While cruising around here today & reading posts, I started thinking about some things my WH & I talked about last night.

One thing he mentioned to me was that he thought part of his problem was he woke up at 45 years old & realized he wasn't where he planned to be at this age. I looked at him & said "that's what they call mid-life crisis." I said no more but today I got to thinking about it again.

My feelings on it are this:

When we grow up, we have dreams & plans about where we want our lives to go. Sometimes, they all come true. Sometime they don't & then we notice that our lives did not turn out like we planned them. I don't think it means we failed or settled for less. I think it means that our plans & dreams didn't fit what God had planned for us. That He leads our lives according to His plan & we don't even realize it. That we are going in the way He wants us to go & becoming the people he wants us to become.

My WH & I apparently differ on this thinking. My life was going the way I wanted. I had a 2 kids, a home, a husband that I thought truly loved me, a job I liked, & good friends to share good times with. I was looking forward to time for me & WH alone, now that the kids are grown. I am content with my life. I don't have to have things or toys or tons of money to be happy. My family, having enough to pay my bills & feed my family, a roof over my head is all I need.

Sometimes you make mistakes & are led down the wrong path, but if you learn from that mistake & correct your heading, you can become happier & content with what you have.

My WH is a material person. He sometimes values things more than people, things which I believe can be replaced when people can't. His priorities lie in having more "stuff" & more money. My priorities lie in doing things that don't cost money but are priceless just the same because they can't be bought.

Sometimes I think God brings 2 people together because they both have things to learn from each other. They balance each other out. Sometimes things go wrong, but if there is love, it can be set right again, better than before.

Just my thoughts.

pk,

I'd like to ask you some questions based on you being a FW. Somethings that might help me if I hear it from the other side of the coin.

I'm in a state of confusion because he is staying, not because he wants to, not because his heart is with me, but because it's the right thing to do & it looks good. He seems to think we can continue to live a half life from now until death do us part. He seems to think he will just wake up one day & his feelings will have changed & he will suddenly love me again. That we can just keep pretending everything is great until eventually it is. He doesn't think we need any help or need to do anything to put our marriage back on track.

Any thoughts?

Hi lost.


Well, he's going with the "fake it till you make it" school of thought. Sometimes that will work, but it would help if he would do some proactive things, rather than taking a passive role of waiting for a bolt out of the blue to turn him back into the kind of H you need.

My A was quite different than your H's, but the basic premise of NC is a good rule of thumb for anyone attempting to recover from an A. He has simply got to understand that he has to wipe her out of his life - completely. He must choose you.

I think that you are correct in that your H's A was a result of a mid-life crisis. Mind you, that does not excuse his actions, it merely puts them in context. With continued contact of any kind w/OW, he remains in crisis.

You say:

So you have discovered the meaning of the saying: "Who is rich? One who is content with his portion".

You were content with your portion. Your H was/is discontent, and it was his discontent that led him to seek fulfillment in the last place he should. Until he confronts his issues, he will likely always be searching for something to fill up the void.

One of the reasons that I posted to you is because you came across as facing a difficult situation with equanimity. I can't help but wonder if the fact that you are such a balanced person has influenced your H to lead a more unbalanced life, figuring that you will even things out. Often opposites do attract, as you noted - what we lack, we tend to look for in others. In some cases, what we couldn't get as children, we tend to seek in a partner.

PK

Hi, pk.



Yeah, but I just don't think it happens that way. He says he's done it plenty of times.

But maybe I should wait until he is further in withdrawal before getting too upset. Technically, NC has been since 9-11-07, the last text message he got from her. Of course that's not counting wanting to get on the website. I think I read somewhere here that things can start getting better after 3 weeks of NC.




I completely agree that it's no excuse. Some people don't believe in mid-life crises. I have talked to people who firmly believe in them. But middle-age crazy does explain a lot.




I grew up a true pk = preacher's kid. We never had a lot of money & emphasis was on family. I thought everyone lived that way. My parents were always content with their life, believing that God would never give them more than they could handle.




Thanks, pk. Sometimes I'm not sure how much equanimity I have. I've always been one to just go with the flow. You know, Sh*t happens & sometimes you step in it. But I'm always the one who says, "It'll be alright. It's not the end of the world. Let's see what we have to do to fix it, live with it, etc. My WH & my oldest DD both have the emergency personality. They both seem to go "Oh my gosh!! What do I do? This is not how it's supposed to turn out!" My youngest DD & I are the ones who say, "Oh well! Could've been worse. No sense getting upset over something you have no control over."

I've always wanted them both to be more easy-going rather than in emergency mode.

One thing that has caused a problem with us that I didn't realize at the time. When my WH lost his dream job in '96, he'd only been there 3 years. It was the job he thought he'd retire from. While talking the other night, I asked him if maybe losing that job was the catalyst that caused his feeling alone all the time & thinking he didn't love me. Because he keeps going back to 10 yrs ago. I tried to cheer him up then. Helped him study while they put him through AC/refrigeration school. Kept trying to lift his spirits. He mentioned to me that all the job changes since then are because he's trying to outrun his bad luck with jobs. He's been laid off 3 times since we've been married. I told him then that I don't know how he feels but I can see how affected he is by it.

