Noodle,

For me it was like boiling a frog. The whole PA dynamic didn't just start out on a full boil.

The water was nice and over time it finally started to boil.

To this day I look back and wonder was it always like that?

There is no denying my culbipility in this.

I think like many others though, before coming to MB, boundries were foggy if there were anything. POJA didn't exist and none of the lessons learned were in place. Any attempt at a compromise or the PA not getting what they wanted was being controlled in her eyes.

You are making assumptions from the post A side not the pre A side.

Pre A I didn't notice it as much because I wasn't trying to get Poja out of my wife. Pre A I didn't notice it as much because I gave in to what she wanted(my Part). Pre A I avoided confilict, I enabled her behavior, I was co dependent.

We were two broken people. Post A I wanted to change that. In my personal recovery I went and saw an IC, I went to MC and I still didn't truly see PA behavior.

I saw me broken. Someone with no boundaries. Then as I started to set normal bounaries the fireworks started flying.

Just like a child if I objected to something, she did it more. If I set a financial boundry she crossed it. This is after agreeing not to because she knew it was wrong

Every discussion about her A became and attack on me. MC assignements agreed to and not done.

Going into a 12 step program and only being on step 3 after 21 months. Her poor sponser fired her because my wife would agree and not do the work.

It is not the best dynamic I will certainly concede that but do you beleive a person should D someone because they are PA.

I now just say calmly to my wife. This is PA bahavior and I am not taking part in it.

I have identified it and taken away any reward she may have gotten in the past. My anger or her victim status.

Keeping in mind the DISCLAIMER that I don't know much about the P/A stuff and don't much understand it YET...

I do agree with Noodle's general viewpoint thouhgh that it's KEY to focus on YOURSELF regardless of your loved ones' PERSONALITY SYTLe..struggling with figuring out my YS now,too, Noodle...

Speaking of ADMIRATION..

What I love about MB is that it is such a BEHAVIORAL APPROACH, IMO...

ADMIRATION is a PRIMARY EN of my H's..I have lots of theories as to WHY that is SO..from his FOO issues...

But the WHY..does not REALLY MATTER....

The MB PHILOSOPHY is that if you mmet your spouse's PRIMARY ENs then he/she will be HAPPY and it is our job to be the PRIMARY SOURCE of our spouse's HAPPINESS...

My H CRAVES ADMIRATION...laps it up like a puppy dog..I PROVIDE IT...it's that basic and simple to me..it is definitely NOT AT ALL HARD for me to do NOW..

It WAS hard when I wanted it MY WAY..didn't want to consider HIS NEEDS..wanted HIS NEEDS to be like MY NEEDS...

TA: You and I may not NEED lots of ADMIRATION so we don't UNDERSTAND it..how WONDERFUL it can make a PERSON FEEL...

If it's A NEED..it's A NEED, IMO..who am I to question it?

I NEED for my H to show FAMILY COMMITMENT...He clearly does not UNDERSTAND how IMPORTANT this is to ME..Comes from LOTS OF ISSUES in my past that he was not party to..he didn't live my childhood...

So yesterday, I put a FAMILY PICTURE on our coffee table. He was talking on the phone but shook his head NO as I moved some magazines out of the way. Right away my heart sank but I told myself..THIS IS MY NEED..not HIS..he does not UNDERSTAND..I plan to tell him. I plan to talk to him about it. I plan to POJA on how he can better meet this need. I wouldn't consider it MANIPULATIVE of him if he STRETCHES OUT OF HIS COMFORT ZONE and MEETS THIS NEED FOR ME..in his own way..in his own time..

Again..the BEAUTY of MARRIAGEBUILDERS..OPENNESS AND HONESTY..me being able to tell him how I feel and why I feel that way about his reaction to the picture..and him being able to explain his response and us being able to come up with a RESOLUTION that we BOTH can live with and FEEL HAPPY about...

The same with the ADMIRATION NEED that he has..I am AMAZED by it ..can't understand it..but with him sharing about it, I've come to understand it more and more...

And I can get into some STINKIN THINKIN, too..making those DJs and ASSUMPTIONS..so yesterday after the PICTURE EPISODE..in my own craziness, I was saying to myself from my own junk.."HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THE BOYS AS MUCH AS I DO"...CRAZT ASSUMPTIONS I HAVE...

Then, just this morning, out of the blue, he started talking about his LOVE FOR OUR SONS....

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Oh, lordy, no Noodle, I do not think less of him for needing the encouragment. This is where *I* have work to do. I, in no way, am diminishing him by seeing his needs as any less important than mine.

