Here's Part 2 (of 3?) of our session with the counselor. For those that haven't read my whole thread (I guess it is kind of long now) the counselor is one I sought out for individual counseling. After three sessions, WW agreed to come see him individually and did so for three sessions. WW then told me that IC wanted to talk to the two of us about a 'therapeutic separation.' I actually believe it was WW's idea to bring me in for a joint session, rather than IC's.

WW: There's also the other issue of BFF, which I just don't understand at all. But I guess that's between the two of you (BFF and Me).

IC: He slept with her?

WW & Me: NO!

WW: No, he says she encouraged me to have this so-called affair and he's like, calling her an enemy of the marriage now.

Me: She encouraged WW to invite this other man out for lunch/dinner/drinks, encouraged her to get me out of the house so he would feel more comfortable about coming over to be with her.

WW: (shakes head)

Me: She's shaking her head, but these are, in fact, true statements.

WW: What, from e-mails you stole from me? Again. I just don't understand how you can get on this high horse and say 'You're dishonest with me, I can't trust you.' You broke into my e-mail account and read... a lot, it seems like. It doesn't seem like an appropriate response saying you don't trust somebody to then go behind their back and go to their private e-mail account.

Me: What I consider an inappropriate response to trying to build trust is to lie. And I asked you many times to just tell me the truth. 'It's OK, just tell me the truth.' And you continued to try and shield her from her own words-

WW: I didn't think it was an issue we needed to deal with.

Me: When you lie to me, that's an issue. When you say one thing and it's not true, then I don't know when you ARE telling the truth. Even just one time is a problem. But when it continues over weeks... When I say 'Does BFF know about this? Just tell me the truth.' You said 'No, she doesn't have anything to do with this.' Well, that's not true. She has been conversing with WW about this for a long time. And has known about this other person. And, again, encouraged her, 'Here's some things you can do. Maybe go snowboarding with him. Do this or that with him. Invite him out to such and such.' She was involved with this. Even after, she has continued to say 'Don't stay with BHHFSGuy if you don't love him. Don't settle for him. Just do whatever feels right for you and everyone else's feelings don't matter. Just think about yourself. That's the most important thing.' So I don't qualify that as a friend of the marriage because she never said 'you should work on your marriage,' or 'I really think you should see a marriage counselor,' or 'it's more important that you not talk to the other guy to help your marriage heal.' So she's not a friend of the marriage. There's nothing she's done that's helped our marriage.

WW: I'm not doing every single thing she says. I'm not like some mindless robot.

Me: I don't hold you responsible for what she says. I hold HER responsible for what she says. You haven't wanted me to do that. You said you were concerned about 'Well, I don't want you two to not be friends.' What's more important is there's truth & honesty, not 'well maybe you guys can still be friends as long as you don't know what she's saying to me.' That isn't going to work. What's more important to me is our marriage than my friendship with BFF. Because her actions are not the actions of a friend. To me. And she has been unwilling to talk with me about this at all.

WW: It doesn't seem like you asked her to.

Me: I have asked her a number of questions and she has not responded to them.

WW: Like 'I think you're an enemy of the marriage. Please respond.'

Me: That's not a question.

WW: Or something like that, I don't know.

Me: I shared with her my feelings and she completely shut me out on that. And she's been unwilling to ask me how I'm doing. 'What can I do to help you out?' Someone can say 'I care about you' but it's the actions they take that are stronger, in my opinion. You can tell me a million times 'I want to be your friend.' OK, here's a way you can be my friend. Stop telling my wife to contact this other person. Stop giving my wife advice on how best to continue her relationship with the affair partner.

WW: He's not an affair partner.

IC: If I could jump in and clarify something. Both of you have sought outside help to assist in making sense of your marriage or of yourself in it.

WW: It's just, for me, somebody to talk to. She and I have been best friends for 20 years. It's just what we do. She tells me about her marriage, as well. I don't consider it some taboo thing to do for us to discuss our relationships or to tell her about my friend or whatever. Maybe I'm wrong. I have no idea what to think at this point.

IC: I would support you in clarifying. I think that's huge. Because when you're involved in this kind of mishmash it doesn't mean you're crazy. It's like temporary insanity. There's too much confused fallout that doesn't give the marriage the best chance. Because there's no logic. There's opinions. So I guess one of the things I consider even myself as a source of consultation. You both have come individually and kinda done some hard work at pouring out your soul. And it's not easy. What injures a marriage and then the recovery from it is a huge trauma and both of you have been traumatized. The way you think about it and the way you believe about it keeps the trauma going or stops the merry-go-round, the process, so that some healing can occur or calmness can occur so that you can think later. And part of what happens... usually what I see in dealing with a lot of marriages and what I consult about because I'm very interested and I'm not a Divorce Counselor. I don't have on my title 'Divorce, Family, Trauma Counselor.' And if there's any glimmer of hope, even one ounce or breath of hope then I would love to pounce on that and expand it. There's some things in the process of healing that further injures and continues destabilization. If you don't get to stabilization, you can't go to the next step about whether to go to recovery or not. That's just a statement. It's a personal belief that I have.

From the science, some of what we know about successful marriages with 95 percent certainty who will be divorced in two years without them saying a word. Did you know that?

And part of that research comes out of the University of Washington. John Gottman and his crew have been studying marriages for a lot of years. And empirically they can tell us some things that people might have been subjectively writing about. But one of the issues that seems to be... There's two studies on marriage that I trust very greatly because it's not just a person's opinion and it's not mine. It's not an opinion that just because I've been in the business 30 years and I'm over here in this crowd that thinks about marriages this way or that I use this particular book or this particular source. There's two scientific studies that are long-term. One, out of the University of Denver, Scott Stanley and Howard Markman and then the principal investigators have been investigating successful marriages for over 30 years. Out of the University of Washington, Gottman and, before his death, Neil Jacobsen. They have been doing long-term studies for years. They both come up with a similar kind of conclusion about what makes marriages succeed and fail.

They both come to some kind of an agreement that there can be issues or environmental stressors or outside activity that harms and leads to a body feeling escalated. Without people even saying a word. You can know when your heart rate's going up and you can know in a conversation. I don't know about you, but I'm just walking in here today and I want you to know that my body is tensing. This is, from a clinician's point of view, this is not the easiest kind of thing to deal with, is what's going on in your marriage. So your stress has an effect on me. I'm not saying that I take your stress as if I'm responsible for it, but it's certainly, there's an escalation, a danger that a doctor would feel in an emergency room where they're trying to save a person who's been injured in a car crash. So that state of apprehension, that readiness, is part of the crisis. And crisis have both danger and opportunity to them. The danger is they continue to repeat what's not been working and escalate it to a point where the two people aren't growing nor is the marriage. Because when even one person within the marriage is not growing, the marriage can't. And so I say that in all sincerity. I'm not putting blame or shame on either one of you.

So what they found is that there's quite a lot of things that stress marriages. There's quite a lot of things that emotionally upset or destabilize the emotions within one's body and how they think and believe. Most of us think that we're rational. The science has told us we're not. That there's more thinking that goes on that actually pulls toward the negative than the positive, i.e. that's the kind of thing that cognitive therapy is focused around. That, often, one sets up a belief even without supportive evidence. And they believe it to be true.

So the first step is, that they found, the University of Washington said it this way: Before persons can be communicative, they need to calm down. So they didn't teach communication skills. They'd ask people to talk about what's bugging them. Because the skill that they needed was to know when their own body escalated so they could calm it down so they could hear one another.

The second part is the ability to speak non-defensively. When a person accuses somebody of something or judges or doesn't hear, it kills the escalating (I don't think this came out right. I'm assuming he meant that when someone does this, it escalates things). When there's escalation, the body just goes into fight-or-flight syndrome. Either it gets more defensive or more aggressive. Or it denies reality. So speaking non-defensively is another skill level that people learn.

