mw77,
"betty broderick"? Had some of those fantasies my own darn self. Living with a spouse who gradually pulled away from me while spending more and more time on the OW - made me really crazed.

I'm gonna go "Dr. Laura" here right now. Channelling Dr. Laura .......

"You are committing adultry. That is bad enough in itself. You are setting a bad example for your kids. They are learning that marriage and commitment are less important than 'feelings'. You are teaching them that once they get off track, it's okay to stay offtrack.
A good lesson would be to move far away from this man and his bad marriage, cutting off all contact with him. It will cost you money, it will set you back, it will be inconvenient.
You would then be able to teach your kids a really important life lesson: That it's okay to make a mistake, and to realize your mistake, and to admit it, and pay the price for it, and get back on the right track.
If they don't see you admit a mistake and correct yourself, they will learn from your example."

Okay, back to Bellevue. But you're gonna do what you're gonna do. I hope your married boyfriend's wife doesn't go betty broderick on you. Every crazy violent act in the world is tragic. So don't put me in the category of anyone wishing that on you.

In fact, I feel safe saying that none of us here wish that on you. And if she really is dangerous, the fallout could hit your kids. Another excellent reason to move away. Even if you lived in a motel room in your old state with the kids, you would be okay.

mw77... I can hardly stand to read the back and forth.

You know what the constant is in every unrepentant sin? Confusion. The fog of confusion that keeps everyone real busy while evil does it's business of stealing time, stealing possibilities, stealing healing, stealing the opportunity for those involved to come to the end of themselves and find true truth, peace and joy.

The problem is not that you lack something or others lack something or who did what. None are righteous. Not one. The problem with sin is God is sovereign, his laws are universal and unbreakable and unchangeable. It's not that all parties concerned do not deserve sympathy. It comes down to this:

There is and will never be absolution for sin. For those who try to bend the universe to suit their own ends, God will set things right despite their efforts, because that is truth. Sin is ill-gotten gain and all things gained that way will eventually be paid for, some way, somehow. Sin has a real live cost. It costs those who did it and it costs the victims of it.

So, it isn't others who can't forgive you, forgive him, forgive the ex-wife. All will be held accountable for their own sins. Even me. Christian or not. No matter who condemns what you've done or why.

No one can bend the universe through sin and not reap the consequences. Man nor woman can give you absolution. That's the cruelty of sin. It seems to promise so much, but in the end is 'as bitter as gall'. And it mocks you for being foolish enough to trade God's blessings for it. It laughs in your face.

The people here who seem to be beating you up - they're not 'not' giving you understanding. They're giving you truth and it is not welcome with you, because sin requires mountains of denial and delusion and it often looks like sympathy and righteousness. Your life has become, as the result of your choices, like trying to get across town by way of China. You will eventually reap what you've sown, on this earth or in the next life. You can't mock God and get away with it. No one can. All we're doing is trying to point you in the right direction, but that is not what you thought you bargained for, so you're finding myriads of ways to reject it.

The abuse I suffer and will suffer the rest of my own life will be because my ex-betrayer and his deluded girlfriend will forever demand of me an absolution I do not have the power to give them. But, it sure keeps everyone occupied until the time for repentance and true healing is spent. No matter how much forgiveness or understanding I offer them, they will pay the price and that is out of my hands. That's all the people here are trying to tell you.

The way out of the tangled webs of sin we weave for ourselves is TOWARD AND INTO THE PAIN. You're looking for ways to avoid it. It's like we try to tell ourselves that can't be and Christians especially like to tell themselves that Christ came so that would not be. Christ saved us from death and gave us life more abundantly, but the consequences of our sins remain with us while we remain unrepentant. Christ asked for repentance. Even then we still sometimes face the consequences in this world.

Repentance means to turn away from our sin. You are still determined to benefit from it. That's what's apparent and that's why people are still pointing you in the other direction - the one you don't want to go. You're still saying, "see, look! Their marriage is as good as over. And the wife is coming to that conclusion too, now. And it's so wrecked now anyway. We may as well stay together." The problem is that you were the one who pulled the trigger and now you can't undo that, despite your best efforts.

Your friends, your true friends are the ones who tell you the truth, even when you argue and reject them for it.

Lay down your life and you'll save it. Try to keep it and you'll lose it.

Not ashamed enough to end it, apparently.

You are STILL accountable for your CHOICE to participate in an adulterous affair. You are the catalyst. You CHOOSE that over integrity and honor.

AND, you are modeling those lack of values and principles to your children.

All those pseudo remorseful words of yours do not cancel out your actions and poor behavior. They are just words.