I grew up with the philosophy that jobs can come & go. That maybe one is lost because there is another better opportunity out there. My dad was laid off from a job. A couple weeks later, his friends woke up & found out from the TV news that they didn't have a job to go to that day, the company had closed during the night. We were fortunate because my dad had already gone on to something else. So I was raised to not look at it as losing a dream job, but rather as God's way of getting us out of a situation that would eventually be worse. Some of the people who lost there job the same time my WH did, had never worked anywhere else, were almost to retirement & were in their late 40's to early 60's. No other job skills to fall back on. We were lucky, my WH had a really good skill & the company paid to train him in another skill. My WH has never left a job voluntarily that he didn't have another to go to. And when laid off, he always managed to find work to keep our heads above water. I've always been very proud of that.

So, I guess I've been trying to make the best of a bad situation while falling apart inside. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. And, unlike my WH, no one was there to hold me & be my cheerleader & tell me it would be alright. There have been times in the last year that I've felt more alone than I've ever felt in my entire life.

It sounds like you had a solid upbringing with a minimum of dysfunction. True? If so, take a moment to count your blessings.


Isn't it funny how our children turn out to resemble us emotionally? That's definitely the case in my house, where my daughter is like my H and my son, as my H calls him, is my testoster-clone. He looks like me and he acts like me.


As I said, this is part of the reason that I wanted to respond to you. I absolutely guarantee, whatever the outcome of your marriage, that *you* will be ok. You have the skill-set.


Do you have friends or family that you can confide in, so that you don't feel so alone? Do the people closest to you support your decision to recover your marriage?

PK

Hey, pk!!


Yes, I totally agree!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> In our case, DD#1 looks like me, acts like him & DD#2 looks like him, acts like me, LOL.





One of the biggest supporters I had was my stepMIL & he has cut off contact with her by asking her not to talk to me. And she won't. I can talk to his mother & I do sometimes.


As far as my parents, no. I left home when I was 17 to marry my WH. It was the right choice for me. My parents have never completely accepted him. We had a good life growing up, but now that we're grown, my middle Brother & I see alot of favoritism toward the youngest from my parents. If we mention it, they get mad. The dysfunction happened after we grew up.

On the other hand, my youngest brother married a woman my parents hand picked for him. She can treat us any way she wants & they will never say anything to him about it. But let her get upset at my WH or me & they immediately come to me & tell me we have to get along with her & accept her the way she is.

My WH made an attempt to be friendly with her, going to her house & apologizing to her & trying to make things right. She treated him the same.

He says that if this M works out, he will never darken the door of my parents home as long as they are alive. I don't blame him & don't expect him to.

Since my DD#2 spilled the beans to my parents, they have not been truthful with me. I found out that they were talking to his aunt in Colorado at Thanksgiving, when we had problems with her, WH & I came home & had Thanksgiving just the two of us. She was calling them & updating them on our sitch. I can only imagine the lies she told because she can't tell the truth. She actually told Colorado CPS that I'd threatened to kill my kids so she could take my DD#2 away from me. They wouldn't because we live in Texas.

A few weeks ago, my WH went to the local dumpground to haul off the trash. The caretaker there has lived around here his whole life & this is a small town. He asked if my WH was my dad's SIL & when my WH said yes, he said "He don't care too much for you, does he? He was here griping about you the other day." Real christian way to act coming from a preacher, huh?

They have wanted me to divorce him since the day we married. They have given me no support to save my marriage since they found out. In fact, my mother asked me why I was trying to save it. We got into it, I told her she obviously didn't understand & would she walk out on my dad after 24 years. Her answer, I would seriously consider it. My reply, then you don't love him as much as I thought you did. I have not spoken to either of them since except when I had to. I have too much anger right now to deal with them while trying to save my marriage.

This weekend sucked. I feel unloved & unwanted & my WH just doesn't understand that. He continues to think that if we pretend it's ok, it will be. Sunday, I wrote him a letter giving my perspective of our marriage right now. He saw it, asked if I expected him to read it & I told him no, he could read it if he wanted to, didn't matter to me. I told him if he wanted to know how I feel, he could read it. As far as I know he hasn't read it.

He won't read SAA either because he says he doesn't believe in the MB plan for recovery & doesn't need any help. He can take care of this himself. Which is pretend it never happened, pretend everything is ok & he will wake up one morning, in love with me & everything will be great. Mind you, he has thought he hasn't loved me for 11 years now, so I don't see how it will change.

I did tell him this weekend that if he didn't want to give me a good life & marriage, he needed to say so because it's cruel for him to continue to let me hope for something I will never have.