Thirdly, validation. Being able to validate what's real and what's important, and to really validate the other person. To see what they see, hear what they hear, feel what they feel. Even if they don't agree with it, to validate that they're making an attempt to understand and hear it.

Fourthly, Gottman and his crew state that what they term as over-learning: you do the top three over and over and over again.

Markman and Stanley, University of Denver: their conclusions over the long-term just kind of was interpreted a little bit differently but they came up with some similar kind of outcomes. What they found is that there are four weeds that could be plucked from the garden so that the fruit from the garden would have the chance to grow. And they said that negative interpretation had to go. Escalation had to go. Invalidation had to go. Those are kind of negative terms. So I kind of think if there's a negative, what's the opposite? Invalidation sounds a lot like validation, that Gottman and his crew talked about. Escalation? The opposite seemed to be calming down. Negative Interpetation is the way we think. What was the other thing? Did I say four? I missed one. Oh, avoidance. How did I forget that? So the opposite of avoidance would be approach.

So the way I would validate the courage on both of your parts is: not a lot of people walk through that door and face some of the tough stuff you're facing. And I would want to validate that it hurts. And I would want to validate that it had to I would support your marriage is, like, in the emergency room of the hospital room. Unless there's some destabilization, the chances of succeeding are lessened. And so, in terms of therapeutic separation, when I talked to you and read to you some things. Did I read some things to you? (asking WW. Actually, he read some things to me during the individual session I had with him that WW is unaware of)

Therapeutic separation is not invented by me. And there's a lot of people that talk about something of that definition that's not therapeutic. In other words, a separation that's just a way station to 'get me out of here so I carry on and do my own thing' is not a therapeutic separation. It's couched in the way of an emergency room that the person is in a cardiac care unit or intensive care unit. Visitors can't come in as they're in the process of trying to just get recovered enough, stable enough, to be put out on the floor. So, in that sense, the separation is not meant to be an end in itself but a thoughtful, non-emotional way of recognizing what the emotions are that's going on. How each person deals with their emotions is what they need. So that they can be whole and communicate that to the other person as two adults.

There's probably other people that... there's writers... Clinton Phillips, he's dead now, but he wrote on separation. I think there's some textbooks out there that are more subjective. Maybe clinicians that have experienced difficulties with marriages and what they've used when something isn't working to try something to get stabilization back so that they can come back to it and actually do the work later. In fact, I think that you (BHHFSGuy) even offered a kind of a text that... SAA. Does WW know about that?

Me: I left out the book for her to read and look at and-

IC: So do you know that he has consulted some textbooks for information to try and understand what's going on?

WW: Oh, yes. But they all deal with affairs.

Me: That's kind of a problem for us. She believes that she did not have an affair. And, therefore, none of the texts are of any value to our situation.

IC: Is his interpretation of that accurate?

WW: They have all these examples. And I keep saying 'if you can find one that fits my situation, then I'll be glad to look at it.' But I don't agree. I don't see it.

IC: What is it that you don't see?

WW: I just don't think that UNDECIPHERABLE with this person constituted a years-long affair, which is what BHHFSGuy is saying. He's saying I had it for three years. And I just don't understand where you get that.

Me: There are e-mails from her to him from when she wasn't at work to his work account asking him personal things about 'what are you wearing to work today' and things that really wouldn't qualify as something that a innocuous friend relationship would be about.

WW: I don't agree. It seems like asking somebody to take you to lunch or whatever does not constitute an affair. It just seems like the issue is he's a male. If it was a female you wouldn't care, but since it was a male friend that's where you just jump to 'it was an affair the whole time.'

Me: There's certain aspects that make it more than just asking out to lunch. It was asking out to lunch and then not telling me about it.

IC: Secrets

WW: It's secret in that you really didn't care what I did at work or during the day. You never asked me 'What'd you do during your day?' Do you tell me what you do for lunch every single day?

Me: When I've gone out for lunch with members of the opposite sex, I have always told you about that.

WW: Was that the purpose of it? So I know you're not having an affair?

Me: It's a way to help keep myself safe

WW: And that's been your plan for however many years? That was your intention?

Me: I wouldn't say it was a plan. I think that there are times when I would ask myself 'Is this a dangerous place? Am I doing something W wouldn't be happy with? If she found out about this and I hadn't told her, would she be upset with me about this? So, OK, let me not let that happen.' So I will say 'I'm going out to the EVENT with FEMALE CO-WORKER on Friday night while you're at work.' And if that is not something you're OK with, or comfortable with me doing that, you can tell me 'i don't feel comfortable with you doing that.' But you openly admitted that you specifically hid your interactions with OM. It was your own choice and your own doing that you specifically kept it from me. So that, to me, is not OK to me. That's kind of the bottom line, I guess. The continuation of 'I still want to see him again. I still want to talk to him. I don't care if you don't like it, I'm going to do it anyway.' It's very painful.

(LONG PAUSE)

Yes, there's no doubt in my mind that WW is in a lot of pain. I have always wanted to make my W happy, so I agreed to a few things on D-Day that I probably shouldn't have. That I would not contact OM or OMGF before she did. That I would allow her to meet with OM to talk about resolving things and get some questions answered.

Her tears cut deep into me and I want to just make her happy again. But now I question if those tears are manipulative because they will usually get me to back down.

Oh, and remember, it's 'not about him at all' and he's not an 'affair partner' because she didn't have an 'affair.'

She has said repeatedly that she knows there's no future with OM and has even referred to him negatively ('man-******' being my favorite description). But, again, it's 'not about him' and 'he has nothing to do with any of this.' What she's scared of is that I won't ever 'get over' this one mistake and I will punish her forever.

I would like to believe that she won't move, and other family/friends have wondered if maybe she won't. But she's accepted the new job, she's given her letter of resignation to her current job, and she's given her 30-day notice to our landlord. And she has the support of her family and BFF in doing so. I simply cannot believe that she'd take all of that back in the next two weeks. I think she's too proud.

I've heard this from a lot of people now. And as good as it feels to hear it, I ask myself 'If I'm handling it so well, why has nothing changed?' Looking back at my threads, WW is essentially still in the same place as she was months ago, blaming me for all of this, and only two weeks away from achieving her goal of moving away w/o me. Have I just been rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic and people are telling me how nice the arrangement is?

Thanks for that. I will try and remember it. My expectation is that she will respond with 'then don't pull these stunts like coming back to the bed and calling my family behind my back,' but I hope they will be words she can remember and think about later. Mostly I'm trying to show my care through actions and it seems like it's getting through. She has been expressing her thanks to me for everything I do and even showing admiration regarding my workplace efforts.

I know I'm late responding to this, but wanted to address and how I'm half-doing it. First, I acknowledge and accept that she is leaving, but not that it is the end of the marriage. She has even stated that her leaving is not the end of the marriage and she just 'needs space and time' to figure out what she really wants.

After our joint session with the IC, she was concerned about how I was doing and asked if I was upset with her. She doesn't want me to be upset with her and doesn't want me to think this is the end of the marriage.

I am trying to end our time together on a high note. I have been continuing my Plan A efforts and it's been much easier because of her willingness and eagerness to do fun, enjoyable things together. And she's been more active in offering to pay me back for various activities and dinners that I've paid for. She even suggested an activity for yesterday that is something I would generally enjoy more than her. Afterwards I took her out to our favorite restaurant in that city. This afternoon we're going to a food & wine-tasting event in a differing nearby city.

A priest once told me that his aunt married a man who turned into an alcoholic, she separated from him, she always considered herself married, and forty years later he returned to her to die of cirhossis of the liver.