Its what you DO that is tantamount to WHO you are.

mw77, unless you cheated on your own husband, your sin is not adultery. Your sins are coveting... and fornication if you've had sex with him. He is the one you're enabling to commit adultery. Coveting is like attempted theft and fornication is sex outside of the commitment of marriage. That is like theft of affection that doesn't belong to you. It is enabled by deception, which is the cloud of confusion in all this. Deception creates AND MAINTAINS the unfair advantage.

Adultery is like committing a breach of contract, which is why you must divorce before being with another. The contract must be mutually nullified or voided or the party becomes a liar, a cheater, a thief... all things that take an unfair advantage. Deception creates and maintains the unfair advantage.

All this time, in all your actions is the thread of deception (self and other) and that cannot be rewarded, ever. It will keep you locked in delusion until you die unless you face the nature of your actions and deal with them on those terms.

It is wise of you to recognize your need for love, affection, belonging that we all have. It is a God-given need. Truly, you don't want that at anyone else's expense, do you? How will you ever truly, purely enjoy it? How can you ever believe this is a gift from God if you know at the heart it was obtained through deceit and unfair advantage? That's like cheating on a test, but believing you earned the grade. Would you put your life in the hands of a doctor who cheated his way through medical school? You will, as well, lose your power of testimony unless you right your wrongs.

My mother has been married for 22 years to a man who left his wife for her. To this day her husband is not settled in his spirit and seems to need our family to part the red sea (compliment his ego and maintain his pride) to make him feel welcome. To this day it is apparent that she does not have the same value of standing in all of his children's family. And to this day they criticize and justify. And no amount of anyone's acceptance or forgiveness has given rest to their souls.

That is what I'm talking about. Trying to save what you are deluded into thinking you've gained ultimately will not give rest to your soul. And you'll be confused as to why the people around you won't seem to be as accepting as they ought - it isn't them. It will be the unrest in your soul. You'll go through life wondering when people are finally going to 'get on board', but it is not them not forgiving or accepting. It is your soul craving absolution that will never come, because they don't have the power to grant it. You can't possibly want that!

A bit dramatic I'd say.

This is your own guilt talking. Eating you up inside. It won't go away, btw.

Why don't you listen to your conscience and end this destructive behavior. Stop intruding in someone else's marriage.

Again, how in the world is this any of YOUR business? They spent 30 years together MARRIED. And here you are, right on queue, mucking with how much money you as the NEW OW/wife will get.

Guess we're finally getting a glimpse of your REAL motivations. $$$

Looks like your shame kinda disappeared. KaChing!

True story. My mother and father (married 50+ years) belong to a golf club down in Florida. Many wealthy to some-what wealthy retired persons from all over the country. Doctor's, lawyers, engineers, etc. Well...on a visit in 2006 my mother and father took the opportunity to introduce me to many of their friends. Mom ALWAYS had private asides which included all the relevant juicy details... kids stories, 1st wife, second wife, divorced, widowed, affairees, shacking up, girlfriends, gay, etc.. Having been on this website a time I was keenly interested in how she had come to know so much about each and every one so I questioned her on it.

Seems it's typically the men that BRAG about it (which I presume they do to make themselves feel young and alive at their advanced age). They share with one or two other men...who tell their wives and then the whole club knows. In other cases, my Mom can just tell. She'll ask some questions (which you'll get VERY often) and can smell the anxiety from miles away. Sometimes...they can just smell your newly acquired status all over you as you stumble TRYING to fit into social circles you are not equiped for. However, before you go criticizing my mom (or ANY of these respectable ladies)...be aware THEY ALL DO THIS. Your status as Doctor so and so's mistress and now wife will ALWAYS be the FIRST thing these woman say about you to others and they WILL all know. Of course...they will SEEM nice to your face because this will all happen behind your back. You can't escape this and thought you should know now the struggle you are VOLUNTEERING for.

The first wives...the wives that have been there for 30, 40 and 50+ years...despise affair wives. They hate the wives that just stepped in and STOLE some man and deprived the rightful beneficiary of the Golden Years.

All that said...you have no RIGHT to judge them (based upon your standards above). They really don't mean malice and you can't guess what their motives are or what is in their hearts because what it typically boils down to is a WH[b][/b]ORE alert that every married woman in her club is acutely aware of. They don't actually hate you...they just like to keep your kind away from their husbands. How exactly do you think they stayed married 50 years in the first place?


But like everywhere else you can always find comfort with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th wive's club. The self-indulgent, pill-popping, alcoholic, shallow group that still paint their finger nails blue, wear too much yellow gold and need lots of dental work to go along with the unearned boob jobs, face lifts and tummy tucks their new found daddy figures purchased for them.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - When you marry your affair partner you merely create a job opening at the mistress position.

