If I label/diagnose my spouse as p/a...or narcissistic...or whatever latest buzz word is out there...

then I don't have to examine my own motives and behavior.

If I think I might be some disorder....

well...then I can blame my disorder...instead being responsible..unless of course, I go to a psychiatrist and get proper diagnosis and treatment...meaning I am taking responsibility for my own stuff.

I have a problem with the therapist who diagnoses the patient's spouse without meeting the spouse...

I don't care how good the therapist is...it's still filtered through a biased source.

So of course...there are p/a's running around without diagnoses or treatment.

All anyone can do is focus on their own stuff. And diagnosing others is simply a distraction...

Just kidding...much more problems..in the past but now resolved..with being AGGRESSIVE AGGRESSIVE... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

It's interesting, though..the solution seems to be the same...VOICE THE ANGER right away rather than letting it build up...

Yep.

I think on every thread that has ever discussed PA bahavior in a spouse the advice is to actually focus MORE on your actions and less on the PA persons actions.

OWNING more of your own. So I don't see the benefit in saying "I think my spouse is PA". It is heck of a lot of more work.

I do agree some might misapply the "label".

My FWW did go to MC and IC with me. I expressed my concern about her PA behavior and the MC agreed. So in my case it wasn't a diagnosis through hearsay.

My son had to go to IC for a while and his IC picked it up in him right away. He exhibited the exact same traits as my wife.

If you do not agree that it is real or it has a place here I humbly disagree. It is as real as alcoholism and IMVHO can lead to problems in recovery.

This thread was started because someones FWS admitted to being PA but Mimi I guess doesn't think it is real disorder.

PA behavior hinges on the premise that you must gain the others persons agreement before your perceptions are valid.

This is simply not true.

If you feel unheard you don't HAVE to "catch" or "prove" that it was deliberate...all you have to do is allow your perception [completely subjective and not subject to negotiation] to dictate your actions and choices.

You are then free to say...I feel unheard so I am not going to continue to invest in this conversation until I am convinced it will be worth my time and attention.

Assertive behavior can be compared to gravity. It doesn't MATTER to gravity if you stepped off the cliff deliberately or by accident...the result is the same in any case.

The person who falls prey to PA behavior reveals themselves and their own areas of ill relational health as surely as they reveal the PA...if you simply MUST have the agreement of the other party or be hamstrung in indecison and self doubt then THAT is your area of vulnerability.

I don't disagree that its a real disorder.

I just think that too many people on these boards diagnose their spouses instead of themselves and use it to justify their own stuff.

I can believe it's a REAL DISORDER.

I just don't know much about it, can't relate to it, can't understand it IS ALL...

And furthermore...

If I MUST have your agreement for my own relief than I probably have my own bag of tricks as well, no?

Emotional blackmail?

AO?

DJ?

Resentment? [oh spouses of PAs are hugely resentfull...perhaps because they are being emotionally dishonest themselves? If they fail to "prove" that they have just cause for complaint but they still feel offended anyway...now what?]

noodle - I did not believe that my perceptions were wrong. I KNEW he was hurting me. I was just proceeding from the false assumption that he did not *want* to hurt me. I thought the problem was that I was just not making myself understood and so kept trying and trying and trying to explain.

Once I stumbled upon the P/A thread over on In Recovery and got the right reading material, I finally understood what was up and THEN I knew how to deal with this.

That's when things got better. That's when I could put a screeching halt to my part of the P/A dance, which I did IMMEDIATELY once I was no longer wandering around stupid and blind to what was wrong and thinking it was just that he didn't understand.

That's why I do bring this up whenever I think I am seeing it because I know what an enormous difference it made for me. Like day and night. It ended a lot of my own suffering and I hope to do the same for other folks if I can.

Mimi, if you really want to understand P/A stuff I'd suggest you read "The Boomerang Relationship" link in my sig below (it's not very long), and watch *Gaslight*. That will give you a good start.
Mulan

Noodle,

If you have something to say to me, you can say it directly, you know.

WHAT?? Are you saying I don't have a right to feel that way? Well, I guess if you think that, then you must be right. Maybe I don't. I still feel mad, though, so I guess I must just be crazy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Oh Frozen...that's just the passive agressive in me coming out to play dontja know.

Mulan,

I DO believe that PA requires a certain reaction in order to be a successfull [rewarding] behavior.

Let me give you an example...

A invites B to dinner and B agrees to go but gives A the impression that there was a certain reluctance in agreeing.

Now A feels uncomfortable because their perception that B seems reluctant is being challenged by B saying..oh no you must be imagining things.

So they go to dinner and B is short tempered and "punishing"...A has the strong urge to apologise but isn't sure why.

There are two ways it can go from here...

