There are about 15 more "I told him's" that I was going to quote, but my point is that you need to STOP telling him. He knows. He's and adult, he's not stupid. He knows.

But when you TELL him, then guess who becomes the bad guy? You are the lecturing, nagging, "evil" person who won't let him do what he wants. He gets to pin all his pain and anger and frustration on you because you are the 'evil' one telling him what to do.

Do you want to continue to be his parent?

If not, then stop. Get out of his way and let him make his own choices. You already know that you won't be able to convince him or teach him or argue him into anything -- and every time you do, he just sucks you down deeper into his hole.

So quit trying to tell him what to do, quit telling him to make a choice, and start making your own.

Right now, he's already gone. He might be in the house, might be saying the right things once in a while, but he's been maintianing a relationship with his OW while trying to snow you into believing that your rough recovery was your fault. That's pretty much the definition of an A. He even thinks SHE cheated on HIM -- gotta have a relationship to cheat on. So he's gone, and you aren't going to "talk" him into coming back.

It's time to stop talking, time for him to make some choices and take some action (and you don't need to TELL him that, you just need to make your own choices and take your own actions). Stop having relationship converstions with him. Stop having any serious conversations with him. Anything more intense than "how's the weather" needs to float off into nowhere land without discussion, becasue these discussions are not going to help either one of you.

Until he's shown some actual action, serious changes, then don't talk about it. Have a few pat answers ready to go to change the subject.
"That's interesting, hon. Should we have lasagna for dinner tonight?"
"I'll be interested to see how that works out for you."
"I really don't want to discuss your girlfriend anymore, it is too painful. See you later, I'm meeting the girls for coffee."
"Thanks for sharing that." (the trick is to leave the sentence at that -- don't argue or discuss or give your opinion).
"I'd love to discuss that with you once you've committed to making our marrige work. Until then, want some ice cream?"

I think that anything else is going to be a waste of your breath and just keep making you the bad guy. Once you start seeing some actual effort, then it might be worth it to address some of these big issues. Until then, they are just part of the noose he is using to drag you down with him.

-AmI.

What are we? Chopped liver? LOL. You have us. Like I told someone else before... remember the cell phone commercial where the guy's network is following him everywhere he goes? Just imagine that's us. We're behind you. We're here for you. Come here and vent away. We can handle it.

((Lost))

PM, I think highly of your opinion, but do have a couple of questions.

You said
But she's already had this conversation with him. Several times. And each time, new drama comes up, new contact, and more of his "poor me" wallowing. He's flat-out refuesd NC, faked NC, argued about NC..... pretty much killed the NC boundary. How much longer do you think she should contiue to allow that without enforcing that boundary? (I'm not asking facetiously, I'm serious, I am not good at knowing the timing on these things -- I'm hoping that people like you who are better at making that call will keep posting here).


I agree that lost needs to stop LB'ing. I'm wondering how much "help" she should give him, though. This has been his pattern, to "need" her, keeping her sucked in, while the whole time he's in the backroom playing hooky with OW -- sucking all of them that much deeper. I think his "need" is a manipulation tactic and I wonder how much she should help him and how much she should let him face his own consequences? IMO, he needs to face the consequences before he ever changes any behavior. How do you draw the line between the two -- helping him and lettinghim face his own consequences?


He's already continuing contact with OW. And hiding it and lying about it (ex: the most recent txt message). A move away would be a good facilitator for Plan B. And my guess is that lost is long past the need for Plan B -- but again, I am not good with timing. So a move away isn't usually recommended in Plan A, but I'm not sure how much longer she should be plan-A'ing, anyway. What are your thoughts on that timing?

Thanks.
-AmI.

I think Lost has been through a lot of cr*p with his man and his OW. As far as the plans go, I'm no expert. I've only read about them on the site and here on this board. I've never actually done them. Shoot, if I had known about MB, I would have saved myself a lot of grief when I was going through my own stuff.

With that said, from what I gather from reading here, I think it's really up to her how long she's willing or able to continue Plan A. But there's also the argument about not being a doormat while in Plan A. I get the impression that she really loves her husband and wants to work things out.

So I think she should continue Plan A until she can't do it anymore and is about to lose whatever love she has left for him. The purpose of Plan B (as I understand) is to protect that love but also to prepare her either way to get on with her life... with or without him.

Hopefully some of the longtimers will chime in and give their opinion.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />Sorry I haven't been on the last few days. I've been helping him find a job & update his resume.