Thanks for posting to me. Hearing from you helps. It encourages me to hang on. And you give me things to think about.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yesterday I'd been thinking about something my WH said the other night. About how losing that job had affected him & how at that time he thought he didn't love me anymore.

So last night I did something I don't do often enough. I told him what I wanted him to hear. Told him I wanted no answers or questions, just for him to listen to me & then I walked out of the room.

This is what I said:

"I want to say something to you & I want you to listen & hear me. And don't roll your eyes. I don't want any answers from you. I just want to say this & know you are listening.

You know how you felt when you found out the brewery was closing & when you lost that job. That's how I have felt for the last year about our marriage. You've told me you stopped loving me that day 11 years ago & I don't know why. But unlike your job, which you couldn't get back because the company didn't exist, I thought I could get my marriage back. I beginning to feel now that our marriage is like your job. I can't get it back."

I didn't cry, lose my temper, or anything. Just said what I had to say, got up off the couch & walked away. No trying to convince him of anything, no talking about what I said, & I asked no questions. I don't know if he will think about it or ignore me.

Someone here on one of my posts told me that even if I didn't think he was listening, to say it calmly anyway & walk off. He will hear & it will stay in his mind. Eventually, he will respond or bring it up & when he did, I needed to listen. We'll see. I hope he heard what I was saying.

The rest of the night, we went on as if I'd never said anything at all. I did ask him yesterday why he thought he would wake up one day & his feelings for me were changed back to loving me when he said he hadn't loved me for 11 years, since he lost his job. If they haven't changed in 11 years, why did he think they would now. I sent this in a text message. I didn't bring it up or talk about it or ask him about it last night. It was just something I wanted him to think about.

What gets me is he's told me I think of nobody but myself & care about only what I want & not what anyone else wants. If that's so, then why is he the one who wants freedom & no one to answer to?

Well he sounds like a compartmentalizer. He just shoves stuff aside if it's troublesome. I understand this, as it is a common tendency in a wayward spouse.


Was that the truth? Did it truly not matter to you? You want to be authentic here. You want to be truthful at all times, even if the truth hurts.


Think of how much further along you might be if you told him that you wanted him to read it!

Well it sounds like your parents have issues....like all parents. I had to laugh at this:


I have to tell you that it impresses me not at all when someone says they're a Christian. Being religious does not inoculate someone against bad behavior. A person might as well let me know that they are white, have red hair, or like to eat hot peppers. They're all equally pertinent to the content of a person's character - which is to say, not at all. I look at how a person speaks about other people, speaks to other people, and how a person treats other people, particularly those whom they perceive to be on a lower social rung than they are.

OK, end of philosophical discourse!


Well, in defense of your parents, it must have been very traumatic to have their teenage daughter leave home for marriage. I have a 19 year old and a 16 year old, and the thought of them marrying now is shocking and unpleasant. But your marriage has lasted long enough that I would think that your parents could have grown to accept it by now for the sake of all concerned - particularly their grandchildren.

My parents have also had their issues in dealing with their children. My step-mother's children haven't spoken to her in years, in part because of the favoritism she showed toward my sister, and her inappropriate support of my father (they have the classic co-dependant marriage, which can be both good and bad). My father and stepmother would like to believe the pleasant fiction that it's none of their doing, that it's all her kids' fault.

Right. Because that's exactly how relationships work (rolling my eyes).

My husband points out that there is a huge inequity in the way I am treated as compared to my aforementioned younger sister, for whom my parents make every conceivable allowance and hesitate to criticize for fear that she will cut them off. Sad to say, I can see that my husband's success has made me a bit of a target for my family. They have much more empathy for my sister who has flitted from one unsuccessful marriage/relationship to another and had a couple of children out of wedlock with a man who was only too happy to sign away his parental rights in exchange for not having to pay child support.

I have learned to file their behavior under the category of "Life is not fair"; the file in question is a circular file <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Ok, back to you:


I like this very much - except for walking out of the room. I think that is a poor tactic.


I think that the idea of speaking your mind quietly and calmly is great. But walking off is not. It gives the person to whom you are speaking the idea that his response to your remark is not worth hearing, that you have said all that needs to be said on the subject. Period!

That's not communication, which is a two way street, that's a proclamation. Even if your H has no response, you don't want to get up and leave. As the wayward spouse, he's already going to be struggling with feelings of inadequacy. You don't want to add to them by suggesting that you are not interested in his thoughts.


All the more reason to have rational communication and wait for his response, even if his response is nothing at all. Telling someone else what they think is not a good idea. In fact, it's often a great way to start an argument!

What has he said that makes you think that he wants freedom and no one to answer to? Because with that statement, you're verging on the territory where you're telling him what he's thinking (wanting).

Good Morning, pk!!



I think he did this before he was wayward. The one time he went to IC with me, he told her that his family handled all problems that way, just don't talk about it, don't think about it & it will all go away.




