I have refrained from getting too caught up in specific details from the past for a couple of reasons. First, remembering all the hurt from the past is painful and causes me to lose my love for her and consider just giving up and getting a D. Second, I don't want to fall victim to only remembering the bad things, and ignoring the good things. Third, specifics can be very personal and there are a couple of friends and family members who are following this thread and I would rather them not know some things. (Those people, and they know who they are, are strongly advised to not read the rest of this post).

That having been said, here's a quote from WW in a February e-mail to OM that I think sums it up pretty well: "You do not need to be concerned about BHHFSGuy and any kind of 'awkwardness.' I can handle him, and I should certainly be able to do what I want. Remember, I'm the one running the show at my house!"

So, the concept of WW 'running the show' or 'wearing the pants' or whatever phrase is not just some disrespectful judgment of my own or figment of my imagination.

Here's another quote from a later e-mail to BFF: "OM finally took me out to lunch a couple of weeks back (after more than two months of nothing). When he asked me, I acted nonchalant about it, saying 'Maybe...' just to see what he would do. He accused me of playing hard to get (which I was ... it freaks me out that he's so good at seeing through me like that ... he's better at it than BHHFSGuy)."

Yes, it hurts. To be told again and again that everything is my fault.

So would you qualify this statement as a judgment: "I think you neglected her." If I seem defensive about this, it's because I feel as though I've tried and tried for years to make her happy, often at the expense of my own happiness. I never spoke up about how her words and actions hurt my feelings. And now someone I don't know tells me I neglected my W.

I don't want to cause anyone here any more pain, especially a BS. Your situation sounds awful. But please don't confuse me with your WH. I am open to listening to all advice, but that doesn't mean I will always agree with what everyone says. And if someone gives advice based on an assumption that I find misguided, I hope they don't take it personally if I take issue with it. I don't agree with everything everyone says, that's impossible.

I appreciate the explanation and apologize for the pain of your recollecting it. What you said changes my perception. All I can say is something I have told myself over the years: "If you choose your marriage over your own dignity, you will lose both." I am doing very little different from what I did before and during the affair. What I am doing is not agreeing to participate in what is negative for me and not trying to be supportive of (that is, pretending to agree to) what is negative for me. I equated love with sacrifice. The more I sacrificed, the more I thought I demonstrated love, and the less and less respect my husband had for me.

Cherishing

These words of yours are applicable to me. I believed very much the same thing: That the sacrifices I was making of my own personal happiness were acceptable for the greater good of my marriage and to make WW happy. That it would be selfish and unappreciative of me to express any feelings of unhappiness.

I believed that God himself meant for us to be together, because surely he would've provided me with some kind of sign that we shouldn't during the five years we dated. Yet I stopped praying during meals because it made WW uncomfortable. I stopped attending church because it made WW uncomfortable. Would God really want me to give up those things in order to make WW happy?

I assumed that by letting my giver be in charge, so to speak, WW would recognize that and reward me in kind. Instead, I believe it caused her to lose all respect for me. Ephesians 6:33 notes that a husband must love his wife, but the wife must respect her husband. Although I loved WW, she lost her respect for me, and I think that is the main reason why I'm here today. So when I wrote that appeasement got me into this mess, that's what I mean. Even when we were dating, WW would sometimes make me choose between my family obligations and her.

Have you read Dr. James Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough"? I know that it is now two decades old, but I believe most of it stands the test of time. Specifically, it talks about how panic and appeasement, while natural responses (and certainly where I was four months ago), are rarely successful in repairing the damage that has occurred and are usually counterproductive.

Yes, I read "Love Must Be Tough". I have the tapes. I listened to them before we got married.

My needs, my wants, my desires simply were not considered -- and yet my husband has said over and over and over "All that matter is you get what you want." My way of countering that has been to say I will give up anything he views as negative.

I don't think it is wrong of you to give up praying during meals or attending church. Showing a willingness to give up whatever your spouse wants you to give up reduces the ability of the spouse to play what I came to think of as "the chit game". In other words, tit for tat.

I don't know what to say except that I am very moved by your story. It is not selfish of you to consider your needs as well as hers. The fact that she would continue in a relationship with OM when she knows you know it was inappropriate shows how little she considers your feelings. Infidelity is often just the tip of the iceburg as far as inconsiderate behavior, and that's what is seems in your case and what it was in mine.

If you continue in Plan A, right up until she moves, she may be very surprised that you will have nothing to do with her. That can be the start of a win-win relationship. I really like Harley's book Buyers Renters and Freeloaders (it might now be called The One) because it talks about the POJA and how that is critical to the success of a marriage. For most people, the Taker takes over. For us, the Giver was so strong that we were pushed to our limits.

