Also, to add, that is making it difficult to go through with my W the emotional needs questionaire, and other things like that, because she is telling me specifically what she wants and what is most important to her, and then that becomes something that I have to do, an obligation, merely because she told me that she likes it.

I know, it doesn't make sense, I know it is wrong, doing nothing isn't better than doing something even just out of obligation. But, actually, for me, what I learned a long time ago, it usually was better to do nothing. I feel like all of my free will gets taken from me, and my actions become meaningless.

I need to grow up, I need to relearn love, I need to get rid of the defense mechanisms I have, I need to get rid of my old, incorrect way of thinking. I need to recognize that even obligations can be acts of love, not selfish acts as I currently consider them. I need to learn that doing things that I know my wife will like isn't a selfish act (yeah, I know, wrap your head around that one).

That's why I was so adamant that I don't want to owe my W compensation, because then to me everything I do will be worthless and selfish.

Look at the EN questionairre as a cheat sheet, giving you the ability to make specific deposits into her LB$. It's much better than guessing, and making efforts that are not as desired as others might be.

Also, bear in mind that a person's EN are in constant flux, and what you get today from her may be significantly different in 6 months. Use the EN questionairre to jump start dialog between you and your BS, and in the ensuing conversations you may uncover some secrets you never knew about your S, that may help you in your efforts to become the marital partner you may not have been before.

Food for thought...

LW2G,

There are things that a WS can do to try to make up for the harm that they caused, should they? Of course, but it shouldn't be done grudgingly but out of true remorse. There is a book called After the Affair by Janis A. Spring, it is very well know.

In the book she provides, I can't remember the exact terminalogy, but a high and low list and gives suggestions. The low lists are things like massages, making breakfast, buying flowers, the high ones are big sacrifices/contributions, and yes, she does have a suggestion about money/property. But really it is the intent that she is getting at, if money was very important to the WS, then a gesture with this is a large contribution to make up for the pain. I believe some of the other large ones are changing jobs, moving, etc..

My FWH and I read this book after d-day 1 at the suggestion of our MC. FWH was still in the A, although I didn't know it. FWH couldn't do, or I should say wouldn't do most of what I asked as he didn't feel he should make up for anything, still very much in the entitled stage. I would say in the last year he has even referred to this list but I created it in the fall of 2003, we all change and he caused a lot more damage after d-day #1.

You are still in the WS mindset, which is ok, it is still early. Take it day by day, one step at a time, read the above book when you have a chance.

Down, I think you are in the anger stage which usually happens around the 6-8 mo. mark, it is perfectly normal how you feel.

After trying so hard the BS does get tired and down. I know I did. As for the specialness part of the relationship, I can relate to that as well as my FWH is my one and only as well. He was experienced when we started dating, he was 19 I was 17, and he had two affairs while married. I used to consider having an A just to see what it was like to have a physical relationship with someone else. I never used to think like that, even after the first A. Yes, these A's change everyone, both to the good and not so good!

Hang in there, it is a rollar coaster ride.

Which definition would suit you best?

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doinf some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

DTR,

re: Feeling "special."

One of the hardest parts of Dr Harley's Basic Concepts to fully understand is the idea of the Love Bank.

We grow up watching TV, reading books and hearing stories of magical, special, overwhelming, irresistible LOVE.

The hero rescues the maiden and they live happily ever after.

The couple who have known each other for years finally realise what they should have known all along, that they were MEANT to be together.

We teach our children that when they meet the RIGHT person, they will know it.

And when we meet our special, one of a kind, made in heaven mate for life, soul mate, we will live happily ever after.

This is exactly the type of thinking that leads to affairs in the first place. Love is something we cannot resist. It is something we have happen TO us. Cupid shoots us with his arrow and we are in love.

Then we find out that the MAGIC is gone and our life crumbles around our ears.

But what makes a wife special to her husband is how he treats her and how he protects her and the marriage. It is forsaking all others for her and only her.

Some time after D-day, a BS has given all there is. Having gotten little in return, they are no longer in love with their (F)WS but are operating solely on commitment to the marriage relationship. Often this is at the point where if contact is discovered one more time or another lie is brought to light consideration of ending Plan A for Plan B becomes a serious option. This is when a BS is also most vulnerable to their own affair and their TAKER is screaming to be heard and demanding equal time from the GIVER. This usually happens around 4 to six months after serious Plan A efforts have begun.

