that this is what I want (I consider that previous sentence the most interesting of all). But, like I told you, right now it's hard and I'm getting wary and scared of what's going to happen next, who else you're going to call.

Me: Why are you concerned about that?

WW: Because it's humiliating to me, and I've told you this.

Me: If it's humiliating to you, then why won't you stop contacting him?

WW: (Big sigh) Because. I already told you why. It is not about trying to run off with him or get back together with him. It's just... I'm just the type of the person that feels like I've been paying for this mistake, which is still not a three-year A, I don't know where you get that from, and I'm the only one being held accountable and there are two people involved and when is he going to be held accountable? It just pisses me off. I hate that it's like I'm being screwed over and someone else gets away with it. That stuff never sits well with me. I TOLD you this. I TOLD you that's why I can't let it go. It's not like I'm calling him every day or something.

Me: Whether it's daily or weekly or biweekly or monthly, it's still a problem. And you said something that was kind of contradictory again-

WW: I'm sorry I don't map out my sentences.

Me: I'm just trying to point out that you say I don't respect your wishes, but then you say you don't know what your wishes are. Then you have contradictory wishes, where you say you want him to be held accountable, you want him to have some punishment, and yet when I contacted his girlfriend you were saying I shouldn't have done that because now his girlfriend is going to want to punish him. And you don't want that.

WW: Yes, but now he's not going to talk to me. It's something that I need for myself, not you doing it to make yourself feel better. Fine, you got what you wanted out of it and now I can never get what I want. (I sense a lot of selfishness there)

Me: I haven't gotten what I wanted out of it, which is for the two of you to stop-

WW: I'm tired. I'm just tired of it being all about this. This is not what it's about. He is not the issue for me at all.

Me: So, again, if he's not the issue, why do you keep contacting him? Why do you refuse to stop contacting him?

WW: I just told you why. Because it's something I need to do for myself.

Me: Well, IC, you asked us about the state of our marriage and I would say this conversation is pretty much the same conversation we've had repeatedly.

IC: So this could be like just another conversation that's similar to conversations you've had?

Me: I'd say it's the exact same conversation we have every couple of weeks.

IC: And so when the conversation starts, continues, how does it end?

WW: It just kind of ends. I get tired of going in circles. He thinks one thing, I think another. We just do not agree. There's also the other issue of BFF, which I just do not understand at all.


OK, that seems like a good place to stop for now. I will try and transcribe more later. But interesting nonetheless, right?

Did you notice how the only person who has brought up the separation is WW? I actually don't believe that IC asked me to come in and discuss it with the two of them. I think he brought it up and WW asked if I could come to a session and hear about it. That plan isn't working (sorry, I forgot, she said she doesn't have a plan)

I think somewhere in there you needed to say, "You are either my wife or NOTHING to me. There will be no friendship. I am not worried about you hating me if we divorce because I am not interested in being friends. I love you very much, and I very much want you to be my wife for the rest of our lives, but there is only full commitment or nothing at all. It's completely black and white. There is no gray area. I will not continue to be disrespected by my wife continuing her relationship with the man she cheated on me with. I would expect the same from her if I were the one to stray. It's just not fair for the other person."

I've heard Dr. Harley say that men can compete head on with affair partners but women cannot. Your WW seems to be in a lot of pain. I would suggest, "I care about you and want you to be happy. I think I can change so that you are happy with me."

What sort of man would go after a married woman? She probably realizes that her best chance for happiness is to stay with you, but her heart and mind are in conflict. She doesn't seem to be considering the impact of her actions on you. If you give her time and keep on showing care, I doubt she'll move. I suspect she'll figure out that caring for you is the best way for her to be happy.

Sometimes it just amazes me how different men and women are in handling affairs. You are pointing out the illogic of her sentence structures. She must be depressed and horrified at her own actions and trying to pin on you the blame for her own choices. Be gentle with her. She has to come to the realization all by herself that nothing you have done or ever could do would justify an affair. And that may take time. It may never occur, and yet she still could be a wonderful and caring wife who learned her lesson that the grass is not always greener on the other side.