Yeah, at the time I meant it. I was getting things out of my head & on paper. I kinda hoped he would but wasn't real disappointed when he didn't. It's still on his dresser for him to read. Now I wish he would read it but I'm not sure I should force the issue.




Yepper, mine says the same thing. Bad thing is he's right. And it happens in his own family. His mother makes allowances for both his sisters & says she doesn't have to worry about him because he'll always be all right.

I'm not sure if it's success, but maybe in my family it's because he has stayed with me longer than they thought he would. As far as my WH is concerned, my father has bad-mouthed him to people who are merely aquaintances & to family who aren't that close. Stuff that didn't need to be said. My mother even blamed us for something my younger brother did with my dad's tractor. Which has also made me mad.




This is a good idea & I try to do that but don't always succeed. My WH is more upset about the way I get treated than the way his family treats him.



I see your point. I don't remember who recommended that here as a way of dealing with the WS. To let them know something without LB or AO & give them something to think about.

But I see now how that could affect us in a negative way. I didn't mean to make it sound like I wasn't interested in what he had to say. I just didn't want him to think he had to answer or talk about it if he didn't want to. Especially because when I told him I had something to say, he rolled his eyes, said "OK, what is it now." with that "Here we go again" tone of voice. That upset me but I didn't let it get to me at that moment. And I wish I had some way of reading his mind so I could see if anything I said yesterday had any impact on him at all.




He has told me I tell him what he thinks all the time. I've started saying, "Am I understanding that this is what you're saying to me" which helps, but I also emphasize that I'm not saying how he feels, I'm only repeating what he has said to me so I can understand what he means. And, I've noticed since he tells me that, he does the same thing to me. When I mention he's telling me how I feel, he says he's not doing that, that it's what I said to him.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />




These are his words to me. He's been telling me this since last year, before DDay. That he thinks maybe he shouldn't be married, that he wants the freedom to go & do what he wants without having to ask or tell me about it. Mind you, I've never, in 24 years, demanded he tell me where he is every minute of the day. But the funny thing is, last year, after DDay, I offered him a 6 month separation, which he agreed to. But the stipulation was that I had the same freedom he did, to see who I wanted & do what I wanted without his knowledge or consent & the same went for him. He didn't like it. He wanted 6 months to do what he wanted while I waited for him at home.

Guess he can't see the forest for the trees! LOL!!

Today DD#1 & I went to a local trades day with a friend. We had a great time. WH went to West Texas with a friend to the friend's deer lease. I didn't have a problem with that. He won't be back until Monday.

I packed his bag, got his meds together & ready to go in his bag. I left him a note about his stuff, told him to have a good time & be careful & call me if he got a chance & I love him. I even set my cell phone to remind me & I called him to make sure he got up to get things together & leave on time.

He hasn't called but I somehow knew he wouldn't. Since all this started last year, he doesn't call me when he gets there or to let me know he's on his way home. This is all part of his need for freedom, according to him. He doesn't want to have to report to me everything he does every minute of the day. The last time he went fishing with a friend, I refused to call him & when he got home I didn't rush to his side. I just kept on doing my thing. He mentioned later that night that he wished I'd cooked supper. I told him I didn't because he wasn't home by 7 pm & he hadn't called to tell me he was on his way. I told him that I didn't see the need to cook for just myself as DD#2 was on a date with her BF. He acted disappointed but not my problem.

Before the mid-life crisis kicked in last year, he always called me when he got there, always let me know he was on his way home & would call to check on me while he was away. I miss that so very much. It made me feel loved & wanted. Now his not doing that makes me feel unloved & unwanted, like a responsibility he doesn't want anymore.

I don't want to be a responsibility. I want to be someone he wants to be with & loves.

I long for the day when he walks up to me, kisses me & says I love you & really means it. Sometimes, like tonight, I get down because I miss the H I used to have. The one who wanted to come home to me & cared whether I came home or not.

Yeah, he's staying because he says he made a commitment to me even if he doesn't want to stay. He staying because he feels responsible for me, because it's the right thing to do & it looks good to everyone. Yeah, he holds me at night while we sleep. But I get no other touching unless I touch first. He will hug me if I hug him first. And SF is completely out of the picture right now. He doesn't call to check on me if I'm late coming home.

I make sure I let him know where I am & what I'm doing. I tell him I love him but not as much as I used to because he gets annoyed sometimes.

I long for the day that he says I love you without me saying it first. I long for the day the confusion ends & I know something one way or another.

Tonight, I'm feeling sorry for myself & a little down, in spite of having a good day. I miss him. I miss the H who truly loved me & wanted me. I wish the WH would go away for good. I wish withdrawal didn't last so long. I'm feeling impatient again but I'm trying to replace it with patience. It's just so hard sometimes.

Ah, 24, your H is really letting his inner child out. And who wants to be married to a child?

It's as though he's deliberately punishing you by staying out of contact while he is away. A childish game of brinskmanship.

Good for you for letting him know why dinner wasn't on the table.