This is where the secret part of Dr Harley's ideas can begin to work. We actually begin to USE them in our marriage and spend less time talking and working for a goal that can hardly be described.

Key: Policy of Undivided Attention...15 hours per week.

Not spent discussing the affair or the relationship or the hurt or the commitment level of each marriage partner.

Spent instead going out to dinner, horseback riding, picnics, long walks at sunset, seeing a movie together, curling up together on the sofa at the end of a hard day...

FUN...RECREATION...DATING...Doing the things that you both enjoyed doing together before you got married, the things that made you both fall in love to begin with.

Last week Dr Harley brought up something on his radio show (10AM - 1PM CT M-F<end of plug>) that I found to be very interesting. He said that the way he came up with a lot of these ideas, including the LB$, ENs etc, was to interview those who had affairs and ask "What did your affair partner do that made them attractive?" It was the answers that he was given that made him think that these are the things we should do for our spouse. We should have an affair with the one we married. We should spend our time making them feel good by actively pursuing them and, in a word, seduce them.

That is what we are supposed to be doing in Plan A...

The part that makes it hard is we want to solve the problems of the marriage as part of recovery, and we need to do that. But after a few months of working so hard, real recovery is illusive because we are focused on WHY, WHEN, HOW and What caused the affair. We both have empty Love Banks.

By beginning to spend time with each other, doing FUN stuff and less RECOVERY stuff that real recovery begins to sneak up on us. By spending time together in recreation, his ENs for RC and possibly admiration get met. Your needs of conversation and affection begin to get met, he becomes more willing to help around the house because his time with you is more enjoyable. You both become more at ease with each other. Your LB$ starts to refill. His LB$ starts to refill and you enjoy being together again.

When problems arise, you can deal with THOSE problems and leave the discussions of the A and R issues for the time with the MC or a set time to discuss those things. You implement PORH and begin using POJA, unilaterally if need be and your marriage and LOVE gets stronger.

This is when the A discussions can take on new life and actual progress can be made toward recovery. By being in love again, the hard part is easier to do because you are both working on it together. This is when issues like boundaries can be tolerated long enough to actually negotiate solutions.

Sorry if this came across as a lecture. I didn't mean it to be one. I just have so little time to post these days and I've been trying to find time to join this discussion all day.

Mark

re: Buyers renters and Freeloaders per Mel's post above;

(BTW,Mel... You getting a bunch of rain down there in Texas from Erin?)

Article about B R & F with Questionnaire (Doc Harley likes Questionnaires, I think)

Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

Mark

Thanks so much, Mark! This is a great little article.

Yes, we are getting hammered down here right now in Houston and are anticipating Hurricane Dean next week. Great for our water sales, though! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mel,

I just hope I don't need any plywood or OSB during the next couple of months. Hurricanes tend to make prices jump a bit.

Stay safe!

Mark

PS What's it doing for Aquanet sales? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I know my attitude is wrong, and I guess it doesn't matter why. Maybe I am still in the WS mindset, maybe I am just a freeloader, I don't know.

Probably too soon to come to these boards and post though. Not much I can offer outside of what not to do. Again, I apologize if I offended or angered anyone, or said things that were totally wrong or triggered anything in anyone. I'll just lurk for a while I think.

LWTG Don't apologize. You are in a different place and all opinions and feeling are valid. I learned so much in the first 6 months of recovery by just reading the boards and was affraid to post. The more you ask questions and read the easier it becomes. It has helped me to know that I'm not alone and that there are people out there that have made it to successful marriages by staying together after the A. Good luck to you. Keep posting and reading.
DTR

Mark, Thanks so much for your response. I think all of it is very true and yes time together having fun with the A pushed way to the back of my brain is the answer. That is hard to do so much of the time. It is there when I wake, lie down and all the minutes in between. Much of the "fun time" together I feel very out of it or blurry. I have been reduced to someone that has trouble focusing and I was not like that before. So many of my strengths as a person have been taken away and I feel that every day is a struggle to get them back.

I need to give everything time to work out. Take the few minutes of fun each day and try to focus on that. Maybe in years to come the few minutes of fun will grow and the hours of sadness lessen.

Thanks again for your advise and understanding it gives me hope.
DTR