The last text messages I know about were last Tuesday. I found 2 from her that he hadn't read & erased them before he saw them. I know he'd sent her messages that Monday & these were answers to his. He'd erased all the others. I called her friend & left her a vmail asking her to tell OW that if she didn't cease & desist contact with my WH that I would go the legal route, file a RO & have her served with it at her job in front of everybody. As far as I can tell, there's been no further contact.

But I put him on notice that I wouldn't be his crisis manager & get him through this just to have it go back to the way it's been the last year. He has told me that he needs me & wants me, that if he finds a job in another city & moves, he is taking me with him & wants no one else with him.

I have a time certain in my head that if things don't change, I'll be gone after he gets a job. If I remember right, I shouldn't tell him the time frame I have in mind.

So far, things are going OK. He's working a temporary job with someone we know that'll pay the bills. He has applications in Ft. Collins, Colorado & several cities in Texas. I keep feeling that something is gonna break soon & he'll have one of the jobs he's applied for. Hopefully it'll be the one in Ft. Worth. We had a family meeting Sunday to discuss moving & get input from our DD's. Both are agreeable & since DD#2 is graduating high school this year, she's not too concerned about a move as long as she finishes school here. We are ok with that.

The only thing that's changed is he's gotten a little distant. But I chalk that up to withdrawal. I get the feeling he's realizing that she wouldn't be able to help him get through this & has admitted to me that I've always been there for him during times like this. In the last year, he's told me I was never there for him during bad times & he always felt alone. So a minor change but one I didn't expect. But I'm not totally believing him yet. That will take time.

I'm still doing the things I've been doing for him & he seems to really appreciate it. I'm still picking him up off the floor, but that's nothing new. But he is also, at times, picking me up for once. I've started back giving him little notes & cards I make up. I used to do this alot & sneak them in his lunch that I fixed every day, until he started his mid-life crisis & told me he didn't want me doing those things for him anymore. Now he wants me doing them again.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

He did ask me if he should go & beg for his job back or accept it if they decided to offer it to him again (they are really in a bind because he knew that plant backwards & forwards & no one else in Maintenance does). I asked him if he really thought I wanted him to go back to a place that reminded him daily about someone & kept him from letting her go. He admitted he didn't think I would & he didn't really want to go back. So on that we agree anyway.

Haven't had any bites on the house but a few have looked. We decided to keep part of the land to build on later, like after we retire.

I'm still plugging along, trying to keep things going. One thing that upsets me is the lack of SF. I'm hoping, based on what I've learned here, that it will come back to him after he gets through withdrawal & this latest crisis. He says he has no interest in that anymore & I've told him I won't live in a marriage without it. Should I wait for a while & let him make a move on his own? On this, I'm not sure how to handle it. Sometimes, I wonder if he's doing that so that I'll divorce him anyway. Then he can tell everyone he didn't want a divorce but since I couldn't live the way he wanted, I had to leave. Or maybe he wants me to cheat on him so he can still look like the good guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

But, in any case, if I don't see a definite change in his attitude toward me & our marriage within a reasonable amount of time, I will end it. I'm hoping that a job in a new city, where he can live by himself until I'm free to join him when the house sells, is my opportunity to Plan B for a while. When that happens, I plan to NC him unless he contacts me first. We'll see how it goes. I still love him for no reason I can put into words but I've never needed a reason.

So far that's it for now. I'll get on again soon & update. Hopefully, it'll be to tell everyone he got a job!!!

I appreciate all the hugs & the listening everyone does for me. This is the only place I really feel I have anyone to pick me up when I need it!!!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

One other thing that happened last week.

I go home for lunch most every day. We were fixing lunch together & WH looked at me & said, "You look so sexy since you lost that weight. I really think you look great." My reply, "Thanks!! I feel sexier since I lost the weight. That's why I'm working so hard to keep it off."

This was an out-of-the-blue compliment. We were talking about something totally different. And it's the first real compliment I've gotten since DDay. It made me feel really good.

So I guess there's still hope for us.

I got word about OW yesterday.

She has said that she no longer feels the same way about my WH & she won't have anything to do with him as long as he's married. But she doesn't think it would ever work out between them anyway. This from her "best" friend, who's been trying to keep them apart & help me get things together.

She mentioned that he holds grudges & blasted her about something from the past when he called her about the guy she is dating. She says she doesn't want to be with someone who constantly brings up stuff from the past.

That is one thing we are trying to work on. WH & I are both bad about bringing up the past in arguments. He is doing better about it & so am I. But apparently not with her, LOL.

He's very distant. The affection he was showing the first week after he lost his job has ended. I hope I'm right that this is just a symptom of withdrawal. I'm trying to wait it out without getting upset but is sure is hard.

Also, should I put my boundaries in writing for WH or just talk to him about them? Right now he's unapproachable about anything. And should I wait until I know he's through withdrawal before bringing it up?