I can certainly understand your feeling down at this point, and I would start thinking about how long you are able to withstand living like this.

Not all marriages can be saved. If your H does not begin to share in recovery (and recovery is much, much more than simply being present) you may have to recover without him.

Start thinking about a deadline that you find acceptable. Start thinking about what it is that you are most afraid of. Start thinking about where you would like to be in 5 years time.

Take care.

PK

Hello, pk.

I get the feeling you're right about his inner child. I sometimes wonder if, in his messed up mind, he thinks that not telling me where he is or what he's doing or calling while he's away, is his way to prove that I'll never trust him again. To prove that I'm always gonna be a snoop.

Monday will be the start of the third full week of absolutely NC with OW. Or at least as far as I can tell or know. According to Dr. H, withdrawal feelings should start easing up a little.

But I've told WH I won't live in a marriage where we pretend everything is ok. Right now I have a time set in my head. When I reach that date (I won't say because he sometimes reads this thread), I will decide whether or not to stay in this marriage.

I don't think I'm really afraid of anything. I proved to myself & everyone else that I can make it without him emotionally & physically if not financially. If the house sells, that won't be a problem anymore.

I'm hoping I start seeing signs he wants to really work on it with me. Hopefully in the next two months. I let him go once, I can do it again, if he shows he's not going to put any effort into this marriage.

In five years, I'd like to be in a relationship with someone who wants to be my best friend, my lover & my husband. Someone who wants to spend time with me, to do things I've not been able to do because of kids & work. With the kids out of the house, I was looking forward to doing what I wanted without worrying about babysitters & such.

I was married at 17 & had my first baby at 18, a month & a half after our first anniversary. And during our first year of marriage, I was finishing high school. We've never had couple time like some do before they start families. I got pregnant 4 months after we got married. I was really looking forward to that. That's why we bought the camper, or I did anyway. He says he did also, so we could use it to go camping on the weekends together. Sometimes I wonder if maybe, in his sub-conscious mind, he bought it so he could get away from me to play. That's where I caught them together, in our camper at the Rec area on company property.

It's taken me time & effort to re-claim that camper as mine. To wipe out all traces of her. I've done it & have enjoyed the few times I've spent in it since he came home.

Recovery for me is possible without him. I just hope it doesn't come to that. I still love him. That feeling hasn't died yet. I know it will eventually if he doesn't try.

So glad to hear from you. You take care also.

lost

Last night, I cooked supper & had it almost ready when WH got home from his trip.

We talked some about our R. He says he thought everything was going alright. I told him that I didn't want a marriage that had no SF ever. He said "you didn't care much about it before so why now?" I had some medical problems & I got them taken care of. He says he doesn't care for SF anymore, that SF got him into this mess so he just doesn't care if he ever has it anymore. I told him I wouldn't live in that kind of marriage until I died. I told him that my love for him would eventually die if he didn't do anything to keep it going.

Right now he doesn't understand why I suddenly need SF & affection. On DDay, I had had an appt. with my ob/gyn for a month. My appt. was for November & I found out about A in October. My appt. was for those specific problems & I got them taken care of. It wasn't that I didn't care about it. I had realized that it was becoming a problem & I wanted to fix it. He doesn't remember that now.

I've gone back & read about withdrawal. That these feelings are normal, but it still hurts. I keep reminding myself that it will all work out, that once withdrawal is past he will want me again.

I told him I feel so alone & he told me he has felt that way for a long time. We talked about him not loving me since he lost his job in '99. He says it's nothing I did but he don't know why.

He told me he wanted to be able to do what he wanted when he wanted. In some cases I don't mind. But I want to spend more time with him & he doesn't want that, at least not right now.

I don't know the words to get across to him what I want him to know. I don't know how to say it so he understands. We have some problems he refers to that he says is too late to fix. I hear his side but he won't listen to mine. Mars & Venus, I guess. Different languages & neither of us understand the other.

One thing I've noticed is we talk better on the phone than face to face. He seems to listen more & hear what I say. I don't tend to get as emotional on the phone. Maybe I need to talk on the phone to him more often. Maybe that is our way of communicating right now that works.

Any thoughts???

Update.

Yesterday, I stopped by the house before I went to the plasma center to switch vehicles. It was pleasant & we talked about going camping this weekend.

As I was leaving, he kissed me & told me goodbye & be careful. I told him I would & I'd be back as soon as I could. As I walked off, I heard him say, kinda under his breath, I love you. I went back & asked what he said. He looked embarrassed & said he didn't say anything. I smiled at him & said I love you, too, kissed him again & left.

First time since last year that he's said it without me saying it first. I had printed some things off MB that pertained to recovery & what WS & BS had to do. I put a note on it asking him to please read it. He did while I was gone.

When I got home, I didn't question him about it or ask if he'd read it. I noticed that he didn't throw it away either, which he does if it upsets him & he don't want to see it again.

Baby steps, baby steps. Patience is the order of the day & something I struggle with minute by minute. I have to keep reminding myself not to get in a hurry & expect too much too soon.