What I have seen with my husband is that he wanted to return to the status quo pre-affair -- in other words, he did what he pleased and I tried to be supportive. He viewed his affair as his "one mistake" rather than the tip of the iceburg of inconsiderate behavior. I wouldn't return to that life again.

For you, this move -- whether she goes through with it or not -- can be the start for you of win-win. I came to think of it as win-win or no-deal. Plan B is definitely no deal. If she returns, or if she doesn't go, I'm not encouraging you to put up with how she has treated you in the past. What I'm saying is not to lay down Harley's rules as conditions for the marriage. I doubt she'll agree to much. You can simply be with her when she is willing to follow the POJA and remove yourself from her when she is not. That's what I'm doing now.

Cherishing

BG,

Your posts scare me sometimes with the similarities to my ex. I went through the exact same thing in terms of church and religion (among other things).

EXWW scoffs now that I want to teach those values to my kids. She claims I wasn't religious when we were married, yet neglects to mention the eye rolling and huffing and puffing whenever I suggested we go to mass. I quit trying after a while and simply settled on being able to do it when the kids were older.

Cherishing, you're projecting a lot of yourself on to his WW. Ironic since BG is the betrayed one here.

Men and women see things very differently. You can connect with the pain she must feel as a wayward of not being cherished (allegedly) or feeling neglected. The attention women get in an affair can be like water to a person in the desert.

Men, I believe, fall for different reasons. My father's affairs were about conquest and the thrill of the chase (his words). He had one main mistress, but tons of others on the side. He cheated on every single woman he's ever been married to, my mom happened to be the first, followed by the mistress, followed by his latest wife (which I happen to like).

I don't believe men stray so much out of an emotional void from something their wife is lacking. There's a void there, obviously, but I don't believe affairs for men result from the same reasons as affairs for women.

That being said, your input is valuable, but I caution you on "projecting".

This forum is BG's place to vent. As it is mine. I say things here I would never say elsewhere. I post emails to my ex here in order to get opinions before I send them. Sometimes they're straight vents. Other times they're simply my feelings of sadness.

I put myself in danger from a legal standpoint by continuing to post here, knowing my ex reads my posts, but the input I provide others helps me tremendously. I don't want other men to go through what I went through and make the same mistakes I did.

BG, I give you a lot of credit. You've managed to keep your dignity in this thing. That's admirable and something I envy since I humiliated and emasculated myself in trying to keep my WW happy. You can walk away with pride with how you've conducted yourself in this mess.

A final thought to you: My ex is an agnostic. She has no beliefs of any kind. She's made it difficult for me to teach my children their religion. I encourage you to keep this very much in mind when in plan B. You likely want to have children someday. You probably want to raise them Christian. How difficult will that be with a WW who rolls her eyes or "feels uncomfortable" because you do things such as pray before meals or attend church.

I really hope Plan B serves to help you emotionally separate from this shell of a Godless woman who is a lost soul. Believe me, there's plenty of them out there who aren't. Your future children deserve someone who will teach them their religion and be an example to them. That's not going to happen with a woman who doesn't value religion. She has no conscience and no concept of the magnitude of her sin and its potential eternal consequences. (If there are any, I'm not God to judge)

But keeps this in mind: A woman who marries in a church and has no belief in God is simply putting on a show for the friends and family. There is no truth to her words or meaning to her of a promise made before God.

Believe me, I'm not the most religious person in the world, but do value it and believe strongly in it's value as establishing a blueprint for children and for yourself on how to live your life. None of that matters to a person without religion, such as your WW. I would much rather be married to someone of a radically different faith than one of no faith at all.

I belive you will come out of this ok. You will be just fine and will look back at her leaving as potentially one of the best things that could have happened to you.

I honestly have no idea if I would try to save my marriage if I could go back in time to the d-day. I really believe I might have followed through with the divorce and done much more to preserve my visitation with my kids. Some souls simply cannot be saved and will forever be lost. I don't mean that in the biblical sense, just as a statement of how some people are incorrigible. I lost time with my kids and material possessions, but I can walk away knowing I was not unfaithful and I did try to be a good husband.

Our big mistakes, BG, Cherishing, is that we as givers ofen neglect our own needs and wants and are in a constant state of appeasement or aplogizing for our controlling spouses. It's a flaw we need to remedy before being happy with someone else. It's ok to occasionally say, "I want to do things this way" or "I don't agree with that path".

Just my thoughts for the morning. Keep us up to speed with how you're doing BG.

Yes, I recognized there was some projecting. BG was using some of the same language as my husband. I see the potential here for his wife to have a completely different perspective on the situation than BG.