Odd. You’ve been taking the BW’s inventory thereby judging her motives and heart without a second thought.

Lets count em’ up.

To quote you, MW77:

1. He hated who he was with and who he was being with her
2. Each time he attempted to bring up his displeasure, his needs, they were ignored, discounted
3. He knew it was a mistake after he married her
4. In 30 years they had intercourse 10 times. He can count them
5. She was never interested
6. To be verbally abused, to be criticized, put down, not touched, wears a man down
7. The women have a holier than thou attitude that gets them in trouble and they lose their marriage
8. She choose to sleep with a dog who had separation anxiety instead of in the marriage bed
9. She was verbally abusive
10. He did not think she would care one iota that he intended to end his marriage
11. Rather than her losing the man and lover of her dreams, and she has been stalking and aggressive
12. Has harassed him repeatedly and threatened to strangle him at one point
13. She also has out to pasture farm horses, and says she will put them down if he makes her sell the house and it will be murder and his fault
14. They have seen first hand how difficult she is
15. Has been labeled a micromanaging control freak who is a cold fish
16. How can she possibly feel erased and replaced when she was not present in the marriage anyway
17. She as much admitted she was married to her horses instead of her husband
18. His needs were not acknowledged as valid while he busted his butt to meet her needs and give her things she asked for and wanted
19. Her love languages seemed to be material things
20. She spurned his advances
21. She was difficult at best to live with
22. We are not dealing with someone operating on a rational level
23. She has her own personal issues to work through
24. He doesn't like her, and he cannot help how he feels
25. She never wanted him in the first place
26. She would not listen or acknowledge his pain
27. A control freak in addition to being [color:"red"]incredibly judgmental [/color]and legalistic
28. Screaming from the top of your lungs as if you have been hurt badly to make someone come running to see if you have been hurt only to find you are acting out in a rage is ridiculous

And on and on and on ......

MW77,

Maybe if you spent more time really reading here instead of bashing the BW in your situation, you’d learn that DR. Harley (the author of the book you & your cheating MARRIED boyfriend are reading) equates the effects of betrayal of a spouse to RAPE. Yes, RAPE.

So keep that in mind when you criticize and judge her reactions to his betrayal and her demonstrations of indescribable hurt you both have caused her, such as one of your several disrespectful quotes below:


And if you doubt what I’m saying regarding Harley equating the effects of betrayal to RAPE, go here and READ/LEARN: Harley Writes About the Effect of Betrayal - CLICK HERE

You are right about being judgmental, Resilient. Please do not post further, I'm not going to come back to the board as I am trying to delete the account I made.

While I can accept your positions, the name calling is not productive. I am not a ******, nor am I unworthy and of a lesser socio economic status than a 'doctor'. I would have stayed to attempt to listen more but the name calling and bitterness flowing through here is thick and the agenda is to save every marriage at all costs.

Coridally

MW77

The issue is not to save all marriages at all costs. The issue IS you are having an adulterous affair with a MARRIED man.

If the marriage fails (aka ends in divorce), which some do, it should fail on its own steam and not because he and you are having an adulterous relationship.

If it walks like a duck....quacks like a duck...it must BE a duck. It's certainly NOT a beautiful swan.

*****************
Exactly how are you obtaining the socio-economic status of a doctor...hint...it's not med school************

I'm just soooo glad to know you read my post lest you walk around the rest of your adulterous days wondering whether or not you are being judged, ridiculed and ostracized by these fine women you will encounter that seem so nice to your face but always glance a little askew at you and constantly whisper behind your back.

Now you'll know...you'll ALWAYS know EXACTLY what they are thinking and saying.

My gift to you. *******************

Happy trails...buh bye.

Mr. Wondering

I posted on here last October. I got the smackdown in a major way. While I am not proud of the fall out, the man I am with and myself were validated in court.

The defense served me with a subpoena but when the lawyers went to the judge before suggesting a grounds trial, after the judge heard the entire story, he thought a granted divorce and his recommendations for the settlement were very fair.

They never called me as his lawyer argued I had judged his ex because I thought the husband's story was fabricated, as in, so outrageous, no sex for 14 years, etc. the judge made it clear a grounds trial would not go well for her, and put pressure on his wife's lawyer to settle the case so she would not have to go through a grounds trial.
It became at the end, that the story was so fantastic, it had to be true from the judge's point of view, and his wife signed papers attesting to it being the truth. His divorce was granted. The settlement was going to be much less if my partner had forced it to trial, he did not, and gave her much more than what the judge was suggesting was fair under the circumstances.

