I get so anoyed at the way so many WS come back, maybe still in the fog, and expect the BS to do all these nice things for them and fill their EN's. I don't get that at all. Why should the BS do anything nice? Do they deserve any of it? This may sound like I take no responsibility for what our situation was like before the A. That is not true. I just feel that there is never a good enough reason to have the A and more than likely the BS's needs were not at all being met before the A either. In my case I was trying to do everything I could to fill EN's while the A was going on. So why should I go out of my way to fill my WS's needs? Shouldn't it be the other way around and why would they think they should get anything?
Confused!!! DTR

DTR:

Simple Solution:

Divorce and go.

No one ever said that recovery was easy.

It's probably harder than breaking up the A.

Maybe you just wanted to vent.

Maybe you need to go to Plan B, to get your WS off of the entitlement seat.

What do you think?

LG

The FWS does not expect a BS to be nice. They are broken, struggling, and aren't thinking about anything except their own pain, unfortunately.

If the BS wants to save the M... and is in Plan A, trying to fill the FWS love bank... I suppose they have to act "nice" as you say. It's part of a plan, even if it's counterintuative.

I don't blame you for being so angry.

Let's assume for one moment your teen age son became addicted to crack. Would you expect him to be able to "do all the work" for re-establishing all the damage he'd done to the family? Or even half the work? Of course not. It would be up to the family to do nearly all the work to get the kid to come to his senses, and view life in a normal way.

Affairs are just like addictions. Waywards will forsake their mates, their children, and often the whole of their inner circle of family and friends to sustain their "drug", their affair.

You, of course, don't have to do this. But if you wish have a chance at saving your marriage, it's as proven a system as there is.

Is it fair? Certainly doesn't seem so, when examined from any angle. Is it fun? No, it's heart wrenching work when you'd just as soon pack their stuff and send them to a country 7,000 miles away. And all this needs to be done when you've been dealt one of life's cruelest blows.

But if you still love your spouse, and want to save your marriage from their choice to have an A, MarriageBuilder's is one of the most successful means by which to do so. And there's nothing "easy" about it. It's hard, gut wrenching work.

Think of it as intervention into the life of an addict, and some of the recommended actions may make more sense.

Best wishes,
SD

The WS certainly does not deserve special treatment. FWH here, only 2 weeks after D-Day of the EA, so still in withdrawal.

It isn't fair, it is horrible to ask my BW to help me get over the withdrawal of who I betrayed her with, but it is the only (best, maybe only) way to fix it. I don't deserve her love, I don't deserve her help, but I NEED her help, and since she wants to save the marriage, since she loves me, she is willing to do it. My withdrawal pain is slowly morphing into an empathetic pain for her, for what I did, extreme sorrow, everything that I should feel. But, no WS is going to start there, and they will get there a whole lot faster if they feel and see the love from their BS. If all they see is anger, hate, judgement, then that makes the OP much more desireable, it validates that they had the right to have the A, all that.

The WS is being selfish in the extreme, the Taker is in control. You have to cater to that taker to an extent to get through to the Giver. The Giver will return though.

down, a wayward "deserves" to be horse whipped on the public square at dawn. However, that will not save your marriage and will not serve your interests in any way.

Meeting the emotional needs of anyone is entirely a voluntary proposition, it is not an obligation. It is something you DO if you want your marriage to work. But on the other hand, if it is to work the WS has to meet your needs and has to EARN your forgiveness with JUST COMPENSATION. Recovery is a 2 way street.


entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

But it is completely voluntary, you don't have to do anything. You are a free woman and can proceed right to divorce court. No one would fault you for that either. But if you make the choice to stay and work it out, don't ****** about it.

I never said I wanted a divorce and I never said it was easy. My point was why shouldn't it be the other way around. The WS did everything wrong and gets their EN's met. The BS puts up with crap for years while the A was happening and now they have to prove how great they are. They were great the whole time. Again, I'm not saying the BS isn't responsible for their portion of the issues.

My WS was out of the fog in a short while and is remorseful. I just don't feel it for him now. I do love him but not like I did before. I always thought we were special and I just don't anymore. I would never D and will work at our marriage. I just think there will always be something missing for the BS, myself. It seems that the WS are the ones that say things are better years later. I haven't heard many BS say that they are thankful for the A and things are so much better. No doubt it is better the the WS because they got their cake and ate it too.
DTR

DTR,

Simply put, the WS does NOT deserve anything...

But ask yourself this, "Do I want to be fair or married?"

As a BS we spend all of this energy trying to negotiate an end to the affair and the establishment of NC. We struggle with overcoming our own feelings and put our own ENs on hold. We Work at attempting to out-compete the OP for the love of our own spouse.

Then, we find that we have succeeded in breaking up the affair and discover that we have to help our spouse recover from the "loss" of their affair partner and the sadness and depression that come with it.

Just when we think that we are about to begin a new chapter we try to discuss the affair with our spouse and find that she/he is still in denial about the root cause of the affair and actually blames US for what they did. The entitlement continues and we still aren't getting anything in return for all our hard work and the changes we have made in Plan A.