As is said before here, time will tell & heal all.

I think it takes a while .... lots of ups and downs for a while.

What are the chances of you guys getting into some MC? Harleys would be great, but expensive. Maybe you can find an MC near you, covered by insurance, who follows the Harley concepts? Make some calls and do some interviews and see what you can find. I think your H may respond better to learning some of this stuff if it came from anyone besides you.

JMHO.

-AmI.

Hello AmIok, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Glad to hear from you. Yeah, Melodylane told me about an MC near me who is familiar with MB principles. I haven't checked to see if they are covered by insurance because I'm not 100% sure which ones they are.

If I suggest counseling, he will reject it out of hand. But since his mother is aware of the situation (& since he thinks she knows him better than he knows himself), if I talk to her about it, she can encourage him to go to counseling & he might just go for it. If I ask him to go, he thinks I'm telling him how he feels & how he should feel & that he don't need help, he can do it on his own. My MIL has already mentioned to me that he needs counseling. But I know that if the suggestion comes from me, he will refuse.



Funny thing about that is if I copy stuff for him to read from here, he does & some of it makes him stop & think. And I make sure that what I give him is not anything I've posted about but others have.

Right now my MIL is my biggest ally(sp?). For some reason, no matter what problems they have, he will listen to her when he won't listen to anyone else. And she wants to help because she believe he loves me, he is just being too hard on himself.

I think he needs to deal with issues about losing that job. That's when he started thinking he didn't love me & it had nothing to do with me. He's told me he keeps changing jobs to try to outrun his job bad luck. So I think talking to someone would really help, but the suggestion can't come from me.

We'll see. He's taking baby steps & so am I. I'm just impatient & want it all over right now. I've told him what I will & will not live with. I've laid down my boundaries. Now it's up to him to see if he respects them & continues to work on things.

You remind me so much of myself.

Gotta tell you how many DJ's there are in this paragraph-- and the only reason I recognize them is because I used to (and still do, to some extent) think and say the same things, and have been working hard on seeing them and correcting them in myself.

First, you are assuming that he won't want to do something (counseling) that you want to do, so in order to "make" him do it, you are planning on manipulating and going around him, to his mom. Sounds a little icky when put that way, huh? Is that really the kind of relationship you want to build, since right now you are working on building a new M?

What about trying something new?

"Babe, I'm really glad that we've decided to make this M work, and now I want it to be really great. I have found someone who can help us figure out how to get the love and fun back in our M. I'd love it if you went to talk to them with me. I have an appointment on Wednesday at 3. It's covered by our insurance, so there isn't much cost, and I think it's worth it for us to find a way to make this marraige really great again."

Straight forward, honest, leaves his decision to him, keeps your decision yours, no manipulation ....



The other thing I saw in your post was all the things you think he has to deal with. Lots of DJ's in that, too.

And as far as losing love for someone -- a major piece of the Harley concept is that there are specific strategies that create love. He says don't go back and re-hash all the old stuff, just builds resentment. Instead, work on building love between you, moving forward that way. So quit buying in to the whole "I lost my job, and that's what made me quit loving you." Doesn't matter -- what does matter is how to build that love back. If he decides later to work on other issues in IC, then that would be a great decision that you could support. But in the meantime, don't let it hold you back from building somehting good for the future.


-AmI.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Hmmmmm! Never thought of it that way but I see what you're saying. I guess I think that way because every time I mention going to IC, he makes a smart aleck remark about it but then throws it in my face if he thinks the IC will side with him. He went one time with me but thought she (being a woman) would only see my side of it. He didn't give her a chance & he didn't want to talk about our M, just his problems with my family.

He went to an IC one time, a man. He says he told him his A problems & the guy just told him he was really in a pickle. But over about a month's time, what was really said came out. And it was not what he wanted to hear & the blame was put on me for all his problems because the IC only heard one side of the story.

I've tried to be really honest with mine about my WH & myself & I would tell her things that I realized about my WH that weren't good. But she never blamed him for all my problems, only the A & his having one. She told me we shared equal blame for the M not being right for so long.

But since you put it that way, you're right. I just didn't see it.




I agree with you on this also. I know he has issues that aren't about me. I try to stay away from that. He's still in that stage of "I must love you because I'm still here." I try not to answer that. I've told him I want us to build a better marriage than we ever had & not go back to the old way. He don't think we can but I keep telling him it's possible. I'd just as soon not hear how he hasn't loved me since '99. I just want to hear that he loves me now.

The little I love you yesterday & going camping together this weekend is a start. Well, I guess the start came when he started sleeping in bed with me & holding me, which he hadn't done for several months.

I keep telling myself baby steps. I do remind him of good times we've had in the past & how much fun we used to have. I think those are good things to bring up & they remind me as well as him that our M was not all bad. Now if I could just get him to unpack his clothes that are still in the camper!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

One baby step forward, one giant step backward.