I find that a touching story. Your wife may have quit her job, she may have given notice on her apartment, she may have accepted that new job, and she may move. I still think you are doing what is best for your marriage, and I think this story will have a happy ending. Continue to tell her you care about her. You seem like a really great guy. She may need to give up on you completely and move on with no intent to go back to you before she realizes what she lost. I think you are leaving an impression that will come back to her again and again. It's like the story of the Prodigal Son. You tell her you are sorry to see her go, and you welcome her back if she returns.

Cherishing

I read over the second part of the therapy session, and one thing that strikes me is that you are both invalidating the other person's point of view as to whether or not the relationship with this guy was an affair. My husband told me many times, "Nothing happened." Later, he told me he decided he wasn't having an affair because he didn't have intercourse. That's WS fog.

What I would recommend you focus on in that you are hurt by her continued contact with this guy and then look to her for validation of why you might be hurt -- that she seems more interested in this guy than in you.

I think you have a counselor who wants to have the situation calmed down first and sees therapeutic separation as the only way to accomplish this. Don't get into definitions of affair or not affair. Again, logic. Appeal to her emotions. Tell her you are hurt and upset by the relationship. Bring up the term validation with the counselor. You are looking for validation that your feelings matter, that you don't want this guy around because you perceive him as a threat even if he isn't.

Cherishing

PS. "I've heard this from a lot of people now. And as good as it feels to hear it, I ask myself 'If I'm handling it so well, why has nothing changed?' Looking back at my threads, WW is essentially still in the same place as she was months ago, blaming me for all of this, and only two weeks away from achieving her goal of moving away w/o me. Have I just been rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic and people are telling me how nice the arrangement is?" Answer: She has free will. You may do everything very well, so well that 99 out of 100 women would decide to stay with you. Your wife may be that 1 of 100 who sees an abusive husband where there is a husband who is doing his best to show care.

Here is the third (and final) segment of our session with the counselor last Thursday:

Me: So... we have some problems seeing eye-to-eye, obviously...

IC: That was another item that Gottman and his crew picked up. He found that successful marriages didn't agree. In fact, he says 65 percent of those things that couples were having difficulty with, 40 years later still weren't resolved. It just didn't matter in the bigger picture. There was more needs getting met to offset that one that I would give my spouse a pass on. And they were more in a comfortable equilibrium that they could deal with the issues they had even if they didn't agree with it. And they would save the big battles. And, again, they came back to calming down, speaking non-defensively and validating one another. And Markman and Stanley would go to the ???? that rather than evaluating the other person and saying 'what ways am I avoiding the marriage? In what ways am I escalating? When do I escalate? How? In what ways am I interpreting events negatively? And in what ways am I invalidating rather than validating the person?' And all of those tend to be how am I listening to myself. Clarifying myself. And how am I listening to the other person and clarifying them?

There's some others in marital assessment and evaluation: contextual therapy looks at... it doesn't take the gunpowder labels like affair, alcoholism, or looking at who does what. If you can fill in the blank of what the hot topic would be. They said that trust is built on a formula something like this. There's entitlements over obligations. I'm entitled to some separateness. The obligation is, 'Hmmm, y'know, out of obligation, my relationship, my marriage, I can strain myself even though it might not harm me, I don't do them or do do them because the other person really likes it.' So it's more of an obligation over the entitlement. Oftentimes that balance gets so the marriage seems like the give and take of things, I'm the giver and the other person's the taker. And to make this marriage work I have to give in. And that's not a balance, not a flexible even flow. And so in contextual therapy, their thought is that if forgiveness is going to have a chance, then what hurt needs to be spoken. And even though it may not hurt you (WW) or you (Me), what you do may hurt her and what you do may hurt him. And to at least hear what the hurt is, even if you don't agree with it. And honor enough in the entitlement/obligation to make a sincere effort at balancing it. A request made honored by the other person. When that occurs, it doesn't fix anything, but it kind of tills the ground for growth to occur. So in terms of one reason why, WW, when you and I talked... first of all I would like to validate that I hear how difficult it was for you even to come here for the first time. And I think that what I heard was I want to at least hear from you what's going on, because I heard from BHHFSGuy. And even working with one person, I was still pro-marriage. And if it were just BHHFSGuy's view of what's going on, without your collaborative effort. That would feel awfully like the powerbase is he's telling you and you're not doing it right. And so I wanted to invite you and that was risky, but I sense that we could've been doing the individual dance and just hearing one another for a long time, and not getting the good that could be gotten and further frustrate both of you. So I was listening for what's happening, how's it happening, what can be done differently to maybe ... not the answer ... but tinker with what kind of dance you're in and change the dance a bit. So you not only came one time, but you came more. And I think I asked you about your goals. Or did I? What would your purpose be for being here, I might have put it. And you came back. And then we at the end of the last session asked about 'If things aren't working and positive, what about a structured separation?' And you said to me, I think, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but you'd think about it and possibly ask BHHFSGuy to come in. And I would be open to that. And we're here.

And BHHFSGuy, you came to see me initially. You wouldn't even be coming to see me if something hadn't disrupted your sense of balance. And I heard from you that you've already thought/consulted/talked with quite a few people. And, y'know, I'm kind of down here. I'm not the expert. You really are the experts, the captains of your own ship. And this is your marriage (Me). It's 100 percent yours. And this is your marriage (WW). It's 100 percent yours. What you do with it is your responsibility.

Well, back to thinking about the kind of individual growth, work that both of you need to do. I think reflecting on what happened, how it happened and what you're going to do differently in the future. I don't know what that difference is going to look like. You have some possibilities. You've already thought about moving to Lost Wages, CA (To WW). You all have tried engaging in conversation. You've tried changing some things and trying to hear what your weaknesses were and trying to change them (To Me). Is that ...?

Me: Yeah, I know that I'm not 100 percent successful just because we all have habits and habits can be hard to break. I'm trying to change my bad habits and hopefully begin some good ones. As far as Lost Wages, CA, the moving isn't really a thought anymore, it's happening. She is going to-

IC: I wanted to... Sometimes things happen and we might not have control over whether they happen or we MIGHT have control over it and do things that really aren't good for us and later on we pay the price for it and it feels awful. And you either change it or live with the consequences of it. And over time things can hurt. What I know about most marriages and I don't know this about the two of you. Most people get together for what we know is positive intent. You don't usually get together in a relationship out of negative intent. Maybe some. I can think of one couple I saw that got married because it'd show their mother. It was out of rebellion. 'I'll show you.'

Me: Not a good foundation.

IC: No. So it already was built in some building blocks that... Doesn't mean that the marriage couldn't succeed, just that there was a lot of odds stacked against it. But most people get into a marriage and they oftentimes don't know themself very well. And so out of their own desire, whatever that is, whether it's a physical desire... I grew up in a Baptist home and I figured the only way I was going to be able to have sex is if I got married. Well, if it was just that, it's probably not a real great way to start a marriage. Because it was kind of topsy-turvy and I didn't know myself in a lot of other areas. So how could I be intimate with another person? Oh, I could have sex with them. But how could I have conversational intimacy? How could I share what I believed? What if my beliefs changed? Could I share that?

Marriages grow and they're challenged and they learn from challenges and they repeat them. If something that's hurting either one of the two of you, even though the other person might feel it's helpful to them... In this case, I'll be very specific: You (Me) were hurt by the e-mails that you saw. You (WW) were hurt that he looked into your private account. Even if I didn't put any value judgments on that, I would know that there were some things that both of you have done in the past that hurt. Now what's it gonna take to heal? Is there a positive interpretation? Is there de-escalation? A calming down? Is there validation to offset invalidation? Is there approach?

This issue about whether it's an affair or not is a moot question. Do you know why it's moot? Because you may believe it's not (WW) and you may believe it is (Me). Stay away. Arguing about whether it is or whether it isn't doesn't get to what it's going to take to heal from it. But in the process of getting through that, there's things that hurt.