Then as the fog begins to clear and the ramifications of what they have done hits the WS, we have another round of depression and sadness to overcome. We still aren't getting much in return.

But if we stay at it long enough, we get glimmers of hope that this is in fact a dark tunnel and there will be a light at the end of it if we can just keep going in the same direction. Little things begin to appear that show us that WS is truely sorry for what they have done. They show affection at times. They begin to show signs that they DO get it and it gets a little easier.

With luck, the WS begins to buy into MB ideas and the road becomes a little less bumpy.

And a year or so later, the BS is still dealing with their own sadness and depression over what happened. We still struggle and wish we could go back and do something differently that would prevent the affair in the first place. This is where actually applying Dr Harley's methods begins to help US instead of just the FWS.

We begin to spend more time being together and doing recreational things instead of talking about and dealing with the affair.

Eventually I suppose, the affair slips into a state of bad memory and we go on with a marriage that is better than what we had before the affair. Maybe our FWS tries to make it up to us in some way or maybe she/he doesn't. Either way, life goes on and we start to be happy with our marriage once more.

It is hard work. It is NOT fair. It shouldn't be that way in marriage. It isn't what we thought life together would be like. It sometimes seems like a monumental waste of effort and time.

But the alternative is to file for divorce and get on with life without the WS and try to build a new life alone until and if someone else comes along. The BS gets to make that choice. YOU get to make that choice. One way leads to recovery of the marriage and life together. The other path leads to recovery alone and a life apart.

You get to pick and decide if it's worth the effort.

It will NEVER be fair. The affair did away with that option.

Mark

DTR,

My BH would say our M is better than it's ever been. We both say it.

Do I still feel terrible remorse for what I have done to BH? Yes. Do I talk about this with him? No.

I am very happy in my M but still struggle with what I have done. Some days are better than others. I just keep working on myself (through journaling, therapy and support groups such as this) in the hopes that I can find peace within myself one day. Somedays it's there, somedays it's not.

My H has no idea, because I do not tell him.

I am not thankful for my M because I had my cake and ate it too... in fact, I find that rather insulting.

If I could do it all over again, I wouldn't have had an A. Period.

Are you using the principles of Marriage Builders? They do not subscribe a one-way street where you meet his need and he doesn't meet yours. That is NOT a MB principle, but a PLAN A tactic that is supposed to only last a couple of months while the affair is ongoing.

Recovery takes JUST COMPENSATION and some very hard work on his part, too. What is he doing to repair the damage he caused?

Like you, I fell out of love with my H when I found out about his affair. He REPULSED ME. ugh! How unmanly! I lost all respect for him and my love is very contingent on the respect i feel. But that love came back as he earned my respect and learned to meet my needs. It CAN happen.

I will never be "thankful" for the affair, but we do have a great relationship today. Not because of his affair, but in spite of it.

Thanks Mark

I really do get that and I know that I'm in a very sad, angry place with all of this right now. Thanks for the insight and kind words.
He is worth the effort and I could never live with myself if I broke up our marriage or family.
The overwhelming sadness and how much this sucks gets to me alot these days.

Your right the affair did away with fair.
DTR

DTR:

I will respond to this.

"He is worth the effort and I could never live with myself if I broke up our marriage or family."

I think Mark1952 put a better answer together for you.

But your WH has already decided to break up your M and family. When he made the choice to cavort with the OW.

I made that choice as well, and like Mel's H, we did the things that needed to be done when we (Mel's H and I) decided to no longer destroy our marriages.

And that allowed Mel and Flamingo to make thier choice to stay, easier.

Your WS needs to start stepping up to the plate.

You can have this type of M for the rest of your life, because, you have taken the penalty enforcement off the page for your WH. By stating that you cannot break up your M and family.

Remember, the WH you have now, is not the person you married. And his breaking that faith gives you everything you need to know about continuing this M. HE either steps up to the plate, or he doesn't. And does the things needed to allow himself to be married to you.

Until you establish those boundaries, you will never have a M that will not be causing you heartache.

Flamingo reserves the right to Plan D me at any time. And there would be nothing I can do about that.

The possibility of her doing it now, I believe is remote, but it still keeps me on my toes....

LG

I can agree with LG on that point -- just stating a point blank "I will never view D as an option" and telling your WS that will not help matters, at all. The most powerful statements my BW ever made to me while I was withdrawn and then in my EA were that she was thinking of D, not being angry or anything at all, just a matter of fact, and that she was trying to figure out how she would raise our kids on her own, where she would go, etc.

Even if the WS is thinking about D, hearing your BS talk about it matter-of-factly, without anger, just with sorrow and hurt, is powerful. It takes the power away from the WS, it isn't their decision on who to choose, it becomes your decision on whether to let him stay, or at least it feels that way, and let me tell you, that takes a lot of fun out of the A.