I did ask WH about MC. He didn't say yes or no just I don't know when I asked if he would go if I found someone he was comfortable with.

He was pissy when I got home yesterday. We ended up talking about us because of something he said & I don't really remember what it was.

He told me he has a time limit in his head & that if I meet that limit & go beyond it, he will assume that I've truly changed my housekeeping habits & he'll see then if it's too late for the changes. He didn't even remember telling me he loved me yesterday, said he must have said it because I said it first. He tells me it's too late, that I should have changed 23 years ago. That for 23 years he's been giving his all to me & I've been living here like I'm the only one & didn't care about anyone else. Just knowing how he's been in the past, 5 or 10 years from now, he'll say "well, you've been doing a good job with keeping the house clean, so I guess I can say you've really changed & I think we can make this marriage work so I'll start doing more." Ain't happenin'!!! I won't wait that long.

I'm beginning to relate the the Alan Jackson song, "Someday". I'm beginning to believe that it's too late, he sees nothing wrong with anything he does & everything wrong with me. But if I say I'm taking all the blame for the state our marriage is in, he says he's also to blame but he doesn't see anything he needs to change.

We discussed his changing his attitude toward me when he's mad at someone else. He said he probably wouldn't because that's the way he is & he doesn't see anything wrong with it. I asked about his getting mad at me & taking out on me the problems he has when working on the vehicles. He said he doubted it & I just shouldn't come out there while he's doing that. I reminded him that when I don't come out, he comes in yelling at me to get up & help him & can't I see he needs help? Oh Well, was his reply.

He said he doesn't see any faults but that he probably hasn't been a perfect husband. He said he's gonna continue to do what he wants when he wants & I can't stop him. So what about what I want when I want, I asked. Too bad! You can if you want but I don't want to hear about it.

Fog babble. He said that he will never build a house with me if our house sells because he knows I won't take care of it. He said later that he didn't say that, he said it would be a while before we built a house. He says he's not buying me a new car because I don't take care of them & wreck them. We got into a discussion about the wreck then.

He told me what he thought I'd been doing wrong to cause the wreck, speeding or following too close. I told him yes, I was speeding & following too close. He asked if I believed that & I said it's whatever you believe that matters so I'll say whatever you want to hear. He said he wanted the truth & I told him I'd told him the truth & he didn't believe me so I figured he'd believe a lie instead.

I can't win. After we went in the house, we talked some more & I asked if he cared enough about me to want me to have what I deserved, someone who truly cared about me. Yes & I asked even if that means walking out of my life. No answer there. He keeps telling me he wants freedom. He had it.

Oh! He also told me that he hates my parents so much that anything I do that reminds him of them, makes him hate me right then. I don't try to be like my parents & I told him that I didn't need my parents approval because I didn't marry to please them, I married to please me. He said he wanted their approval.

We talked about what we thought love meant & what we thought marriage meant. Thankfully, he doesn't think marriage means we share a house, name & kids but have separate lives. But he doesn't really know what marriage is really supposed to be. Same with love.

He told me later that I didn't do anything to try to love him. I asked what he meant & he said I didn't do anything to show I love him. I told him I do as much as you'll let me, I try to be affectionate & you won't let me. You pop off about me sitting on the other couch & say that says I don't want to be there with you, but when I try to sit with you on the couch your on you tell me you don't want me sitting with you. He told me "I don't want you sitting there with me." So how does that say I don't want to be there with you & he said he doesn't know what he's saying.
I asked if my getting better with housekeeping didn't tell him I loved him. Yeah, you're doing better with that. I asked if I do anything for him & he named off my getting up with him, fixing his lunch, cooking. I looked him in the eye & said, I do those things because I love you & to show you I love you. So how can you say I don't try to love you.

I began to wonder if he's still in contact with her. He acts like it a little. If I ask he won't tell the truth & I don't have any way of checking.

Last night & today are bad days. The day before was a good day. I sure hope we start having more good than bad before long. Yeah, we were LBing all over the place. I'm very emotional right now & cry at the drop of a hat, which he hates. And I forget what I'm supposed to do & go with the feelings instead. I do better sometimes but I still backslide some too.

We're still going camping tomorrow. So I guess that's a good thing.


Just venting today.

These kinds of conversations don't help anything and are really pretty destructive and distancing.

And you guys have them a LOT.

You aren't going to change his mind or argue him into agreeing with you. It's just not going to work. Let his stuff be his. Listen to him, listen and repeat, so you know it, and then let that be it. You aren't responsible for changing his mind. You aren't responsible for teaching him or making him do what you want him to do. He's responsible for his choices so leave them with him.



Remove yourself from the situation when he's like that. It's NOT a good time to get into relationship discussions and arguments. "Oh, honey (quick peck) I love you. I'll see you when you're in a better mood." Then go start on a load of laundry or cooking dinner or something.