Either A will apologise and continue to try and appease B

or

A will say...you know what? I didn't really enjoy the time I spent with B so I don't think I'll be investing any more.

Over time B has had contact with many people...the people who become prey are the people who read their lines correctly.

This suggests to me that BOTH parties have boundary problems.

noodle - If you think of an adult P/A person as having the emotional maturity of a sneaky ten-year-old who is determined to defeat and outwit Mommy, you will understand how this dynamic works.

P/As aren't looking for appeasement from a partner.

They are looking for ANGER from a partner.

When they can provoke frustration, anger and even rage in their partner (parent), they have WON.

They've won because the partner (parent) is now a horrible nasty ANGRY b*tch/b*stard and the poor poor little P/A is just their victim.

They've won because when you're a victim, nothing is your fault and you don't deserve any consequences from your partner (parent).

They've won because they clearly have all the power in the relationship and the screaming frustrated ANGRY partner (parent) clearly has none.

Ah, life is good.

Isn't it?

This is why coldly and directly confronting them about their behaviour AND THEN WALKING AWAY is usually very effective, especially when done on a very consistent basis.

It takes the anger and confrontation out of the picture and lets the partner take back his/her share of the control.

The P/A is left all alone holding the empty P/A bag under the glaring spotlight of cold hard truth, utterly robbed of being his/her partner's victim anymore.

Life is better. Not always good, but better.
Mulan

How about requiring them to police their own behavior or walking away permanently?

That is my basic point.

Trying to manage someone elses personality disorder is less effective in maintaining your own quality of life than requiring them to manage it themselves if they want to keep you invested in the relationship.

I disagree that refusing to get overtly ragefull denies them their victimhood...I have yet to see an example of that in action. On the contrary the scenario you describe seems adversarial in the extreme.

Most PAs in my observation feel JUST as victimized by being exposed as they would being abused.


That is the primary difference between the two scenarios I described...not that A couldn't have used the tactics you refer to but that I consider those tactics to fit into the first category of person A settling for managing behavior that falls beneath their standard for whatever reason rather than requiring person B to improve the behavior in order to have access to them.

The person with the power in any situation is the person who is least invested or willing to walk.

PAs are notorious for being deliberately uninvested partners so no matter what verbiage you use they will still win the power struggle if you will not leave and they are not required to change.

What your description basically focusses on is "catching" or exposing the PA behavior...which is imo the LEAST usefull tool at anyones disposal and can become a DJ very quickly and easily.

There is some denial in that approach as well. A refusal to accept that this person is NOT willing to give you what you ask from them. An unwillingness to make decisions around the fact that the PA in question is not willing to stop the activity you find so intolerable that you must protect yourself from it in some way. That they are unwilling to invest in you and unwilling to pull their load and unwilling to meet your standard and create an intimate environment.

So now what...now my plan is to let them know I am aware that they suck while they are sucking?

What's the point of that?

How does that either protect me or contribute to my investment or fullfillment in the relationship?

Incidentally...some things I HAVE found helpfull when dealing with a PA...

Keeping the emotions steady

Using encouraging language

Countering the inherent negative attitude and outlook with an enticing positive

Enforcing the consequence without being unloving

I am not a passive agressive and I'm not married to one but one of my children is PA and so circumstantially I am unable to take my own advice...lol...I am IN FACT responsible for not only managing but also training and then releasing this person into the world.

My observations about PAs I have known.

They have tended to be very sensitive individuals who are easily hurt or bruised.

They tend to go to "anger" as a first, second, and possibly last resort.

Provoking a PA to anger is a bad idea.

They have a low frustration threshhold.

They have a duel image of themselves...grandiose or very dimished but have little patience for developing a REAL identity turning instead to fantasy.

They are generally imaginative and enjoy conversation [they seem to be good at it too].

Admiration is VERY motivating for them.

They have a better than average ability to "read" other people.

They are observant and conscious of power dynamics.

They tend to be timid and dislike conflict...they also tend to become very frustrated with themselves for that timidity and embarrassed that they were not more agressive or less fearfull.

Just a few observations of my own...nothin' official.

Never in my experience has calling a PAer on some behavior actually served to correct the behavior and can if done badly create obstacles in that person correcting it themselves if their sense of dignity is corroded.

Better, faster, and more effective has been to build their self respect and their belief that they ARE better than what they have been doing. That they can reach the pinnacle. What exactly they need to do to reach it. That it's worth it to reach the pinnacle.

I think there's a difference between being parent to a P/A child, and being partner to a P/A spouse.

P/A seems to me to be a way of feeling empowered without standing up to be shot at.