Melody Lane, Thanks for the response. We are following the consepts and I do think many of the ideas are very helpful. I have a hard time with just compensation. What could anyone possible to the compensate for an A? I different book you read about the WS writing an aggrement and framing it. Didn't we sign an aggrement when we married. Maybe they get a piece of jewelry. I guess I was never that materialistic to think that some bling would compensate for this. I have a really hard time thinking that there is anything he could do that would really compensate for the sadness, anger, embarrassment, etc that you must feel about this for the rest of your life. Yes, I think you can push all those feeling back and fill some of the space with fun events and good times. But does it really compensate for it???

Would love to know what has been compensation for other BS. To me filling my EN's and my filling his should be a given not compensation.
DTR

I think there is some confusion of what 'stepping up to the plate' IS. It sounds so cut and dry when you say that, but, in MY experience, it's not so. The way I see it, my FWH is not necessarily in withdrawal as much as he is deeply depressed, weighted down by guilt, and allowing that to influence WHAT he feels he CAN do in recovery right now. His choices that I must then guage if it is ENOUGH to continue.

This is HARD, no two ways about it. I do not do Plan A, I do Plan Recovery. I have no expectation that PWC is going to read this and SUDDENLY begin to show affection, etc. These things take time. I don't know what others', BS and FWS alike, timelines look like. Maybe the top EN's of the BS were met right away, maybe it took 6 months, a year. That, I think, is what all we BS look for when we ask these questions. WHEN does the FWS REALLY 'step up'? It may differ for each spouse.

I could make demands, but what good does that do. I, personally, am going to begin counseling with the Harley's; for direction, guidance.

edited to add..

I could also choose to stop and leave. I don't think there is anything that my FWH could do to compensate. I think time and his following the MB principles will help me to heal.

If a return to a happy marriage isn't enough compensation, if the man you profess to love comes back to you and meets your EN as best he can and changes his ways to truly love you and care for you, if a happy home and a loving relationship are not enough "compensation", if that won't be enough to make you happy, then you might as well head to Plan D IMO.

If I knew that my BW currently felt that way, if I knew that she would forever hold it over my head, that she felt I needed to compensate her somehow, I wouldn't stick around. There is nothing to look forward to then, only a life of regret and sorrow and judgement and anger.

Believe me, the WS suffers, greatly, in this too, as well they should. But looking to add to their suffering, looking to get compensation from them, that just won't work.

dtr,

One thing you should know about recovery is there is no magic button. If your marriage was a quilt, it could not be "re-made" by stacking the pieces up and throwing spools of thread upon it. It takes a concentrated and calculated effort each and every day to make it whole.

My FWW did not buy into MB principals, nor would she read the books. So I incorporated those principals into my part of the marriage and slowly many of them have become an integral part of our "new" marriage, and she doesn't even realize it. But it has made our marriage much stronger, and I have done the lion's share of the "work".

You have a right to dark days. You have a right to feel exhausted. You have every right to "feel" the way you do. All of us who have been betrayed have felt these same feelings. And what a whirlwind of feelings it is, one hundred thoughts circulating through your mind at any given moment.

Those thoughts bring choices. What you choose to do is entirely up to you. You can let those negative thoughts bring you to a standstill, where you can't go on, or make any more effort to save your marriage. Or you can channel the negative thoughts into positive actions, while at the same time formulating boundaries that are necessary for you to continue your efforts. Then you hold true to your boundaries, and if your WS doesn't step up and do their share, you re-evaluate your options.

It takes a great deal of time to work through the pain and memories of all the shock and sadness. The time passes much more quickly when you are directing your energy towards the results you expect.

Writing and venting your feelings here is a positive way of dealing with the hurt. Regardless of the outcome of your marriage, your efforts to make your marriage whole again will make you a much stronger, self-confident person, better able to deal with the curves life throws at us all. Your efforts will NOT be unrewarded.

Keep the faith!

SD

Compensatin to the BS is a big part of the BS recovery. Yes they do deserve compensation for the worst crime that could be done to them. That is not to say that my WS doesn't deserve to have his EN met and that I don't need to hold up my end of the bargain. I do need to do all of that and want to. But yes the WS does need to compensate the BS in some way that helps with their healing process.

Would love to know what has been that for other BS.
DTR

Ahhhh, this is what I'm doing, too, except my FWH does 'buy into' many of the MB principles, or atleast, has said as much. Yup, that's me right now, doing the lion's share. LIONESS' share.

Frankly, I am also interested to see if any BS respond to what they felt was fair compensation, and if they demanded it. I cannot think of anything more that someone could offer than their love, their commitment, their time . . . themselves.

You feel that you deserve something because you have loved your WS and given him your love and affection and devotion, right? What more can you demand out of him than him giving you the same? Is there something better than love, happiness, fulfilling needs, giving of yourself to the other person? If so, shouldn't that be what we strive for?

I guess the direction I am coming from is that the WS needs to come back and put their full effort into rebuilding the marriage, into loving the BS, into meeting all the needs that they can. They need to give it their all, 100%

110% doesn't exist.