The facts were she failed the marriage by not fulfilling sexual needs and desires within normal limits, it was said aside from intercourse, there are also many other ways married couples can provide sexual pleasure to one another and she abandoned that area of her marriage.

He also was approached by a client that comes to him at his hospital that knew both he and his wife and had spent many social occasions with them both. She told him she had observed his ex being very verbally abusive and cited several incidences both she and her husband had observed. He was pretty shaken up as that is what his lawyer had been telling him but hearing it from someone who knew them and had seen it, was a realty check for him.

Sometimes, marriages end and there is a reason for it.

Validated in court?

Hardly.

But apparently it makes you feel better.

They both chose not to drag it out through court.
I'm sure she had flaws. I'm certain he does.

But at least his side-action didn't have to testify.

I try not to judge others because I know I have sins of my own as eveyone sins.
My husband told the ow that he came to her because all I did was b____ at him.
We went where he wanted to go, we did what he wanted to do, he spent all the money both of us made on the things he wanted to buy.
It had become my answer to everything "Whatever my Honey wants to do"
I love this man with everything that is in me and would not hurt him for anything. Yes after he started seeing the ow and tell me things like if I didn't call the doctor and demand my money back he was going to break my arm and when he told her one day on the phone in my presents that I was a "[censored]" because I would not go and face down the other man she was living with to get her clothes for her so she could move into our first home with my husband. I guess you could say I became a b____.
When my husband came to me and told me he wanted me to divorce him on the grounds of adultry because it would be faster I once again said " Whatever my Honey wants"
It was my money that payed and she would not even come to court to support him. That was a shame then she could have seen the B____ sit outside the court room and cry so hard the Judge sent someone out to ask her to leave.
And yes I loved to make love to my husband and would have gladly done so every night, but once again it was all about what he wanted and once a week was what he wanted then once every two weeks, then every three or for weeks. But I loved him, love him still and would never have divorced him if it had been never make love again.
Did you Ever thing maybe she agreed to let him say such bad things about her and treat her as he did and in the end not fight him on the divorce because she loved him so much she said "Whatever my Honey wants"
I don't know this for a fact but I do know that no one but a husband and a wife knows what goes on in there marriage reguardless of what a man who wants another woman will say.
One other point: I am standing for my marriage which means I still consider myself married even if a Judge says I'm not. I do not date other men and plan to honor my marriage vows till death.

Validated? To participate in an adulterous affair which has lead to the destruction and the end of someone’s marriage is not something to be claimed as validation success.

If one insists on needing validation at all costs for such an act, then sure, I will offer that person validation ....

Here: Congrats on interloping on someone else's marriage where you can now reap the rewards you've been longing for. $$$$

I wonder how anyone can claim “VICTORY” when they have stolen from another. Sad.

--------------------

He'll be different with you, you're special.
Author Unknown

You two have a "connection," a rapport that he didn't have with his wife. You have more things in common, similar personalities. He's pointed out all the ways that you two are so alike - it's just uncanny. You are so lucky to have met him at this point in your life. He says that he really appreciates you for who you are - and he's the first person to really do that, isn't he? Sure, he said the same things to *her* when he got together with her (and then grew to hate so many things about her), but it's different with you. He couldn't possibly be operating from scripts anymore. And it's so nice to finally have someone YOU can lean on, isn't it? It's hard being on your own, managing a household, and doing it all yourself. All of a sudden, here's this guy offering to help in ways that no one ever did. Knowing all the things you have been longing for and wanting in a partner. He couldn't possibly be hooking into your heart-felt desires and hurt places and pretending to be the answer, because he knows that's where you are vulnerable. He couldn't be pretending to like the things you like, and want the things you want, and be the person you have been looking for, because it's part of his patterns. Just because he did that with the women that came before you, doesn't mean he's doing that with you. He's really sincere this time.

He's told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He's acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and "honest". And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won't do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You're special. So what if he told his wife the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his [censored] with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you.

He says things are going to be different with YOU. Even though he SAYS he accepts responsibility for his actions, he also says that it was really things in HER that brought out his bad behavior. He's not going to be like that with YOU. Sure, he said the same things to HER, but this time he'll be different, because he's told you how YOU are different from her. (So what if he's told other people how you remind him of HER? That doesn't mean he's following the same old patterns, targeting the same types of women. That doesn't mean that he'll be turn emotionally abusive with YOU at some point...) He's such a sweet, wonderful, helpful guy, it MUST have been something in HER that caused him to act badly, right?