I have need for encouragment and admiration also.

I would hope that PWC does not think less of me for it, but recognizes the need for what it is, a bolster to get through my day, to navigate through my life, with much more ease. I expect to be called out when I'm NOT doing what I need, but I hope for that time to be one of encouragement, instead of a time to BASH me.

You catch more flies with honey...I totally believe this. I also recognize that I may have been critical of PWC INSTEAD of encouraging.

I have to work on this, so that I can keep from passing this to my son. It is of great importance to me, not only for my marriage, but so that my son can grow up with the self confidence he needs. This is not just about my marriage, but about how I relate to others.

I am not married to a PA so the post A/pre A issue is irrelevant to me.

I am talking about the dynamics of human interaction.

If you agree to drop your standard because you got conned or you allow your perceptions to be warped [by needing your spouse to agree with them for validation] then..hoss...that's on you.

You can be honest, encouraging, and STILL enforce the standard and with a PAer I find it absolutely CRUCIAL to require their investment one step at a time... every time.

You say..I know you can meet me at this step, I know that you are strong enough and smart enough to DO what needs doing...and before i will take even one more step in this direction I require that you do it.

Then if they will NOT do it...you make a decision based on fact. They are not willing to be honest or to take responsibility or to invest etc etc.

Obviously it is dysfunction in both people and sure plenty of them do not become aware of it until they have had cause to investigate why their life doesn't work.

That changes nothing.

That's exactly what I was gonna say.

P/As depend on their spouse to keep the dynamic going - that is, as long as they can keep their spouse angry and off-balance, the P/A has all the power and control in the relationship *while pretending they have none and are just poor poor victims.*

Calling them on this behaviour douses their fantasy world with ice cold water and shines a bright light on what THEY think is a deep dark secret that no one knows about (their manipulative P/A behaviour.)

Walking away kicks the support out from under them and they fall every time, because you can't be P/A without a partner to be P/A with.

I can only tell you that this sure worked at my house. Talking and reasoning got me absolutely NOWHERE. Maybe that would work with a sensitive child who is just beginning to experiment with P/A tactics as a way of life, but it sure didn't work on a high-powered corporate executive who was determined to keep his wife out of the way so he could chase office p*ssy without interference.
Mulan

The first line is often necessary in order to shatter the P/A's fantasy world. I would not recommend the second one.



This sort of thing may work well once you have begun to shatter the fantasy as described above. It could be thought of as the second tier in dealing with a P/A.

My H is also HUGE for admiration and that's how the office bimboes grab him every time. Sorry, I am NOT allowed to set foot in the corporate office OR at ANY of their social events so it's kinda hard to compete with that. But I do agree that for whatever reason, P/As also seem to have a huge appetite for admiration.


NO. That's NOT what it is at all. Confronting the P/A must be done as coolly and dispassionately as possible. It is NOT AT ALL an adversarial HA HA GOTCHA I WIN!

Instead, it is, "I am very sorry that you have chosen to be dishonest and manipulative with me. I thought better of you than that, but you are an adult and this is your choice. *My* choice is not to spend my time with someone who is happy to treat me this badly."

Then you GO AWAY, even if just to another room or for a walk or to the mall. You do NOT stand there expecting them to agree with you, or sympathize with you, or apologize to you, or anything else. You GO AWAY and leave them there holding the P/A bag all alone.

Do you remember the scene in *The Wizard of Oz* where Toto pulls back the curtain and the Wizard was exposed for what he really was? He practically deflated before their eyes and was no longer an angry, frightening, powerful threat.

That's how it is with P/As, too. It is NOT "gotcha!" It's just pulling back the curtain on a nasty manipulative "wizard" and shattering that destructive fantasy.
Mulan

Who said anything about talking or reasoning?

I suspect that I am MUCH more demanding of my son than you are of your husband Mulan because I actually require him to change what he is doing in order for the heat to be off.

If you are satisfied going in circles where the biggest gain to you is that you are not conned then more power to ya but that isn't good enough for me...not as a parent, not as a friend, and most definitely not as a spouse.

Your posts are exceedingly clear that you do not LIKE or RESPECT your husband.

That it is an adversarial relationship with him still pulling away and punishing you with behaviors and actions that are deliberately hurtfull and you staying put..living day in and day out with those actions as your reality but reclaiming your perception...and that's supposed to be a win?

That it's JUST IB that's disrespectfull to you instead of IB and gaslighting?

What is stopping you from accepting that he doesn't WANT to be a man you could respect and like?