If anyone has anything they used to cope with this, I would sure like to hear about it.

Just needing to vent a little.

WH is now convinced that he will never get a good job & we will be stuck here barely getting by. I can't tell him anything positive without him throwing it back in my face. And forget about anything positive being said to me. I've just stopped talking to him & trying to lift his spirits. Yesterday I sent him a text message that I was thinking about him & I have a strong feeling that something big is just around the corner. He asked me last night why I thought that & when I told him, he scoffed at me. I can only be up for everybody so long before I drop.

I hope his distance & lack of affection is only withdrawal. I have found no evidence of any more contact between them. It's been almost 2 weeks since NC. He's back to saying he doesn't know what he wants & he knows how I feel he just doesn't know what to do about it. This is in conversations started by him. I did go to him to try to tell him how I'm feeling right now & I was accused of bi***ing & told that was the reason he cheated on me, because I bi*** all the time. Still in the fog.

I sometimes want to tell him to leave but I know I can't do that. I wish he'd go off on his own until he gets his head & his heart on the same page. And his grand wish that if we don't talk about anything or try to work on anything, all the bad stuff will just go away, ain't gonna happen. He's fooling himself.

And I don't want to go back to the marriage I had. I want a better one. I'll be glad when he sees that.

Just needed to talk a bit.

Thread drift....

I am going to a funeral of a friend tomorrow for this exact reason (the thread title). Friend found out that his wife of 15 years was cheating on him and when he confronted her she said it didn't matter because she had filed for divorce. He went off the deep end. Got a gun and threatened suicide and when the cops came he pointed the gun at them and they fired 15 shots at him hitting him 5 times. Suicide by cops. He was 42. RIP Tony.

People are shocked. He was a very friendly and liked guy. Personally I don't think there is a way to tell if someone would do themselves in because of their spouses rejection. Just about everyone didn't think this guy was the type.

I'm so sorry to hear that.

Missed your last few posts, just getting caught up. Sounds like the roller coaster is still in full swing. One day you're sexy the next your scoffed at. No fun.

You mentioned putting your boundaries in writing -- what would that look like? What are your boundaries?

Boundaries have progressive, pre-determined, pre-communicated enforcements. What are your boundary enforcements? What must he do to prove to you that he's comitted to this M?

You're doing a lot of carrying for him. Taking on consequences of his actions. Propping him up. You said you can only do this for so long until you drop -- why are you doing it? What do you get out of it? Knowing that might give you a little more strength to keep hanging in there -- or it might give you a reason to stop.


My opinion -- and it's always easier to give when you're not the one in the heart of the drama -- I think it's time to let him pick himself up, show his own worth, clean up his own mess. You sit back and watch, and take care of yourself. Be your bright, sparkling, happy, sexy, moving-on self, making a great life and future for yourself. Let him know that he's invited to come along with you if he wants, as long as he pulls his own weight. Otherwise, you're done carrying him and you have better things to do than let him keep dragging you down.

Lost, your WH created this mess. And he did it by totally disrespecting you and your feelings and your M and your family. It's not your job to make that "ok" for him. Get out of the way of his consequences. When he whines about it, take yourself out of the equation. "Sounds like you're pretty down about that." "Thanks for sharing your feelings with me." "Hmmmm." .... Notice the periods on the ends of those statements? That's the end of the statement. You don't keep going, don't keep discussing, don't keep trying to fix him, talk him out of it, boost his ego. No getting in the mud with him.


There will be recovery time later to have R conversations and address and fix the other problems. But wait until he's committed to the M and has shown it in his actions before you invest in those kinds of conversations. Right now, he's so far out in la la land that all of that is just more gunk and doesn't mean anything to him yet.

Every time you lecture him or try to make him feel better or "tell" him anything, you're putting youself in the way of his consequences, putting yourself in the parent role, and giving him an excuse to point his resentment and anger at you instead of where it belongs. Do you really want to sign up for that long-term?

-AmI.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

I'm so sorry to hear that. I can only imagine how you feel. In my sitch, no one thought her BS would do it because he had threatened it so many times, it was like the little boy who cried wolf. In the end, he did anyway. What's so unreal about the whole thing is he was a WH & his OW came to his funeral. He had been with her right to the end while trying to get his WW to come back to him.

You just never know anymore.

Yep, full swing on a daily basis.




I asked because I was wondering if putting them in writing, what I will accept & what I want in this marriage, would be better than telling him when he doesn't seem to be listening. Thinking that maybe if it was in black & white (or purple & white in my case, LOL) where he could see it would be a good thing.