So what if he was busy cutting her down behind her back with their mutual friends while he was telling her she was the "best thing that ever happened to him", and that he had "never loved anyone as much as he loved her"? That doesn't mean he still has the capacity to be manipulative and dishonest and cruel. He was just confused, the poor man. And besides, he won't be like that anymore, with the right woman to love him and dote on him. She just didn't give him the kind of attention he really needed. But YOU will. So he'd NEVER do that to YOU.

So what if he didn't leave his wife before he got together with you? It's not like an abuser should spend a few years in therapy, and work on his stuff before getting involved in another intimate relationship, right? I mean, after over 4 decades of emotional abuse and being an abuser, he can get himself fixed up enough to stop harming others in a just few months, with the right woman to rescue, er, "help" him.

And those stories of how his wife emotionally abandoned him... He's just had it so ROUGH all his life! He told you how she didn't even try to keep the marriage together or say that she wanted to try to salvage their relationship when he said he wanted to separate. She was just so unfeeling! The poor man - here he was trying so HARD and all - seeing a counselor and everything! It couldn't possibly be that SHE was so emotionally beaten down by his behavior that she was RELIEVED when he wanted to leave... He couldn't have been emotionally abusive and dishonest with HER too! If his wife didn't trust him, it had nothing to do with HIM and his behavior - it must have been HER issues.

Even if in his past, he DID say, "Some of the problems I bring about by vamping, pumping up the emotional content of a situation. Of course that's easy to do with a new friend. I have a stock of techniques and behaviors, tested. I'm also inventive ... so I pick up new techniques fairly quickly ... It's just I'd rather enjoy the "romance". It comes naturally to me. I enjoy doing it. It's also a head trip for me, with my poor self esteem, to have someone so taken with me. I like the first results, the joyous feelings, the elation, the euphoria, just not where it leads." ... he couldn't possibly still have been doing that with his wife, or even YOU. He has REAL, deep feelings for you. You've even seen him cry and show his vulnerable side. That MUST mean he's sincere, right? He couldn't possibly be using YOU for an ego stroke. Not the man YOU know.

He's just so caring and sensitive and considerate. He's so sweet, rubbing baby oil all over you, making love, sending you little cards, doing all those romantic things. He really does seem too good to be true - cooking, cleaning, intelligent, literate, creative, affectionate. So what if he was like that for the first year or so with her too... before the subtle patterns of abuse started to creep in? So what if all that "wonderful" behavior shifted until he was telling her he loved her one day and then telling others how horrible she was behind her back the next? He wouldn't do that to you too, down the road. She must have brought it out in him. He couldn't possibly be playing the same game over and over again, with you as the next target. No. This time, he'll be different, with you.

So what if he has been incapable of honesty and integrity all his life? So what if he actually admitted to his wife (just about the time you two started up again): "I am afraid of truth-tellers. I have so many lies in my past and present. The truth burns." That couldn't mean that he was telling lies to YOU. After all, he was so HONEST about his dishonesty so THAT'S got to count for something... It must mean he realizes his mistakes and won't make the same ones again, right? The fact that he acknowledges things is so CONVINCING. If he acknowledges it, then he couldn't possibly STILL do those sorts of things. Sure, sure. He had HER convinced too. But he couldn't possibly be STILL lying to YOU. You're special.

Yeah, sure, he might have done those kinds of things in the past, but the past is the past, right? It doesn't have any danger of repeating itself with you. Because you're special. His love for you is so strong and your connection to each other is so different (at least, that's what he has told you, and you know you can trust him, right?), he wouldn't EVER do anything deliberately hurtful or malicious to YOU. He wouldn't undermine YOUR support network and use your friends to hurt YOU. He'd never make snide remarks about YOU behind your back and then make sure you found out about it. No no no. She must have brought that out in him. But you, you're special.

Besides, he's been in therapy. That must mean he's sincere, right? He wouldn't possibly be using the whole "therapy" thing as a cover-up to make himself look better because his reputation got damaged after the fiasco with his wife. He couldn't possibly be using contrition, and the "I feel so bad about myself"-line to get sympathy and support! He couldn't possibly be going after women who have a strong sense of personal responsibility because he knows how to manipulate that to try and get them to feel responsible for HIS sick feelings. He couldn't possibly be seeking out active, intelligent, dedicated women, so that he can PUNISH them when they don't direct all that energy to HIM. Just because he has engaged in such manipulative behavior in the past doesn't mean he would be doing that NOW. Not with YOU. You're SPECIAL.