What is stopping you from stepping OUT of the sickness and letting him spin the drain if that's his honest choice?

How can it possibly be that you can live like this and think it's working? What is it doing besides keeping you in an unhappy marriage in which you feel neglected and undervalued?

I don't think that is a PA issue Mulan...I think it's a Mr Mulan issue and your own issue as well because the MOST common observation that I have in nonfunctional PA situations is that the SPOUSE plays their part by continuing to hang on and stay in the game loooooong after the lights have been turned off and the players have gone home.

What would you need from him in order to respect and admire him?

Is he willing to give you that..yes or no?

And...if he is not willing then why are you still there?

About your above post...

IF and only if calling him on the behavior [ I do approve of immediate consequences] results in a CHANGE of attitude and direction...then I agree it's viable.

Problem is that it's an after the fact thing.

Something has to have already happened.

So..I pefer admiration and encouragement in set up and immediate consequence and conflict when he turns a direction you can't go.

I don't see you saying that this happens though Mulan.

After you leave the room...then what?

Does he apologise? Take responsibility? Make it right?

What?

You leave the room and do it all over next time? And the time after that...and the time after that?

Noodle,

What you are missing is a PA person resists "Control".

If you tell a PA what to do or what to expect you are setting your self up for disappointment.

They will agree and purposely underachieve if they do it at all.

I am a sales manager and a youth baseball coach. I am even keeled and I am very motivational to my sales people and the kids I coach. I never yell and chose a postive approach. I can't recall one time this season where I told a kid they were doing somehting wrong. Instead I tell them we they are doing great but we should change this one thing.

I do the same with my kids and my wife.

Your approach although novel so far hasn't worked for me.

Oh and again you seem to be advocating a D if your spouse is PA. Is that your advice?

noodle - it isn't all bad. That's why I stay. And the P/A stuff has all but gone since I started the hard-core confrontations. When I post to people here I am mostly talking about things that happened to me a few years ago. I still do not trust him fully, but he has taken some steps to make me feel somewhat better. I just have not said much about that here because it has gone on for so long that most people just say what you have said, which is "Why don't you leave?"

And yes, I do carry a great deal of anger for his deliberate P/A cruelty towards me. I also have every symptom of PTSD. I'm sure that all shows up in my posts when I am talking about what happened to me.

I don't leave because it HAS gotten better since I discovered what P/A behaviour was and learned how to deal with it.

I don't leave because I don't really want to leave. It isn't all bad.

I can always leave. I keep Plan D in my back pocket.

I post here trying to help others if I can, not to ask directly for help with my own situation. It's pretty much past that point.

And to answer your question - after I leave the room/house, he usually ignores me, but the next time a similar situation comes up he will take some action to make things a litttle better (such as staying in his hotel room instead of going out when on a trip, and doing it in a way that can be verified.) Things like that.

I don't post here about my own situation because I have chosen to stay where I am. I floundered for *years* but have ONLY seen real progress since confronting the P/A behaviour. I wish I had learned about that earlier, but I didn't, so I can only do the best I can *right now*.

So, if I can help somebody else on MB, that's why I'm still here.
Mulan

I advocate divorce if your spouse is unwilling to take responsibility for personality traits that are hurtfull and destructive.

So PAs resist control. MOST people resist control.

The entire point is to give the PA the option of pulling their weight or being not married to you.

It has to be THEIR OWN choice.

They have to be confronted with their self pity and emotional dishonesty and encouraged to pick up the ball and they must BELIEVE that if they choose to freeload it will not be enough to keep you at the table.

I think a LOT of people continue to hang on when they really should have let go but their OWN dysfunction won't let them and sadly they aren't dealing with their own dysfunction...they are trying to manage their spouse...aka be controlling..which starts the whole cycle again.

What a fun ride.

Noodle,

I personlly have chosen neither. I am a hanger on.

I have two kids and I manage my reaction to her behavior and don't tolerate the game.

I will stay married hopefully until my kids are out of the house or at least until they are older.

Then if the bahavior hasn't been eradicated I will leave.

However what you are saying shows a lack of understanding of the situation. Like you are jabbing someone in a tough situation that you really don't know a lot about with a stick.

This is how I would do it and if they don't change I will just walk away, get a D.

Funny thing I used to say if my FWW ever had an A I would walk away and get a D.

That is of course until I was actually in those shoes.

Frog...

You are making plans on a safely distant future but not actually DOING anything to support the changes you hope for being made.

What would happen if you used a different policy?