So the idea of structured separation was only thrown out there as a ... it's not an answer. In fact, I'm a little reluctant. I think that's probably why I haven't written a book. Because as soon as it's in print, it becomes like it's black and white. 'If you don't do it this way, you're dead.' Where I like the idea of being able to say 'How do we collaborate in such a way that we can find ways that we would be in the process of finding solutions rather than telling people what they ought or what they ought not to do.' Does that make sense? And so to have some kind of common ground to start. You have a decidedly disadvantage on WW because you've read the book, you've consulted things. You could believe things about the book that you might not have read or interpreted differently. If the book becomes an issue rather than a resource. And even if I become more of a liability more than a resource, like if I suggest something like structured separation, if that becomes a block to healing then I haven't done a very job because I haven't heard you. And to be able to hear, to be able to calm down...

Sometimes a person has already decided that maybe a separation is in order. If that's the case, I think it's probably wise to put bricks around it. I've known couples that have been separated... I'll be seeing someone this afternoon. And part of the issue is they're having a real difficult time dealing with aging parents who've been separated for over 30 years. And now they're dealing with some confusing issues that are affecting their marriage. And they're having to work through it. So it's not even about them, it's about a couple people that they love very dearly. And they don't want to repeat the process of what separates people, because they see that the separation has just gone like a habit. That nothing is really... that the issues within the marriage haven't been addressed.

So I wanted to bring you here and to say that there's some options and I'm interested to hear other options. If it's working, support it. If it's not working, change it. Look for differences that might make a difference. So how can I be of help to you?

Me: Because we don't agree on certain things, suggestions that I make are not agreed to. So I think it would help to have someone who we're not married to to give us suggestions. Obviously you don't know our whole marriage, everything, etc. But you have a lot of experience and we respect your authority. So I'm very interested in what suggestions you would make to us. 'Here is what I would suggest that is something you should start doing. Here is a couple of small steps that you could take.' You've mentioned some things we shouldn't be doing and I think that's great too: The ways about communication and validation. But I think we could use some advice on 'Here's something you should try doing, based on my experience.'

IC: Let me ask that back to you. Knowing what you know about the way that the marriage has gone and the way you've participated in it, what would help you to make what you perceive to be an affair a non-issue?

Me: If she was willing to write a letter and sign it with me and I would mail it to him and say that 'This is over. Everything between us (not Me, OM). Our relationship was not right and it was not fair to my H and for both of our sakes, our marriage's sake, I'm ending this. Please do not ever contact me again and I won't ever contact you again.'

IC: And what do YOU need (WW) to be able to work on the marriage?

(LONG PAUSE)

WW: I would just need to feel like I'm not being spied on all the time and having this so-called affair thrown into my face and hanging it over my head all the time. It just seems like... y'know, to not feel like I'm being labeled a liar or a cheater or whatever all time. It just feels like I'm being judged all the time. And even requests like the letter is just once again implying that my relationship with him was inappropriate the entire time. I just don't agree and I don't think I could do something like that.

IC: I'm not asking you to do it. That's BHHFSGuy's request. I'm asking you to consider what a request you would have. So that you could think about the marriage, think about BHHFSGuy, in a positive way and grow. What would you need?

WW: I think I would need some space. Because right now the surveillance and just all the talk about the affair and everything just throws me off and I just get so upset about that I can't even concentrate on the real issues anymore, which is 'what is wrong with our marriage?' Instead, it just seems it's always about this one issue. And I need to be able to focus.

IC: If you need some space (WW), and you need a letter (Me), what my suggestion would be, if you're not at that point of agreement... Don't start there. Think smaller. What are some areas you COULD massage that you're changing it, that you could support the person for the effort they're already making. While you're thinking about these others... because here's my thought here: If people try to demand a bigger step than the other one is able to give, they get more rigid and they get more defensive. So to make it a non-issue... I think you get the picture. I don't know that you're ever going to change BHHFSGuy's perception about the relationship that you had with this other man. So my suggestion is don't go there. You don't have to. All you need to do is say 'If my marriage is going to succeed on this obligation/entitlement (balance), I'm hearing that. I will make it (balanced)' Think about what you can do, what you're willing to do. That it's OK even if you don't agree with it.

Let me say that pretty clear again. My adolescents, I have five boys. They don't agree with my stance about whether their marijuana smoking is OK or not. I have my opinion, they have theirs. They've consulted many sources. They've got better arguments than I do. And yet they know my position. And guess what happens when I find a bong? By the way, these kids that I say, now they're 32, 31, 25, 20... none of them are smoking pot right now. But they have. They wouldn't consider it an affair, but I did. Mary Jane was important in their lives and I tried to protect them from it. And I tried to protect the household. Did I get through to them? Nah. But 6-7 years down the road, they may think about things differently. I don't know that in the crisis they can really be clear. Pardon the expression, but there's 'too much smoke.' They're under the influence of something.

So my suggestion is 'Step Back, Think Small, Grow Slow.' But during a period of time, make the issue a non-issue. Don't let it be an issue that gets so focused on that the marriage is unimportant. Think about, for yourself, what you've tried and what will make this marriage meet your needs. That's borrowing from the 'His Needs, Her Needs' kind of thing. And that kind of posits... There's a theory behind that. The theory is that if you just get your EN met, then A have less of a chance of happening. Or destabilization. Or the marriage has a better chance to grow. Well, what we're dealing with here has already happened. We're having aftershocks. Just like what happened in your family of origins. That's already happened. You come into a marriage: 23 chromosomes of dad, 23 chromosomes of mom. They collided and it's as if the whole structure of three generations is fighting for what this marriage is going to look like. So it's bigger than you are. Get clear. Weed out the weeds so you can get clear about the focus on what's most important.

I think that you are two of the brightest people I've dealt with. I honestly really do like conversations with you. And I'll tell you what gets me a little bit bored: repeat performances, the same story. You have such neat stories that if you just get focused on that one, you don't get credit for the beauty. Does that make sense at all? So, now, if you're choosing to do a separation. I would ask you to think about it ahead of time and put some barriers there. I would imagine his fear is you're going to go out of here (WW), you're going to go to Lost Wages, CA, you're gonna be carte blanc, you're gonna be full-blown and you're not going to want him anymore.

WW: No.

IC: That's not what I... That might be his fear.

WW: I know.

IC: Y'know what I think her fear is? That you won't be able to forget. And you will further escalate and engulf her. It'll be like the shaming parent that's trying to catch her doing something wrong and smother her. So y'know what? I think that both of those exist. And so how do you take one inch toward the middle rather than all or nothing? So I would suggest that you think small. And I'm available here if you need me. I would ask you to... don't go away from here thinking you've gotten my opinion on what's going to save... they're just some reflections that you might think about differently. And if you try something different, do it with a purpose and think about it. So I'm available if you need me. Think about it. Call me if you need an individual session. What's it look like in terms of move time?

WW: About three weeks.

IC: OK. There's a chance that you're going to be in Lost Wages, CA. My suggestion is that just for your own clarity, whether you stay or go, you've already started conversing with a therapist. My suggestion is you continue with someone. And my suggestion is you continue with someone. That you could say 'Here's what my goal is. This is what I want to get out of this. Unclarity to being able to clarify myself. I want to be able to be happier in my job.' Those would be individual issues that would be important to address. So if you're going to be separated, it doesn't mean it's the end. If could be, if you let it. Or it could be one of the most positive things that could happen for you, if you look for it.

(To WW) And if you need some help in the Lost Wages, CA, area, I'll see if I know anybody up there. (To Me) Did you need your book back (SAA)? Thanks for letting me peruse it.

END OF SESSION

I left the session feeling pretty good, because despite my directly asking the counselor what he thought we should do, he did not recommend separation. He recommended starting small. And even knowing that WW is planning to separate anyway, he recommended 'putting a wall around it,' 'not letting visitors in' and doing it with a purpose and not as a 'way station on the way out of the marriage.' I think she's heard some good advice from the counselor, but I don't know if she really heard what I heard.