As I said in my prior post, I have found that it is important to find win-win solutions. You cannot control your spouse making inconsiderate choices, but you can remove yourself. My mother once said what is now so incredibly obvious to me: "If he swears at you when you are on the phone, HANG UP!"

This must be an increadibly difficult time for you, BG. I want to assure you that sometimes it is darkest before the dawn. Whether she stays or goes through with the move, there can be a break with the past. No more going along with what is negative for you. At minimum, you can remove yourself.

Cherishing

On Friday, 10/5, WW and I went to see a concert in the big city. This was a concert by a band she has liked more than I and she had purchased the tickets herself a couple of months ago (normally she requests that I purchase the tickets because it's too much trouble for her to set up an account, etc.) We actually attended a concert there not long after I discovered her cheating, but prior to D-Day (though she suspected I knew). So I was worried there would be some weird memories or bad feelings, but instead we had a very nice time, didn't get as cold as before and WW bought herself a t-shirt.

The next day, Saturday, WW drove over to the company condo she's going to move into. She wanted to get a look inside of the place to see what items were provided (dishes, bed, microwave) and what were not (glasses, silverware) and how much room there will be for any other items like media racks or a bedside table. She also took a few containers of her things and packed the chains since it was supposed to be snowing there. I used the time to clean out the desktop computer of all my web site passwords and other personal detritus. However, I did leave all our old personal correspondence on there, such as e-mails and chats from our college days. And, of course, our photos. I've noticed over the past few months that she'll look through our online photo galleries on occasion.

She returned around 6 p.m. and we went to go to dinner at a place that had just opened in town. Unfortunately, the wait was about 110 minutes to be seated, so we took off and went to a pizza place WW suggested that has become a regular haunt for us in the last few months. After we got back home, we watched some TV on DVD but were both so tired we fell asleep on the couches during SNL (sadly, the monologue).

I had planned to get some things done on Sunday morning but got up pretty late because it was unseasonably cold and I was tired from the night before. So I had a bit of a lazy day. I had no activities for the two of us planned since we'd just had the big concert outing on Friday night (and another big city concert planned for Wednesday night) and WW needed to spend some time at work. I spent most of the time using our desktop computer, so it was arguably my laziest day of Plan A to date. Plus I hadn't shaved in a few days due to there being little hot water.

Later that night, though, I did some laundry, and when I brought the dried clothes up to our bed to fold them, WW was laying down on her side of the bed resting. This was new to me, as WW has essentially avoided even sitting on the bed when I'm in the room. I didn't say anything, though, and just kept folding the laundry while she stared at me. Eventually I started getting ready for bed and WW stayed there. She asked if I was tired and I said I was just going to lay down until I fell asleep. She asked if I wanted her to leave and I said I did not. I don't want to give TMI because it might read a little unseemly (and CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS that wish to not know even TLI may want to just skip to the final three paragraphs). I did not initiate any contact with WW, just lay there as she looked at me. I did this mainly because of the things WW said back in August when I returned to the bedroom and she left ('I'm supposed to believe you're just going to lay there and not try and snuggle up?') Slowly, slowly s-l-o-w-ly, after a l-o-n-g time of tentative touching on her part, she kissed me on the lips for the first time in ... don't remember anymore. During this time, she asked me questions like 'Is this weird?' and made statements like 'I'm just so confused.' I tried to make it a very safe environment and assured her that although it was a little weird, that feeling was to be expected, and also that I understand she is confused and it's normal to feel that way. After a certain level of SF, she asked if she should go back to the other room to sleep and I assured her that I would not prefer that and wanted her to stay the night in our bed with me, which she did. So the first night in months that she's slept in the same bed with me is somehow the same day I made the least amount of effort in Plan A, was the most unkempt, and followed a weekend where we did very little together. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> The whole thing was definitely a huge surprise (in a good way). And it certainly WAS weird for me because I've spent the last few months not expecting any of my ENs to be met, as you're supposed to do in Plan A, or for WW to expend any effort to do so. So I was a little unprepared for how to deal with this unexpected turn of events.

On Monday, WW was showing even more affection. That evening I invited her to watch TV in our bed with me. She accepted and things went much the same way, but moreso. She again asked if she should go back to the other bedroom and I again noted I would prefer she stay in our bed with me. She said she would need to bring her alarm clock back in and did so.

Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday have all been roughly the same, but with less-and-less hesitation on her part (and mine). And since I have often written posts at night when I've been alone, that's one reason I haven't been able to write this update.

I'm certainly surprised by this turn of events, as WW is now actively seeking to meet my ENs. She's not only being affectionate, but also giving admiration, being interested in my activities and actively offering to pay for things like parking, dinner, etc. I'm not sure what accounts for this, but it all began on 9/19: the day after WW accepted the new job, told me about it, and I revealed to her that I had read most/all of her e-mails and knew a lot more than what she had let on. That was the same day she changed her password and I haven't had access since. Also, the last phone call she made to OM was a one-minute call on 9/7.