He's so contrite and sincere about "working on his issues", he couldn't possibly be lying about that. Just because he has a history pathological lying to himself and others, doesn't mean he'll be that way with you. Besides, if he has deceived himself so completely that HE doesn't know it's a lie, then he can't be held accountable for it, right? He can always claim that he doesn't have good "memory" for things in the past. But don't worry. He won't use that sort of deception and evasion with YOU. You're special.

The poor guy just made bad choices before (you). Sure he made mistakes, but if his ex doesn't want to have anything to do with him, and now think he is mentally ill, it must be because SHE is unstable - I mean, look at how amazing and kind and charming he is with you... He couldn't possibly have been like that with HER TOO... He wouldn't be using stock romance "lines" on YOU.
This time, it's REALLY love. You're Special.

Sure, he did a *few* things in his past that were unkind, but he needs to be forgiven for HIS behavior, (after all, she drove him to it), but HER mistakes and reactions to his emotional abuse, were unforgivable. But things will be different with you. He won't think YOUR mistakes are unforgivable. He won't apply a double-standard to YOU. He won't expect YOU to be perfect and subtely criticize you when you don't measure up to his standards. You're the one who is going to change his life.

And speaking of unforgivable, of COURSE he can't forgive her for doing things that *hurt* him (he's so deeply sensitive, you see) - but he couldn't possibly have lied about the things he said she did. He couldn't possibly have "set up" situations so he could cry foul... He wouldn't have ENCOURAGED her to do things so he could later claim that he was hurt by her... And, well, even if he DID, maybe do that, he certainly won't do it with YOU. You're too special for that. Any time he tells you he's happy for you and he encourages you to do something, he'll REALLY mean it, with YOU. He won't create a revisionist fantasy of your past so that he can insist you did things to hurt him as a justification for his cruelty to you. He won't secretly resent you for not devoting all your time to him. Even if he DID do that with her, he won't do it with you. Especially after he makes all those sacrifices for you. He won't secretly be dependent on YOU for all his attention. He won't be more demanding of you and your time and resent you when you don't give it all to him. Not THIS time. You're SPECIAL.

He's such a nice guy, he won't "help" you (especially unsolicited) and then have an unstated hidden agenda like he did with all the others. He's going to claim his right to be "selfish" now, because he's been so USED from all the excessive GIVING he did in the past that nobody really appreciated. The poor guy. He's never taken time to be selfish in the past - not even when he was sitting alone in his room, sucking off his hurts, or using other people. That wasn't selfish - that was just "acting out". But he's better now. Don't worry. He won't use his new-found right to be "selfish" against YOU. No. He really is a changed man, with you. With you he will give unconditionally.

It's no WONDER he behaved so badly! Look at how his wife was always hurting him, oppressing him with her refusal to live her life solely for him, expecting him to be honest with his feelings and actions, when he just wasn't ready. And besides, he just can't handle confrontation, you know? And like, she's just so SCARY when she's upset (it's just so unbeCOMing when women display any anger!) that he HAD to act that way. She actually raised her voice at times! Can you imagine? Nobody else is allowed to have anger and raise their voice except HIM. Because, like, he can't DEAL with it, and he shouldn't be expected to! He couldn't possibly have been projecting HIS issues on her so that someone else could have his anger FOR him, or so that he could get angry with someone other than himself! He couldn't possibly have been DELIBERATELY hitting all her hot buttons to hurt and upset her so he could lay blame. And, well, even if he DID do that for years, he won't do it anymore, with you.

And if somehow you accidentally do things that "trigger" his old abuse patterns, he'll be so sweet in telling you how you are doing things that remind him of her, so that YOU can change YOUR behavior. After all, you wouldn't want him to start acting emotionlly abusive again because of something YOU did.

And you don't have to worry about that, because you'll never get upset with him, and you'll never challenge him to be honest or to accept responsibility for his actions. SHE did that, and it was "controlling," but it'll be different with you, because you know better. And you won't need to worry about calling him on his behavior anyway, because he'll NEVER lie to YOU. He'll always be completely honest and upfront with you. He won't have to "forget" any promises he made to YOU. If he is inconsiderate, it won't be DELIBERATE, with you. If he lied to her or anyone else, it was because they drove him to it. With you, he won't withhold information, or distort or omitt the truth. He won't break fundamental relationship agreements with YOU. He won't HAVE to, because you'll be right there validating him 24/7, supporting him and telling him how he's so CLEVER and BRAVE to have escaped such a horrible relationship, and how wonderful it is that he is working so HARD to overcome his terrible past!