I also had a chance to ask for the NC letter and, even in front of the counselor, where I think she would be most willing to show some effort, she refused to do that and refused to recognize that her relationship with him was inappropriate. I also noticed that when IC asked WW what I could do for her, she didn't actually list things I could do. She listed that what she needed was 'to not feel like' and that she needed 'space.' Those are not direct actions I can take.

I have not brought up any A/M/R talk since this session last Thursday afternoon, but right after we left the session, WW stopped me in the parking lot before we both went back to our respective workplaces and initiated a short conversation. I will try and recount that in my next post.

"And even requests like the letter is just once again implying that my relationship with him was inappropriate the entire time."

I think it is significant that she used the words "the entire time." She's implying it has been inappropriate at least some of the time. I bet she hasn't admitted to herself that the relationship was inappropriate, so how could she admit it to you? That's like my husband telling himself it isn't an affair so he wasn't doing anything wrong because he stopped short of intercourse. Later, he told me, "I thought I was fooling everyone, and the only person I was fooling was myself." I agree with the IC that she need space -- you cannot convince her of what her conscience needs to tell her.

I don't see any point in your snooping. I agree with the IC to just drop it and focus on your relationship with your wife. My IC once told me to stop snooping because "you don't want to be in a marriage in which part of your job is to keep him from having another affair." She needs to end this on her own time. You have the upper hand over this guy who would go after a married woman. Harley has said that a woman cannot handle a man having an affair, but a man can compete.

Cherishing

After we left the counselor's office, we were walking to our respective cars to drive back to our workplaces and WW had a short discussion with me after I pleasantly asked if I'd see her after work. Here are a few segments:

WW: You OK?

Me: Yeah, YOU OK?

WW: You still hate me or not believe me?

Me: STILL hate you? I don't hate you, so don't ask me if I STILL hate you.

WW: But do you still not trust me about going to Lost Wages, CA?

Me: I... y'know, I don't like it.

WW: But do you still think I'm trying to **UNDECIPHERABLE**

Me: No. I-

WW: It's just, y'know, the job makes me miserable. And I know I can... there's an easy way to fix that. That's what I'm doing.

Me: I guess I'm... I know that you're miserable-

WW: That makes me a miserable person to be around.

Me: I am just not sure that... y'know, you've been miserable at work before. And you give your reasons why and so then I suggest if this person and these other co-workers are making you unhappy, let's get away from them and do something different. Or if the hours are making you unhappy. So then we go and change all that, and you're like 'Yes, it's good.' and then 'No, I'm unhappy again.' Well, why? 'Well, it's this one person and they're making things miserable again.' OK, now they're gone. Are you happy? 'Well, no, now it's this person that's making it miserable.' Oh, OK, why don't we change where you're at and you won't be working with that person anymore. Now are you happy? 'Well, no, now it's a different person.'

WW: So you're saying I'm never happy and so changing the job won't make a difference.

Me: You're saying there's an easy solution and all you need to do is go and 'I'll be happy.' And I'm just a little concerned that it's not that easy and maybe that's not... It's like IC said: Is that solution working? It doesn't seem to be. It doesn't seem to be working in terms of 'Well, all I need do is get away from these 1 or 2 or 3 or X number of people and then I'll be happy.'

**UNDECIPHERABLE**

Me: If you want to go be by yourself and be happy, what can I say. That's what you want to do and that's what you're doing.

WW: You seem to think that this is all part of some plan I have and it's not. I'm just thinking maybe I don't deserve to be around you and maybe I just need to figure this out for myself. Maybe I just need to get away from you and understand what I'm missing.

**UNDECIPHERABLE**

Me: But you wanted it to happen (PA)

WW: I didn't plan for it.

Me: One thing IC said was that it's important to have a plan. And you said you don't. So think about it.

WW: It's not a plan. It just seems like it's instinct. And I do need to think about it, but ... sometimes things just happen.

Me: You going is not an accidental something that happened. It's a choice you're making. There ARE things in life you don't have control over. There are things that just happen to us. Like if the river flooded and wrecked our home, that's a situation we didn't have control over. But you leaving your job and moving away is not 'It just happened'

**UNDECIPHERABLE**

Me: I want you to feel free to bring stuff up to me. And I understand that you're wary about doing that sometimes, so I will try and do whatever I can to make you NOT wary.

WW: Would it help if I assure you that this move isn't about leaving you forever? I don't know if it seems weird or **UNDECIPHERABLE** what the needs are that you fill for me and everything. Right now I'm know I'm being reactionary and I'm just a total freak and I don't like being like this. I'm sick of crying.

Me: If you are worried about what I'm going to say in response to what you're going to say, just tell me right off 'I want to tell you something, but I'm worried about what you're going to say. So maybe don't say anything or don't respond at all.' If you don't want a response, just tell me 'I don't want a response. I just want to tell you this.' And you can just tell me. And if I start to respond, you can remind me 'You promised me you weren't going to respond.' And I'll say 'OK, you're right. I promised. I'm sorry.' Because sometimes I try and I fail to break my habits. That's important to me. That you communicate with me. And not hold it in and hide things. So tell me. And if the reason you aren't telling me is because you're worried about what I'm going to say, then tell me 'I'm worried about what you're going to say, but I know this is important to tell you. So please don't yell at me.'

*****

WW was visibly distressed during this conversation and I tried my best to comfort her. But I don't know what the cause of her tears are. Is she crying because she can't convince me to agree with her leaving? She mentioned that she didn't see this as 'the end of the marriage' but thought I was seeing it that way. I assured her that I didn't see it as the end of the marriage, but I didn't agree with it and didn't like it. It seems like she's just trying to say anything to get me to like/agree with her leaving. I noticed how she has even brought up the filling of emotional needs and how she should leave so she can find out which ones I'm filling.

She seems to be at the edge of a cliff, pleading with you to push her off. And you are standing there, next to her, not preventing her from jumping and not giving her any reason to jump. She cannot claim you are being controlling. The reason for her jump has to be her responsibility. If she sees it as hers alone, maybe she won't jump. Her words come through as full of pain.

Cherishing

Your WW's just a mess right now. She doesn't know up from down. Just reiterate that you won't hold this over her forever, but it will take some time to regain trust and put things back together. Let her know that you obviously aren't happy either right now, but she is worth the effort. Let her know that there will be no "friends" if she ends the marriage or continues to contact OM. She is either your W or nothing to you, those are her ONLY choices, but it is HER choice. Stop bringing up the word affair right now. Dr. Harley says, to tell them, I don't care if you want to call it a "bologna sandwich," but your "bologna sandwich" hurt me very much and I don't want to ever experience "bologna sandwich" again. Continuing to contact OM just continues to pour salt into that open wound.

BHHHFSGuy,

I just caught up on your entire thread. I feel for you.

Your WW sounds so much like my exww.

She sounds like a woman with a very needy personality. She sounds like she constantly needs external reassurance to feel good about herself. You'll never make a woman like that happy.

Now, as far as D-day goes: Did you have irrefutable evidence?

When she denies that it was an affair, you can show her the emails you've posted here and how you've seen the messages and her own words about it.

I feel you never adequately gave irrefutable evidence. How do you know it was a PA? Is there an email stating so?

When she insists that she needs closure with him, I suggest you say that she needs to accept the fact that she was simply a romp for him and nothing more, otherwise why would he not contact her or talk with her or leave his GF for her?

Granted, that will likely get you nowhere.

My advice to you? Leave. Divorce this woman and start over. A lesson learned for you on the personality type. You're a christian and she's not. That says a great deal. I think people without religion have no moral compass. Many with religion ignore their moral compass, but at least it's there. If you were Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, or whatever, I'd encourage you to find a woman with similar beliefs and who understands the value of making a commitment to God.