We have talked very little about the future, as I do not initiate any conversation about it. I did bring up how I'd prefer that we not split up the insurance and the phone plans (since it'd cost me more money) and that it'd just be easier if she mailed me a check for her share of those bills (and the TiVo she's taking). She was agreeable to that, but noted that she might want to change phone companies anyway, as the service where she's moving to isn't as good.

Despite this week, my plans are unchanged, because she has said nothing about changing her plans. I have an appointment on Wednesday morning to sign the lease on a new apartment. That is the same day as her last day at current workplace, which she confirmed with me tonight. She has yet to make the list of items she's going to take, which is not too urgent since I'm not pre-emptively moving out anymore. I will try and have a very enjoyable final weekend with her, but don't have anything pre-planned since originally I was going to be in Plan B at this point. If I still don't have any details from her after this weekend, I'll probably gently ask about when she's planning to move out. Or is that still too much pressure?

P.S. I can't seem to edit the subject of the original post anymore. Help?

After a certain period of time, it doesn't let you edit your previous posts.

That being said, I don't know what to make of your situation. It is certainly a good sign, and it shows her hesitation to leave you. That being said, going to plan B now might be a risk if things continue to escalate even after she moves out. Plan B, however, is about protecting your feelings, so you need to decide what's best for you. I would definitely try to call up the Harleys to figure out how best to proceed, but if you can't pony up the $180 for an hour with Steve, you can call into Willard's radio program (10-1 central time) and probably get about 20 minutes of good conversation with him. Whatever happens, I want to commend you for doing a great plan A and fighting for your marriage.

BG:
It sounds to me that she wants the option to return to you if and when she pleases. What she doesn't seem to understand -- YET -- is that she will be able to return if and when she is willing to create a marriage in which both are happy. If and when she goes, you might want to focus on your career. I suspect that part of the reason she may have lost respect for you is that she earns more money than you do. One change you might want to implement if and when she returns is that there is no your money and my money. It's all our money.

What exactly changed when you got married? I think Harley's book The One would give you a lot of insight. She seems to think she has a boyfriend whom she can dump and come back to whenever she pleases and under any conditions she chooses. I woudn't express interest in when she is planning to move out. Just let her go.

Cherishing

BHHFSGuy,

I agree w/ Jim.

I think you might want to reconsider going to Plan B at this time. I also think calling Dr. Harley is a good idea.

There was another poster here named MywifeIlove who planned A his WW while she was living elsewhere. He did such a good job of it that when he finally went to Plan B, she dropped OM like a hot potato, and went back to MywifeIlove.

Here are his threads, if you'd like to read them. The last one is where he went back to Plan A after his WW moved out.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...part=1&vc=1

~ Marsh

It strikes me as extremely bizarre that you find this extremely bizarre.

~ Marsh

I agree that she wants the door to remain open. During the joint session with the counselor, when I said she still wanted 'to go and not be with me anymore' she corrected me by saying 'Not anymore' and then after the session tried to convince me that her leaving was not a permanent thing, just something she needed to do because she knew getting away from her job & our city would be an easy way to fix her unhappiness.

I also agree with that. It is a problem with our M that will need to be rectified on recommitment.

Again, I agree that I'll have to get that book. Essentially, nothing changed when we got married. I remember thinking that when a younger friend asked me how marriage was. 'I don't know, it doesn't seem any different than before we were married.'

Wow, bad timing. Now my thread has Plan B in the title right when I'm starting to reconsider it...

Thanks jmwc95. You've been steadfastly following my thread for a long time and I appreciate all the posts you've made.

I will either try to arrange a phone counseling session with Steve or call into the radio program again now that things have veered off the textbook path.

You can always start a new thread with your name as the lead in the title and a generic title overall.

I still think Plan B lite may be in order when she leaves. Perhaps not as dark as a standard Plan B, but a hybrid A/B plan. In other words, you rarely call her and give her attention, but are kind and friendly when she calls you.

Just a thought. Talking to the Harley's may be in order.

Granted, I get the impression that this is all show prior to leaving. I experienced a little bit of kindness and affection from the ex before she bailed. No real SF, but there was some snuggling and affection.

Don't read too much into her behavior. She's going to feel "free" when she leaves and will probably dive head first into trying to contact OM.

Could be wrong. Hope that I am.

I've started a new thread in case anyone on GQII is not viewing this current thread due to the subject being displayed (My revised Plan B Letter)

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/rem...mp;Main=3319601