My boundaries?? I will not be part of a threesome. I want a marriage of just two, he & I. I will not go back to the marriage I had, it didn't work then why would it work now?? I want to learn to solve our problems without bringing up the past, concentrating only on the problem & not unneccessary stuff. I want us both to treat each other better. I want a life where my H & I enjoy time together & spend that time with each other now that the kids are grown. I don't want to be a comfortable old shoe, which is what I am now. I won't be his crisis manager anymore. I won't bust my a$$ to help him find a job so he can leave me for someone else as soon as he gets one. Would it be better for it to be in writing???


So far, he's only committed to me when he needs me. I'm not allowing him to do it anymore. I've quit picking him up. Saturday, he told me he wanted a D. I told him "I don't but if you do, then you get it. I won't do it for you. I want & know I can have a good marriage with you. You make your own choices." And I left it at that.

Maybe I did good & maybe I didn't. I can't tell but maybe others can. I didn't argue with him & I let him stew on his choice. I refuse to compete with her anymore.

Let me know what you think about my boundary question.

Hearing others say what they see helps me see things that I can't because I'm too close.

He's done. He has admitted to me that he can't get over OW & doesn't want to. That no matter what, even if he had decided to stay with me, he would never cut off contact with her & give her up.

So now I'm done. He has the divorce papers & I hope he files them today. I can't take anymore. I only hope she is there for him & will take him back because as dumb as it sounds, I don't want him to be alone. I'd rather see him with her than see him alone. Kinda stupid of me, huh???

I just love him so much that I don't want to see him end up that way. I hope he moves out as soon as he files. If he files today or tomorrow, we can be divorced by January 1. And then I can start over.

He says he can't fault me for anything except that I never kept the house as clean as he wanted, wasn't a freak in bed & I'm too corny & say things he thinks are corny & that's stupid to him. But there is someone out there that will appreciate my being kinda corny. I hope someday he misses that about me.

I told him that after he files, I don't want anything more to do with him, no contact of any kind until I don't love him anymore. I don't want to be his friend. He doesn't understand that. When I set down my boundaries, he accuses me of being a b***h, says she would never b***h.

I've told him I won't accept being part of a threesome, I won't accept living half a life & will not settle for anything but a complete marriage. I've told him I will not be his crisis manager & will not bust my a$$ to help him find a job, type his resume, do his computer work only to have him walk away with someone else as soon as he gets the job he wants. I won't settle for a marriage with no SF just because he has hang-ups about what he's done. I want the total package & for the love I get to be as unconditional as the love I give. When I set these boundaries, he gets angry & tells me he's filing for divorce because he's tired & ready for it to be over.

BTW, he didn't take the papers to file today, saying he wouldn't have time. Why would you put off what you know is the right thing to do.

He told me that when he's with her, he doesn't feel it's wrong, but he feels bad because he's still married to me. If that's the case, (I'm asking here, I didn't ask him this) why would you stay married to someone if you felt that it's not where you should be & you were happier somewhere else?? If if felt right to be with someone else, wouldn't you want to hurry up & get out of a bad marriage so you could be with the one who felt right?? Oh, but I forget, he said he doesn't know if she's his soulmate, just that it feels right to be with her.

I'm broken, I'm ready for it to end. This rollercoaster has been too long a ride for me. It's beaten me to death & I'm ready to get off. But I won't be the one to leave. That's his to do. He doesn't want to be here, he can leave & the sooner the better.

Maybe I'll be celebrating my divorce on New Year's Eve. I sure hope so.

Thanks for listening.


Turn out the lights, the party's over!!!!!

Remember, this isn't really anything new. He's in and out, back and forth up and down all the time.

So what's new now? You finally being willing to set boundaries and take action? Don't let his actions determine yours. And don't wait for him to tortue you any more with his flip-flopping before you make your move. It's way past time to start protecting your heart and yourself.

Where's your Plan B letter? I'd make it short and sweet. And get him out of the house -- tell him since he made his choice, it hurts you too much to have him there, so it's time for him to leave. If he won't, then you leave. And do it quickly. As soon as you aren't living in the same place, then give him the Plan B letter and go pitch-black dark. Your daughter is old enough to arrange her own visits with him, so you won't have to get involved in that at all.

His R with OW will collapse. The question is if he's already done too much damage to ever be able to come back to you.

Yeah, you're right, it's not anything new. I talked to my MIL today. Sounds bad but she has been where I am & I can talk to her. Mind you, I don't trash her son to her. I talk about how I feel & what I want. She's the one who told him he had to quit breaking my heart. She told me he needs to stop now. I told her he has the divorce papers but didn't take them with him because he says he won't have time to file them. She says that's because he doesn't want a divorce. But she also understands that I can't take anymore. She told me that I may find out I'm better off without him, just as she found out the same about his bio father. But she says I need to concentrate on me, let him work his problems out & that he needs to stay away from me while he does it. That he shouldn't have anything to do with me or come back to me until he has a clear head.