You will be the bad guy in her eyes as long as she remains in the fog. I'm sure she'll wonder why you've gone so dark once you do separate, which is coming soon.

My ex went into the fog and never came out. Granted, I did things to help justify her feelings against me, but she doesn't acknowledge her part in inflicting pain. You've done a wonderful job and have handled yourself as I wish I had.

Honestly, I think you'd be better off with someone new. Your W sounds very immature. She sounds like a person who must have constant change in her life because she's never happy with "normal".

Find someone rooted in reality.

I don't think you should try to save your marriage, but that's your decision to make. You have no children and are still young enough to be with someone else and have a family and do it right. I'd encourage you to find women completely different from your ex.

Understand that I say this completely sympathetic to your pain and situation. I was once in your shoes.

I've had over a year to emotionally separate myself from my ex and see that she was a bad choice for me all along. I'm tied to her because of children, but otherwise would have nothing to do with her. You have a freedom many of us here don't. If you divorce, it's tragic and painful and unfortunate. But you don't have kids caught in this mess and are young enough to have a good start with someone else once you're done healing.

Your DW is dead. You're dealing with an alien. I feel for you.

I hate to be so negative, but no one deserves to be treated like you're being treated. A wayward makes him/herself the victim in every aspect. Nothing you do will be good enough and your feelings don't matter.

It's taken me a long time to finally accept that my exww will never feel she did wrong or acted wrongly. All your WW's words about spying and smothering her are direct echoes from my situation.

You have no kids. Be happy about that and kick this woman to the curb. You deserve so much better.

Love is not enough. It will hurt and you will mourn, but I don't see why you want to save this. I understand your committment to your vows. That is noble that you want to honor them. But don't let them keep you hostage. You've tried hard to save your marriage. She's done horrible things and won't own up to any of the mistakes.

The choice is yours and I wish you luck in whatever path you choose, but I feel you need to just bail out and save yourself. Life is too short to be wasting it on someone who is wreckless with your heart.

Seriously, ask yourself, "Why do I want to save this? What will happen if I do? Would I ever have children with this woman after what she's done?"

I don't want to be a Debbie Downer, but I partly envy you for not having kids with this woman. She reminds me a lot of my ex and experience and maturity tell me that women like her have deep and serious issues that will never be resolved until they get help. They will go through life plowing a path of destruction, oblivious to the damage and chaos they create and blaming everyone but themselves for their troubles. You could be the greatest guy on earth and you will never please this woman.

I know you get encouraged by others here to do things right to save your marriage. I believe you've done the best you could till now and now need to save yourself.

My advice would be different if you had kids, but you don't. Count your blessings.

Good luck.

I'm just wondering- what kind of marriage does she think you guys will have living in two separate places?? That is assuming she's not leaving you forever as she has stated.

Also, does she think you will permanently wait for her or what?

People often ask me 'Does WW think such-and-such... ?' and the answer I have to always give is 'If I knew what WW THOUGHT, maybe I wouldn't be in this situation.' I wish I could really answer these questions, but all I can really do is try and divine her thoughts based on her words and actions. So here are my GUESSES:

"What kind of marriage does she think you guys will have living in two separate places?" : I'm guessing she doesn't think of it as a 'kind of marriage' and doesn't think about 'us guys' at all. She is thinking she wants to be free to do whatever she wants as a single, independent woman unencumbered by her ball-and-chain H. She has asked me on occasion 'Isn't that what you want?'

"Does she think you will permanently wait for her or what?" : Yes, I'm guessing she thinks I am totally and utterly dependent on her and will simply do whatever it takes to have her. That I'm so sadly, desperately in love with her that I will always be around for whatever scraps she throws my way.

Dunno how much of my thread you've read, but she's mentioned that she feels like I think she's my trophy wife. That I only love her for looking pretty and she's so hot I could never do better than her. And/Or that I can't live without her money and just want her to take care of me.

Now that I've finally related the whole session with the counselor the discussion I had with WW immediately following it, I can give you all an update on what's happened since:

WW has continued to be very pleasant to me, expressing appreciation for everything I do. She even suggested an activity for last Saturday that is something I would generally be more interested in than her. Even when we had to wait an hour unnecessarily, she didn't much complain. Afterwards I took her to our favorite restaurant in that area.

On Sunday we attended a food- and wine-tasting event in a nearby city. She agreed quite readily when I presented the idea, despite the fact that neither of us drink wine. And even though we got a little lost, she was upbeat throughout (compared to a month ago when we got slightly lost in a different city). The awkward moment came when we saw a coworker of hers there, who asked WW excitedly about her upcoming move, such as when her last day at work would be and when she would start her new job. That's when I found out for the first time that WW's first day at her new job is 10/22 and her last day at her current workplace is 10/17. Gee, thanks for letting random coworkers know before telling me!

Early Monday afternoon I turned in my application at a nearby apartment complex. I have since been informed that my application has been approved and I have an appointment on Friday to sign the papers and turn in my deposit + first month's rent. My parents have generously given me the funds with which to make that payment. Maybe if WW ever comes around, she can offer to pay them back for this gift.

Later that afternoon I (finally) met with the lawyer for an initial consultation. She explained that because CA is a no-fault state that no reasons are taken into account by the court regarding divorce, separation, etc. So 'marital misconduct' is simply out. And because WW's new job has a much lower salary, there will be no basis for me requesting spousal support. Her moving doesn't change much of anything because it's still in the state and we'd still just split all the assets 50/50. And WW would need to establish residency (90 days) before she could file anything there.

Since I'm planning on pre-emptively moving out and entering Plan B, I asked Attorney what I could/couldn't take and how to figure that out. She said that if WW & I could agree on an equitable separation of assets that we wouldn't need to go to court, use lawyers, file papers, etc. and that I should talk with WW about that.

Although I have consistently told WW that I am not interested in working on separation, I figured it'd be a good idea to get this situation worked out since she's seemingly not doing anything and we're both leaving soon. So on Monday evening I asked her what she was planning to take with her when she moved out. She told me the company condo she's moving into is fully furnished, so she would be taking very little: Her small TV, a VCR, a TiVo, our desktop computer & printer, a couple of media racks w/CDs & movies, her clothes, our newspaper holding rack, and maybe a computer desk. I asked her to write out a list of what she plans to take with her and she said she'd drive over there this weekend to see how much room was available. Also that FIL has offered to come down and help her move.

Since she won't be taking much and I can't fit everything into my new 1BR/1BTH I'm thinking I'll need to rent a storage unit to put a lot of things in (washer/dryer, 2nd bed, etc.) and I'll ask her to co-fund it with me. Do I think she should fully fund it? Yes. Do I want to give her sole control over our marital property? NO. I actually think putting most of our stuff in a storage unit here in town is a good idea because it'll all be 'here' for her to 'come back' to, rather than split up between us in preparation for a D.

Oh, and when I brought this subject up on Monday night, I tried to stay very calm and cheerful. WW seemed very reticent and sad to discuss it. Said she was hoping to maybe take the computer speakers with her but 'those are your speakers and I don't want to take them if you want to use them.' I told her it'd be fine if she wanted to use them since I wouldn't really have a use for them without the desktop compputer. As much as I don't really want her to take the computer, I don't think fighting over petty things would be of any use. She even wanted to make sure that I'd be able to access all our digital music & photos (that are on the desktop computer) via our external backup drive. I'm now in the process of removing my personal web site passwords from that computer in preparation for her leaving with it.

BHHHFSGuy,

I feel for you, bud. I know how much this sucks and how hard it is.

You're being very smart about all of this and protecting yourself.

It may be very shocking for her to get D papers. It sounds like she's never really discussed that as a possibility.

You haven't answered my questions about evidence. Did you have solid evidence to present to her about her A? (email printouts, etc).

Prepare yourself to have her be very nice the next few weeks. My ex and I went on all kinds of dates before she left. I feel she misled me with these dates. She now claims they were so that things would be nice between us after she left. Pitty dates.