What would happen if you put your wife in conflict IMMEDIATELY right now today when a passive agressive incident occurred and you refused to take the heat off until it was amended? Not just ended..but was AMENDED.

What if you require her to take responsibility before you will go back to life as usual?

Are you a conflict avoider?

How do you expect her to be able to just wake up one fine morning and behave differently?

She needs to have the whole world stop on a dime and refuse to start again until she changes the behavior every time until she learns a different way to behave and also to train her to perceive what used to be the easy way as the long hard road.

Give me a random example and I will use it with this formula so that you can see how it works.

Noodle, I still think you're seeing the PA issue through the lense of a parent.

A parent has huge leverage with a child, and more, is expected to set limits, request standards of behaviour and impose consequences if these are repeatedly not met.

A spouse has no such leverage (apart from the threat of leaving), and it is not appropriate within a marriage for the spouse to demand behaviours without negotiation.

Saying "I know you can do this" has as hint of the parental about it - those sound to me like the words of someone who claims superior insight and confidence, patronising someone with less. In many situations, that's not a bad thing...but I can't see it's healthy in a marriage.

TA

The limits you set as an adult are called personal boundaries.

Abusive behaviors do NOT need to be negotiated..they are simply unacceptable and Harley agrees.

His solution to abusive behavior is to leave the marriage until the abuse is demonstrated to be under control.

Does that sound like negotiation to you?

When you encourage someone in this way you set the standard...I KNOW you can do this...and I won't accept less from you.

Mimi, I doubt if there's a human being on the planet who doesn't need admiration - certainly not me!

When does a need for admiration become excessive, though?

How can you know whether you are meeting a healthy need for love and respect, or desperately plugging a hole to keep out someone else's fingers?

If you were unable to meet your H's 'need' for admiration for a period - say by becoming seriously depressed, or injured - would you worry that he would turn to another OW to have his need met?

If his need is excessive (and I have no idea whether it is, obviously), what is he doing to address his own issues?

TA

I still am STUCK in thinking that the MB APPROACH still applies whether your spouse is P/A or not.

Mulan, you once told me that it does not. I THINK?

Where does LOVE fit into this?

Mulan, do you LOVE your HUSBAND?

Are you staying because he has begun to FILL YOUR LOVE BANK again?

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TA...

Who are you or I to judge what is excessive?

I understand what you are saying and I think most people have this fear especially post affair...but to me that sounds like fear talking.

Like anything else I would have to say...let's look at the practical.

If a person is able to function then their needs must be within reasonable limits right?

I mean...a person might like sex 3 times a day every day but if they GET that amount of sex and they do not still pursue illicit and ever increasing highs...then it still falls into the category of functional behavior...right? That doesn't make them a sex addict.

If DS or FS is extreeemely important to a person...but they function and do not have to turn to destructive behaviors when appropriate sources have run out of gas...then how do you make a judgement there?

In those cases it comes down to what you are willing to do and willing to give not whether your spouse should want what they want.

There is a difference between high maintainance and insatiability.

My measure of 'excessive' would be whether the person is able to cope - albeit with discomfort - without the need being filled AT ALL.

I don't believe that any of the Harley ENs are down there at the 'breathing' level of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. A properly actualised person can live without admiration, domestic support, recreational companionship or any of the others. It may not be a full, rich life - and few of us would relish living without them on a permanent basis - but a healthy person should be able to cope with none of those needs being supplied for a 'reasonable' length of time.

I suspect Harley's famous quote about us all being hardwired for infidelity refers to the fact that there are few for whom 'reasonable' really means 'forever'. The MB approach takes a pragmatic approach to the fact that, for many, 'reasonable' equates to 'about a week'.

TA

The MB method will not work on an active P/A any more than it will work on an alcoholic or drug addict.

That's because the P/A will simply sabotage and defeat anything you might try with MB. That's why I floundered literally for *years* trying to use MB to absolutely NO avail.

MB did not even start to work until I started busting down the P/A walls.


Unfortunately, yes. I used to think this was a strength but I am well aware that most people see it as a weakness. Maybe it is.


Sometimes he does, yes. Unfortunately he will often turn around and do something so incredibly stupid and destructive (and obviously deliberate) that it wipes out all the good that was done.

But as I've said before, once you understand P/A behaviour it becomes pathetically obvious and sadly predictable. This makes me willing to stay a while longer since my defenses are much better now, and I have little to lose. I can stay and continue to work for progress (and see some) and have something of a family life, or I can leave and live alone in a crappy apartment and break up my son's family.

So far, I have chosen the former. It ain't perfect but there it is.
Thanks for asking.
Mulan