I have to say that I really admire how you are handling this. As a woman, I definitely would support Dr. Harley's views that women cannot compete. I absolutely fell apart, for years. I bet the whole experience took 10 -15 years off my life because of my reaction which lasted from before the affair started until about four years after it ended. I could not have done what you are doing. Your wife has got to at some point look at you and wonder what she is giving up for an uncertain future in LOST WAGES, CA.

Just don't focus on being logical. Focus on care. "I care about you and want you to be happy."

Cherishing

My advice, get another counselor. If your transcription is correct, he let the train wreck and wreck again during the session.

Safety first is the rule of communication. Neither of you were safe to hear or be heard.

Not connecting in communication widens the crack into a canyon, IMO, in marriages.

Did you ask MC directly if your assumption about the session was accurate or not?

Did you really hear what your WW was saying? Could you summarize her stuff without refuting, negating, judging or discounting?

Did you hear your own stuff...hear yourself...well?

LA

I agree with LA...there was NO guidance given in that transcript. It sounds like he just let the two of you sit there and fight...it didn't sound like he did anything to steer the conversation or to protect each other during it.

Get an MC who can do more than just sit there and listen.

You have only read the first part of the session. There are probably at least three parts. I haven't had time to transcribe the rest. I think your opinion of the counselor will change after you read what he had to say. This was the first time that he had us both together and I think he wanted to get some information about how we were interacting and what we say when the spouse is present.

I'm trying to separate W from WW. I heard a lot of fog-talk about how she just wants privacy and this all has nothing to do with OM and it's not an A. But there did seem to be honest reflection about how she is confused and doesn't know what she wants.

This is part of the reason I'm transcribing it. So I can listen to myself and what I'm saying and how I'm responding and communicating. And get the opinions of you all on what I'm saying/doing right and wrong.

BHH,

What I said about the counselor is because we went into MC must the same way you did...and our counselor made sure he was in control of the sessions. By example, he taught us how to set boundaries, do boundary enforcements...he was active in our sessions and emphasized communication in real time.

For instance, when your WW spoke about her confusion, indecision...and you came back with your viewpoint...our MC would have stopped you and asked, "Please summarize what you heard her say first, confirm or clarify, okay? You won't lose your own points...they're yours. They'll be there."

Becoming very present, for clarity's sake, is more advancing than the back and forth I saw in your transcription so far. I didn't see where your MC established ground rules...and the open-ended and conflict-generating question he/she asked boggles my mind...

Could be all this was what you heard. Or did your MC give you a copy of the tape of the session?

I forgot to say a huge THANK YOU! for transcribing your session...I believe it does wonders for building marriages and I believed you were doing it for your own clarity. My questions were to your experience as it was happening, and then, re-happening as you posted your transcription.

I'm not gonna tell you what you're doing right or wrong...I'm going to ask you if you are striving first to understand, then be understood?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Please attend every MC session...that's standing for your marriage. Switching from acting based on possible outcome...to acting from your goal to save your marriage. Big difference. Feel free to challenge your MC to give you his/her best. State, "I don't feel safe right now." when you don't. "I don't feel heard." Whatever it is...open your mouth and own it, aloud.

Doesn't mean no one is listening or someone is attacking. It's informing (which is sharing) your stuff.

You can't convince someone of anything. They choose to change their beliefs. Make sure of your own. Be really sure what you're believing, wishing, hoping, expecting and praying for. Takes awareness for clarity, not rightness.

LA

LA-

I just re-read...and remembered. This isn't their MC...this is his WW's IC.

So of course he's not there to help the marriage. He's there for HER...not THEM. Big distinction most of the time.

Owl...good catch. Oh. Ah. Oops.

My bad.

Our MC did MC/IC...which was awesome. That was my filter in my own way.

Sorry, BHH. I look forward to reading the rest of the transcription as you get it posted.

LA