A child is still in the process of formation, and the P/A behaviour is likely to be down to a feeling of relative weakness vis-a-vis parents/family. Therefore it's still in a parent's gift to support empowerment of the child rather than subversive forms of pseudo-assertion, by encouraging confidence and responding helpfully to signs of healthy assertion. There is a power imbalance in this - the strong giving to the weak - but that power imbalance is implicit in the relationship as a natural function.

A spouse is an equal partner in the relationship; the model assumes that both parties bring adult powers to the table. If one partner feels underpowered in the relationship because they lack basic skills in healthy adult assertion, then they need to find a way to re-educate themselves - essentially to do the work their parents should have helped them with.

For the non P/A spouse to step in and do the parenting work is disastrous to the relationship, I feel.

Therefore it seems to me that pretty much all the non P/A spouse can do is set a boundary - "it is not acceptable to me for you to behave this way.", then stand back and let the P/A sort out the problem by themselves.

Which, as a rule, they won't do until the 'cost' is catastrophic, and often not even then. So I don't think there are many solutions - just ways for the non P/A to avoid the temptation to act as a parent and 'fix' the problem.

I'd be interested to know if anyone's P/A spouse has ever successfully cured themselves?

TA

Noodle and Mulan,

Thanks for scribing some really great information on this thread.

As I've come to understand it, you need a second party for P/A behavior to be USED. What I have been trying to express is that I now have to try to understand how I am part of the dynamic, so that I can change my behavior. I never said anything about changing PWC.

Another thing that noodle spoke of, and that I have read in numerous places, is that people with P/A tendencies respond very well to admiration. Mimi hit this one dead on when, very early on, she expressed that PWC may have a great need for admiration. He most certainly does, and I have most assuredly been practicing that.

The other side of that coin, however, is when the PA does not get this praise, they begin to think negatively, of themselves, of the one who USED to praise them, of the world sometimes. Negativism is a major trait.

I'm beginning to see that I am a manager, a boss, and this has been my function in the R for some time. I now have to understand how to work WITH this behavior, of mine, so that we can live in harmony. I need to find more constructive ways of communicating what I need, instead of becoming ANGRY. This just fuels the dynamic.

I am taking MY responsibility in this.

Isn't it one thing to apply admiration to a child in order to redirect budding P/A tendencies, ie as a temporary tool to achieve a permanent end, and having to administer admiration chronically to an adult?

If an adult 'needs' a lot of admiration in order to avoid the consequences of their own character weakness, at what point does that admiration become manipulation? How can they ever learn to cope with situations where admiration is impossible, and censure inevitable?

Toleration of a spouse's foibles is part of marriage, but at what point does the boundary get crossed, into taking responsibility for someone else's issues?

And if they're that susceptible to admiration, how open does that leave them to the wiles of an OP?

TA

Let me see if I can explain that admiration as motivator better.

The negativity is key here.

Use a positive instead to enforce your standard rather than lambast them for the failures you expect them to make.

So instead of saying "I *KNOW* you did this on purpose you aren't fooling me!!" "I knew you'd be down in the muck"

You can say "I KNOW you can do this respectfully and if you are willing to take responsibility here I will accept that and we can move on." [for a child you would then need to give them instruction for exactly WHAT they need to do to take responsibility]

Or in a work environment "I know you can put it in 5th gear when you need to I have seen you do it...I want to see that level of effort from you...you are a key person in getting this done"

That is subtle admiration that asks the person to TRY and reinforces a good self image...that they matter...that they are capable...that their participation is important...that they are being counted on.

You have to stop them in their tracks and require a change of direction and of attitude and you do it in a way that protects their dignity.

If they are unwilling to do that then you have to show enough respect for them as an adult to take them at their word and believe that they are not willing to live up to your standard.

Then you make decisions of your own.

I do not understand the profit in this combative and adversarial AHA I GOTCHA! ...I can't imagine it would do anything BUT reinforce all of the defensive traits.

I think this is why I blurted out that I felt like I was dealing with a child. From what I understand, it is important to accentuate the positives, so that they can begin to see themselves in a positive light, positive respect, instead of seeing themselves as an insolent child/man.

I'm not giving admiration or appreciation for things that he does not do. I give admiration where it is due.

Recently, I admired him for hashing things out with his supervisor, explaining more clearly what is asked of him in the work environment, and being honest about feeling overwhlemed by 'extra' requests, on top of his already very busy schedule.

I was blown away by that. He NEVER would have done this in the past. It was out of his character to challenge someone, or even to DEFEND himself.

I also admire him with what he is doing with our son now. He is really stepping up with him. I admire that.

SL,

You are admiring in the past tense only and offering ZERO encouragement. There is nothing childish about telling someone who is filled with destructive doubt..."I know you can do this...I believe in you".


What if a person NEEDS that admiration and encouragement in order to rise to the occasion?

You think less of them for it?