Prepare yourself for pitty dates. A lot of what she's doing now is just that.

You feel you're making deposits in her bank. She feels she's letting you down easy.

Just letting you know so you can be aware of it.

You're very smart about the marital property.

Finally, blood is thicker than water. Be prepared to have the in laws turn against you. It happened to me. They stuck by my ex through some really dispicable behavior, never taking a stance against infidelity or pushing her to honor her vows. You may face the same once they feel there's not chance you two will reconcile.

Just be aware of what's coming.

Surround yourself with friends and family. This will be a horrible time for you.

I have read your thread but I missed the part about the trophy wife and her supporting you.

I think she's using that as an excuse to justify her actions.

This may be true unfortunately.

Yet, you have really tried to make deposits into her love bank. Once you go to Plan B that might be a real rude awakening for her- just enough to shock her into some sense.

papaof3v2dot0, thanks for your lengthy first post in my thread. It gave me a lot to think about, which I have been doing. I will try and address some specific points:

One thing I've learned with all certainty through this is that one cannot "make" a person "feel" anything. I know that making her happy is something I've tried to do since we first dated. Looking back, I can see how there were a lot of times when I was too timid to stand up for myself against her wishes of what would make her happy. I foolishly put her own happiness above my own, partly because I have had a need to be a people-pleaser and make everyone happy.

There are also things I can look back at and realize they were mistakes even though I didn't see anything wrong with it at the time. For instance, she convinced me that it was necessary for us to live together before we got married, to 'see if it would work.' It seemed sensible enough to me at the time. But after reading the articles on this site about living together before marriage, I see that was a big mistake and led to many of the problems cited in those articles.

I thought I could "make her happy" and now see that a person is responsible for their own happiness. She will need to come to the realization that I was not the cause of her A.

What I had were segments of e-mails that I captured screenshots of when I logged onto our desktop computer while I was on my laptop. Those e-mails were from WW to BFF and were sent in the past. WW was looking through her sent messages and reading them.

On D-Day, WW asked me how I knew and I told her I had guessed based on OM's actions and words at the party we attended the day prior to my discovery of the e-mails. I did not tell her at that time because the e-mails were still somewhat vague and I wanted to get the full truth from her, not just have her admit to what little I knew. Also, I wanted to determine if what she told me was corroborated by the e-mails. Unfortunately, it wasn't completely. She told me that BFF didn't know about it. Since I knew she wasn't telling me the whole truth, I wanted to find out more by actively letting her check her account at home and watching via the other computer. I eventually gained the password via a keystroke recorder and read everything in the account, which only dates back to Jan. 07. There was basically nothing incriminating from the coworker, who rarely replied to her repeated invites to go out with her. When he did, they were simple, one-word or one-sentence replies. Most of what I know he said were WW's relating their conversations to BFF.

I didn't want to confront her with any of the new and disturbing knowledge I had gained because I knew she would press me about how I'd found out and my main source of continuing information and insight would be cut off.

I did use bits and pieces of the e-mails in my posts at some different message boards. When she found these posts, she confronted me about the text and I admitted to the original screen grabs and that I had 'tried' to get into her account. I do not like to lie and I had a really hard time with doing this. She did not change her password, and I continued to read what she wrote to BFF and vice versa. The big catch, of course, was when she wrote that lengthy e-mail to OM after 11 weeks.

My access was cut off when she changed her password after the night she told me she'd accepted the job and was going to move for certain. That was the night that I finally gave in and told her I would not accept her explanations of 'I never thought anything could happen' because of what she said in the e-mails. And similarly that BFF wasn't just some innocent bystander that had 'nothing to do with it.' I also told her that her statements to OM about 'Don't worry about BHHFSGuy. I can handle him. It's my home and I should be able to do whatever I want.' were incredibly disrespectful and I would not stand for it. Basically that her words to me were completely contradicted by the e-mails.

This issue of whether it was an affair or not was started by her. I never used the term. I was trying to be considerate. I had bought a copy of "Surviving Infidelity" prior to D-Day and I wanted her to read it afterwards. She didn't agree with the No. 1 rule, which was no further contact with OP because 'this book is about affairs, and I didn't have an affair.' Her reasoning was that 'I don't even know how he felt about me' and 'this was obviously just a one-time thing that we both agreed would never happen again.' Thus, the book's advice was invalid.

The other message board recommended "Not 'Just Friends'" by Shirley Glass, which describes emotional affairs and pretty much fits WW's situation to a tee. Again, WW said she didn't see her situation in there at all. When I asked her to take the quiz that scores whether or not you're having an emotional affair, she admitted that, yes, according to the quiz, she was. But... 'I just don't agree' 'There's nothing wrong with a married woman having a crush on someone' 'He's just a friend and I should be able to have male friends' 'We both agreed nothing physical would ever happen again.'

Eventually she found my post on the other board, which was titled 'How can I convince WW she had an A?' Well, guess how she interpreted that: 'How can I force my W to think she had an A, so I can punish her for eternity?' The best post on that thread was the one that said 'You can't convince someone of something they simply refuse to believe.' So I will reference your own quote: "Granted, that will likely get you nowhere." And it's further evidence that you simply cannot educate a WS.

She admitted to me on D-Day the one night that was physical. There was no IC, which is how she rationalized at the time that she wasn't breaking her marriage vows. The Clinton logic, I guess.

Why would he not contact her? Oh, don't you know? Because I 'ruined everything' by contacting OMGF! Now he's afraid to contact WW! It couldn't have simply been a romp, because he was her best friend!!!!! It couldn't possibly be true that the things he said that night were lies!!!

I've thought a lot about all you've written. And these thoughts didn't just start then. I've debated in my mind often during the last few months if my M is worth saving.

I'm guessing that you don't want to see me go through the same pain as you went through, which is to hope for her to come back and be disappointed when she doesn't. But I feel I am in no danger of being hurt much more because I am no longer putting myself out there to be rejected.

Also, I'm about to enter Plan B, where I will be protected from any further emotional hurt by her. I have little to lose now by going to Plan B instead of Plan D. Financially, things will turn out the same whether I give her 18 mo. or D now. So there's little benefit to D her right now, especially since I know I would always wonder if Plan B would've worked.

Which is why I plan on giving her the opportunity to come out of the fog. If that happens, then there is hope.

I think most of us BS know that our feelings run contradictory to common sense regarding infidelity. Everyone generally says that if they found out their spouse was cheating on them, they'd kick them out or D in a heartbeat. And yet it's usually the opposite of that. Hysterical bonding is an example of that. And people outside the M wonder 'why do you want to stay with someone who's so awful to you?' First, no one else has experienced the 13 years that I've experienced with her. And everyone here is only seeing the worst part. Those years of love create a powerful bond. That bond has been stretched during all this, but if I look back I can remember many wonderful memories and happy times and know that they weren't false. They were real. I don't believe WW when she says she was never happy and never wanted to get married. I can look at our pictures from the past and know that there truly were happy times that we both enjoyed. I know I can't 'go back' to the way things were, and I don't want to. I want to start something new and better and based on many of the stories here, I know that we can do that IF we are both willing to work on it.

When the IC told WW that my fear was probably that she would be full-out, carte blanc and not want ever be with me anymore, that was not true. I'm not afraid of that, because I'll just move on and be happy. If she doesn't want me anymore, that's her loss. My real fear is that she will come back and we will have a failed R, maybe because of W's deep-seated issues or my own.

Geez, where's Katie Mae when I need her?

BG,

Your WW's rationalizations sounds just like my ex's. "It was a mistake." You know, like making a right versus a left when going somewhere. When I challenged her about the dates she went on with guys she met on the myspace she said, "Those weren't dates. Dates imply romantic intent."