And it's a good thing he's not going to do any of those things he might have done in the past, because then you won't have to worry about forgiving him. You see, she REPEATEDLY forgave him for the lies and the accidentally-on-purpose "mistakes", and all that did was make him feel bad about himself - that she could forgive and he couldn't. Wasn't that AWFUL of her to make him feel so bad that way? So she DESERVED to be punished even more. And she should NEVER have shown any guilt when he manipulated her. It just caused him to hurt her more. He told her it was "like blood in the water for sharks" for him. She should have known better. YOU know better. But then, he won't be manipulative and passive-aggressive with YOU. He'll be different with you. You're SPECIAL.

And sure he made her work at the relationship when he wasn't really trying, but that wasn't being dishonest - he just didn't know what he really wanted, so that made it OK to put the burden of the relationship responsibility on her. Sure he admitted that he wanted her to make him the first priority in HER life, but he wasn't willing to afford her the same consideration. But that wasn't one of his patterns. He won't do that with YOU. Besides, he admitted his dishonest behavior after he abandon her, so that makes it ok. It erases everything. His slate's clean. He even said he was sorry, months later, so that shows how sincere he was. He couldn't possibly still have been interlacing the apology with blame. He's not STILL acting manipulative and projecting issues.... and well, if he is, he's only doing that with HER because of their history - he wouldn't do that with YOU.

And it's so sweet how he still talks about how much he cared for his wife, how much he did for her out of love. Sometimes, he even talks fondly of his treasured memories of her, of how she "helped" him (when she wasn't hurting him, the witch) - that must mean he's a deep, sensitive guy, right? Maybe you can even "help" him to forgive her and heal from his terrible past... Just like SHE thought she could "help" him.

And besides, he did so many NICE things for her and all those other women. That should count for SOMETHING, right? It's not like he was emotionally abusive or manipulative ALL the time. So it kind of cancels things out, right? It's not like he HIT anyone or anything. At least the things he did didn't leave any VISIBLE marks. Besides, he probably just made honest mistakes, that's all. He couldn't have actually got off on seeing them hurt and crying. He wouldn't have LAUGHED condescendingly in someone's face while she was crying. Not the man YOU are involved with. HE certainly doesn't remember doing anything like that - and HIS memory is inviolate.

He's told you how different he feels with YOU. How different he IS with you. How healing your love is. How much he NEEDS you. What a wonderful person he thinks you are. How important you are in his life. How much he values and appreciates you, and misses you when you are not together. How amazingly transformed he feels now that he has finally met someone as SPECIAL as YOU. So what if he told her the same things? He really MEANS it this time, with you. He's a changed person, (this time, for REAL) with you. You're special.

You don't need to talk to any of his ex's to find out what he was REALLY like, because the past is the past, right? You couldn't possibly learn anything from their experiences, because he's not going to be like that anymore. It couldn't possibly be that they have anything valid to say. Besides, you trust him to tell you the WHOLE TRUTH about his past (as far as he can "remember" it), right?

And he's such a sensitive, caring guy, he REALLY does wish he and his wife could be FRIENDS now. He can't understand why she would have NO desire to have any contact with him, NO desire to have anything to do with him - after all he did for her, after what they had. After all, SHE is the one who did unforgivable things. He's so uncomfortable around her now, because of how much she hurt him. He wouldn't STILL be projecting HIS issues on her, and implying that they are HER issues... After all, he's a changed man.

But you don't have to worry. He won't PUBLICLY divulge YOUR insecurities or deeply intimate things you told him in confidence to other women - he won't betray your trust - like he did with her. No matter what happens between you and him, you'll ALWAYS BE FRIENDS. You and he will always be able to work things out. So what if he said EXACTLY THE SAME THING TO HER (and all the others) too? It'll be different with you. You're special.

He won't wait a year or two before he starts in on YOU. He won't then use his knowledge of YOUR insecurities and emotional hot buttons to deliberately hurt YOU. He won't start using psychological warfare to couch his deliberately hurtful actions in social plausibility with YOU. He won't flirt with your close friends and use any attraction they might have to him, against YOU. NO. He won't tell you that you just weren't meeting his needs or living up to his expectations. He won't expect you to read his mind. He won't try to make it look like YOU are the reason he is unhappy, and YOU are the cause of your relationship problems. He won't set you up to get upset with him so that YOU are the one who breaks it off with him, (or you get so angry with him that he HAS to break it off with YOU) and HE looks like a martyr (AGAIN). So what if he made all the same promises to her? Just because he was following some of his old patterns when he got involved with you, doesn't mean he's going to follow through on the rest of them. He's CHANGED now.

You're special. Just like SHE was when he was with HER. Just like they ALL thought they were.