Might have been whatever was bothering him. Listening and repeating, "getting" what he said instead of using it as a door to an argument, might have stopped things right there. "Wow. So you've been thiking about ________ today and you're feeling __________ about it? I'm really glad that you shared that with me. I like it when we can talk about things like this, even though they are hard to hear or talk about.



"I hear you saying you've set a time frame for when you will decide whether or not you want to remain in this M. Thanks for sharing that with me."

Nothing left for him to argue with, now, is there? There might be some room for him to correct you on what he meant or said, but there's nothing to argue about as far as whether he is right or not, or whether he has to justify it. He can have timelines all he wants. You can't argue him out of it. And it doesn't mean you have to live by his timeline. Hopefully you will still be around when his timeline runs it's course. But that's your choice, that's the only part you DO control.



Did you really ask him that? "Don't you remember you said you loved me yesterday?" What was the point of that? To prove to him that he loves you? And then argue with him about whether he said it or not? Kind of cheapens the whole thing, I'd think.

Your H runs with whatever emotion he's feeling at the moment. He's feeling lovey, sneaks in an ILY or cuddles up next to you at night one minute, and then the next minute he's feeling mean or frustrated or angry or whatever and tries to alienate you. Tired of that roller coaster yet? Those things are about him, not you. Let them stay with him. YOU choose YOUR actions, remember? He's responsible for his own.




You don't have to tell him about what changes you've made. Let him see for himself. The point is not to argue with him about it -- let him believe what he wants to believe. And you go with what you believe.

"I agree, I wish I'd found the FlyLady 23 years ago, too. Now that I have finally figured it out, I'm sure a lot happier with how the house looks. How do you feel about how it looks now?"
"I hear you saying that you thought I've been living like I'm the only person here. Do you still feel that way?"

I'm not saying you have to agree with him. His truth is his own truth. Same thing as "I hear you saying you think caviar tastes good" doesn't mean that I agree that caviar tastes good. But I can understand that you think so, and know that it wouldn't do any good to argue with you and tell you all the reasons why you shouldn't like it.

Same thing applies here. He thinks that you used to live too inependently (or whatever -- clarify to get to what he's truly saying). Doesn't make it true, but you can acknowledge that he believes it. And thank him for sharing that with you.



Ok, this is a bit of a DJ. But I also think it's good that you're thinking along the lines of choosing your own actions. Deciding how long you will or won't wait for him to commit to the M. Starting to determine some boundaries of your own. That's a foot headed in the right direction.



Unless he said that, you don't really know what he sees. In other posts, you've said that he feels so much guilt that he can't see straight. So maybe he sees LOTS of things wrong with what he did and is just trying to justify his actions. You don't know. Let it be his. You focus on you.



These are conversations you should have at the time. Then they aren't ammunition to bring up for later. Arguing about it later really doesn't help anything, it just brings up more things for you both to be resentful and angry about.

So, if you have a boundary that you won't be around him when he's being mean or testy, then enforce it. When he's mad at someone else and gets testy with you, you say "Ouch! I'm on your team, remember? I don't want to feel like a punching bag today. I'll be out in the garden if you need a friend to talk to."

or "Honey, I'd love to help you with the cars, but I get pretty hurt when you start yelling like you are, so I think I better avoid that for today. Maybe the neighbor's husband can help? I'll have a nice dinner done at 6 and bring you guys some."

Your boundaries, set and enforced and over with. And not argument fodder for a month or three later.



"I hear you saying you will do what you want when you want. That's pretty understandable, I think most people only do what they want to do. I agree that I can't stop you from doing anything you want to do, and I wouldn't want to, I don't want to be your parent. I'll let you know how I feel when your choices affect me so you can have all the information you need when making your choices."

You already know that you can do what you want when you want. You don't have to sink to his level to rub that in his face, the way he tried to rub it in yours.



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Oh, c'mon. You are better than this. Lying because that's what he wants to hear .... how is that any different from him telling you he won't contact the OW, becasue that's what you want to hear, when he has full intentions of doing so, anyway? Live up to your own standards, girl. Quit letting him make you react into being someone you are not, into making choices that go against your own values.



That's because these kinds of arguments are not win-able. You will never be able to talk him into or argue him into or beg or cry or force him into seeing things your way. So every time you try, you are putting yourself ina situation you cannot win. What you CAN do is know how you feel, and share it; listen to how he feels and understand it; make choices FOR YOURSELF and let him make his own choices.

You've given him some good reasons to choose to make the marriage better. Now you have to let him make that choice. And you choose what you are going to do.


I'd keep going through and giving "listen and repeat" examples for the rest of your post, but I'm sure you got the point. Plus I think this post is sounding a little bit harsh, and I don't mean it to. You really remind me a lot of me. I had people who were much more couth, more empathetic and smarter than I am to help me start seeing some of these patterns and figuring them out. That's why I feel like I can recognize the same patterns in some of your posts. Much easier to quarterback someone else's game from my lazy-boy on Monday mornings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


-AmI.