I usually classify a date as a one on one meeting with members of the opposite sex. I really classify it as such when such meetings are precluded by lots of flirting.

Then comes the physical infidelity. She said, "I did not cheat. I had already decided the marriage was over."

So you see, you can literally decide its over now and go have a romp of your own! You don't need to inform her at all. It's called the new "divorced in my head"! It really saves you tons on legal fees!

Your ex will make you out to be a bad guy. She already has. Will she miss 13 years? Who knows.

I can tell you this: You're mourning and she's not. You look at pics of you two together and you cry or lament. She doesn't feel anything.

She sounds like a woman who needs psychological help, to be honest. Has she ever been abused in any way?

Here's the thing: You're 30 years old. You have no frame of reference in terms of women other than the broken one you have. You haven't seen or been with women who are confident and stable and who don't need the constant reassurance your WW does.

You're a person who likes to please. So am I.

I constantly apologized or justified her behavior to others, mainly my family. "She sick right now. She's having a hard time" became my norm.

Obviously it wasn't all completely one way. She'd buy things for me and we had our weekly dates. But in retrospect, the relationship revolved around her and her desires for a long time. We didn't do things she didn't want to do. I aimed to please and never really expressed my concerns to her about things that bugged me.

So now you find yourself sort of hanging in there while she runs off to be free. I had an ex fiance do the same. She's married to guys since she left and recently contacted me about how good things were when we were together.

Why do I tell you this? Because your WW will likely run off to be free and may be gone for years before finally realizing how deeply she's hurt you and how huge a violation she's made to your marriage.

She has romantic images in her head of what an affair is versus what she did. She thinks an affair involves constantly running around on your faithful, wonderful husband and meeting up with a romantic stranger all the time to have sex all the time.

It doesn't cross her mind that what she's had is an affair or been unfaithful and that the pain of that is huge to you.

You see, the relationship is already dead to her and she simply wants to run away and be free of you. She wants to tell herself you want this as well. She wants to let you down easy.

So now you face the choice of hanging in there and hoping she wakes up and possibly waiting years for that, or you can decide you're young and have your life ahead of you and have biblically justifiable reasons to D and find a woman with values and morals and self respect and confidence.

She's going to react when you cutoff contact.

As far as leaving the spouse over infidelity:

Yes, you're right, most couples try to save their marriages or the BS doesn't jump on the "get the he!! out and don't let the door hit you in the a** on the way out."

It's very rarely that easy. I understand that. I understand that as a man who's been in your shoes. But take it from me, it gets much better.

You'll stand and look back a year from now and marvel at the progress you've made. The worst lies ahead of you. The worst I went through came 2 months AFTER our divorce. My situation was weird, because people don't normally divorce as quickly as we did, but it hit me the worst when I truly found myself without anything. Your hardest times will come when she leaves.

This will be a dangerous time for you and thoughts of suicide are not uncommon.

All I can tell you is that you don't have kids and that that is a huge, huge deal.

So you spent 13 years together, so what? You are 30! You can still date 25+ year old women and start new without baggage! You still have a good chance to create a new and real family!

Baby steps first. You're in shock and in denial right now. Intellectually you may not be, but you are emotionally. What do I mean by this? I KNEW my ex was divorced from me. I KNEW she could go out with whomever she wanted. Yet, seeing her actually do it FELT like my wife was cheating on me. It FELT like infidelity again, yet she was officially divorced.

Granted this was only one month after we officially divorced, which was only 3 months after the whole thing came to light. So intellectually I knew but my emotions hadn't caught up to my brain. They're still catching up, but they're more side by side now. It's been a little over a year.

Like you, I invested years and tears and effort. I had kids with this woman. I loved her deeply and saw myself growing old with her. I felt proud about how well we communicated (I was very wrong there). I found her attractive and wanted her to realize her full potential.

Dwelling on this didn't move me forward. These are the type of things that are constantly on your mind and will be for some time. But they hold you back from progressing and looking ahead.

I really strongly recommend you look for DivorceCare in your area. It helped me tremendously and introduced me to people who understood what I was going through. It also helped me realize I wasn't crazy and that others either felt the same or were going through the same exact thing.

You remind me of a buddy in my group. His ex wanted a D out of the blue. She convinced him to leave the home and "have some time apart". He left the home he built with his brother and with his own hands. She waited for the ink on the papers to be dry and moved another guy in with her. Less than on year later? She's tried to contact him about her mistake. He was hurting badly at first, wanting her back and wanting to reconcile. Now he won't think twice about it and is happy to be single and meeting women and going out.

You'll get there. It will take time. Mourn and grive this terrible loss. Cherish the memory of your wife. She died. The person there now is someone totally new and only looks like your wife.

I only tell you these things because you have no kids. Kids are the glue that keeps families together. That includes families that are broken. I still have to deal with my ex for the next 15 years. That's been pretty much forced by the kids and the fact that I'm not going to be a father that disappears. So she and I need to coparent.

I would have nothing to do with her otherwise and would be living elsewhere. My feelings for her didn't disappear for a long time and she did some things to help completely destroy what little was left. You don't have to interact with her at all once she's gone.

It will be like withdrawl. You've spent the last few years talking to her about your day. Kissing her goodbye as you headed to work. Getting hugs from time to time.

That's gone now and you will feel withdrawl. She will too. I realized that one of the ways my ex stayed connected to me was through arguing. We did it for a long time before I chose to disengage from her rants. She did it to me as well.

You will have nothing to discuss or argue about. The best thing you can do to either move on or get her back is to completly put her in the dark and not answer her calls, emails, or anything. It will be terribly difficult, but you must do it. Same goes with calling her. Don't do it once she leaves.

I feel for you and could go on writing. I'll leave it in a digestible state for now.

I'm happy to speak to you offline if you wish. It helps to talk to people that have walked your path and felt your pain.

She's not going to wake up, bud. She's not going to come back for a while. She's going to feel "free" and happy to not have to deal with your presence. It hurts to come to grips with this fact. The sooner you do, the sooner you can start healing and move on.

You're young. You can still have kids and a family. Drop the cheating adulterous woman and don't look back. Think of her as being dead. Seriously, she's dead. The woman you knew and loved is gone. Grieve THAT woman. Kick the wayward to the curb and count your blessings you have no kids and are still young.

Easier said than done, I know. Read Chrisner's posts on his experience. He handled his pain with great humor, but the things that happened after his D have really been very inspiring and give hope.

Take care.

I had an appointment set up for today to sign the 6-month lease on an apartment and take possession tomorrow. My plan was to pre-emptively move out of our place next Friday and initiate Plan B. I felt it would send a powerful message and get me away from the place while she moved out.

UNFORTUNATELY... I got a call from the apartment manager yesterday noting that they've had an avalanche of applications and asking if I HAD to take the one I applied for. They actually have a larger one available (750+ sq.ft.) with new carpeting at the exact same price ($655/month). The catch is that it won't be available for me to move into until Oct. 19th. I agreed to it, figuring that, in the long run, it would be better to have a bigger place, especially now that I know she won't be taking many things with her.

But this means that I will not be able to implement Plan B until after she has moved out. Logistically, this will be simpler because I won't need to do a 'secret' move-out and weird out my co-workers who'll be helping me; and I won't have to then separately move the other things after she's moved out.

Emotionally, I'm disappointed that I will not be able to move out first. And I'm wondering how best to proceed with Plan A during her moving out. Do I stick around and put on a happy face in front of FIL while he helps her out, essentially Plan A'ing him as well? Or do I remove myself completely from it? I guess it will depend on when, exactly, WW arranges to move out with FIL's help. She may arrange it so that I'm busy and can't be there (I will be busy with work events Oct. 19-21).

I know that the advice is to leave WS with the best possible memories of BS before Plan B is implemented. So any advice about how to accomplish that is welcome. I have a concert lined up for Wednesday, Oct. 10th, but nothing planned after that.