YOU are the one who can "fix" his wounded ego. Your relationship with him will be So Much Better than his last ones, because you're special! With you, he'll be honest and straight-forward for the first time in his life. He won't become cruel or passive-aggressive. He won't play headgames anymore. He'll stop using and discarding people like old kleenex. He won't be rude or unkind or disrespectful like he was with those other women. HE LOVES YOU SO MUCH, HE'S NOW A CHANGED MAN. (Changed for the better, of course.) Not because of therapy. Not because he's removed himself from relationships and taken some serious time to get his [censored] together. Not because he's done any REAL work. Not because he's actually admitted to his real motivations, or made a single sincere change.

He just needed to find the RIGHT woman to "save" him from himself and "help" him become a better man, and that's YOU.

You just KNOW he'll be different with you. Right?

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Interesting. Here you are despite your word above back in October 07, claiming your ill gotten prize in the face of so many thousands of betrayed spouses who are not unlike the ex-wife in your situation. Much like her, their indescribable hurt doesn't matter to you.

I guess your insensitivity in posting was to be expected.

Why wouldn't you be proud of what your actions have resulted in.

You are/were the OW in someone else's marriage, admittedly. You lamented here there wasn't anything wrong with what you've done by having an adulterous affair with a MARRIED man because, afterall, his wife neglected him.

So why not proud. MW77???

If you think about it, anything we do in life that we KNOW is right and good (deeds of honor and integrity) where we've accomplished something that has changed the lives of other human beings, well those results would never cause us not to be proud (aka to be ashamed).

I would suggest there is good reason you feel great shame.

What Dr. Harley wrote to a poster (oneoftwo) on Affair Based Marriages:

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oneoftwo:

I've read through your original question and the responses you've received, and almost to a responder, they are warning you about what happens to relationship that originated as an affair. I have counseled hundreds of these couples and am presently counseling couples that married after an affair, and I can tell you from first-hand experience, and their own unsolicited comments, that if they had put the same effort into their marriages, they would be happily married to their original spouses today.

While it's true that there are happy marriages that start as affairs, they are in the minority. Only about 5% of all affairs end in marriage, and only about 1/3 of those marriages survive the first five years. You probably have one chance in 100 of turning this marriage into a successful relationship, and you're off to a terrible start in spite of your love and commitment.

I have a theory about why marriage after an affair is so unsuccessful, but the fact that they're unsuccessful is well documented. My main contention is that for whatever reasons, those who have affairs tend not to follow one of my cardinal principles for marriage: The Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse). They tend to do what they please without considering each other's feelings. While that may not apply to both members of the relationship, it almost always applies to at least one of them. Your friend's affair with another man in the beginning your your relationship is evidence that she's not thinking about your interests.

I try very hard to keep these marriages together, in spite of the fact that there is such a low probability of success. If I thought I would fail, I wouldn't be wasting my time. And yet, I have had very little success. I keep thinking that I will eventually find a way to succeed.

There are so many obsticles to overcome. In addition to failure to follow the POJA, there is also a marked failure to follow the Policy of Radical Honesty. They tend to be incredibly dishonest, in spite of the fact that they start out thinking they can look right into each other's very souls.

But there is one other issue that is terribly relevant to your situation: Blended families. I read a research report recently that claimed that only 15% of all marriages with children from another relationship survive for 25 years (on average about 50% of all marriages survive for 25 years). Again, from my perspective, the culprit is failure to follow the POJA. Instead of making joint decisions regarding the children, unilateral decisions are made. This ultimately leads to fights and constant turmoil. After the children are grown, however, the conflict does not end. In many cases, advantages continue to be given to children by the natural parent at the expense of the step-parent.

I'm sure that your counselor has been encouraging your wife to negotiate with you so that you can reach a joint agreements regarding her children, but to no avail. And I've experienced the same thing. In spite of a blended family couple's willingness to follow the POJA when I talk to them, when it comes to a decision that will affect the welfare of their children, the commitment is broken.

The advice you have been receiving on the Forum focuses attention on your affair. I've written quite a bit on that topic, and many of the responders have read it. In general, I warn people to avoid an affair because if the very same problems you are facing. And if a vast amount of research and my own professional experience can be trusted, it happens to 99% of those who try to make an affair last.

While it's very unlikely that you will follow my advice because you're in love with "Jane," leaving this relationship, and restoring your relationship with your first wife is the wisest choice. But if you want to know how you can be the 1% that thrives in spite of the obsticles you face, my advice is that you both learn to follow the POJA with every decision you make, including those with the children. If those decisions are made with mutual care, you may be able to figure out how to make the rest of your relationship work.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.