Haven't gotten it written yet, but I have an idea of it in my head. One page & that's all




If he won't leave, I will. I did tell him that since he's made his choice, he needs to make things easy on me & leave. That his being here every day hurts too much. He says he has no where to go. Then it's "I need a couple days to find a place to stay." I told him I want him out of the house by the end of the day that he files the divorce. When he's gone or when I leave, it will be pitch, black dark. I've told him that he doesn't need me to arrange visits with the girls. I've told him I don't want to see, speak to, text message or hear from him in any way, shape, form or fashion once he's gone.

You know what he said last night?? So you're saying that if in 5 years I want to date you, we can't & won't. My answer, "Date? Maybe but maybe not. Ask me in 5 years."

What an a$$!!!



At this point, if he really showed me it was truly over with OW & he wanted a good marriage with me, I would take him back. But I have to have some kinda proof. She told a friend that she would take him back in a heartbeat, but she won't give up the men friends she's got & the first time he brought up something from the past & threw it in her face, she would drop him like a hot potato. My MIL says he needs to find out for himself that the R with OW will not last. MIL says she don't think it will last but he needs to see that & telling him won't cut it. I agreed with her & I'm at the point now of considering calling OW & begging her to take him back & get him out of my face. (probably not a good thing to do but I DO think about it.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)




Nope, not new. But I have made my move. I drew up the divorce papers for him & made it where he can file them without a lawyer. In our state, we can do a DIY divorce & it's cheaper than with a lawyer. I've verbally given him my boundaries. And I'm not gonna let him pull me down any further. I told his mom that I wasn't gonna move heaven & earth to help him with his job search only to have him walk away with OW when he finally gets a good job. Her words, I don't blame you, I wouldn't do it either.

But my MIL also knows I love him & she tells me she knows. She told me today that if she knew more about what was going on, she could talk to him some more. I sent her an email & I told her about the issues he mentioned to me that he has that are not about me. And they're not about her but she knows enough about them to talk to him about them.

At this point, only time will tell. I got up as usual & fixed his lunch today & saw him out the door. Force of habit? Maybe. But the more I ponder on this past weekend, the more I realize that we can't be in the same house together. At least not until he either gets his head & heart on the same page or divorces me & if he divorces me, I won't have to see him at all. Suddenly, that doesn't seem to be a bad thing!!!

Today I found out that OW will take WH back on these terms:
he can never bring up the past, especially not her past, in any way & he can never have anything to do with me ever, not even about our kids. She says he can see the kids as long as he doesn't see or talk to me. And he can never visit me.

Plus, it was on the news last night. They caught her jail escapee son in Oklahoma. He had a pregnant girlfriend with him who is now going to live with OW while she has the baby & OW sorts out his legal trouble. And he wants to be with THAT!!!

He did tell me the other night that she'd be worth the effort but he didn't know if she'd be worth the sacrifice.

If he finds out she said that, wonder what he'll think?

For now, I'm looking for someplace to move to temporarily. My MIL agrees that maybe I need to move out for a while, til he gets himself straightened out.

We'll see how things go. He wants me to go hunting this weekend. Maybe!!

I sure as H wouldn't move. Let him move in with OW and jailbird's GF and the baby. Your hubby is going through a fantasy or MLC. He needs a good dose of reality.

I would open the cage door (as in "Love Must Be Tough"), and let him go.

Then move on to a good life for yourself. Be sure to buy lots of popcorn to sit back and watch the coming train wreck.

I agree that it's not normally ideal for you to leave the house, but given that it's not likely that he will leave on his own (no matter how you "set him free"), and you are trying to sell the house, anyway, and your kids are older and can handle a transition pretty easily .... in this case I don't think it would be a bad thing for you to leave if he won't. Either way, do it fast. The sooner you can get into Plan B the better. And remember to keep up the spectacular Plan A until the moment you leave, so he wil have something to think about when you're gone.

You know that Plan B will mean you need to stop "hearing" about the OW, too, right? I think it's crazy that you know about her "conditions" for taking him back before he even does. You'll drive yourself nuts if you keep entrenching yourself with her. She's down in that pig slop right along with him -- get yourself OUT of that!!!

How about "You know, honey, I'm not waiting anymore for you to decide whether she's "worth the sacrifice". You've already chosen to sacrificed me, our marriage and our family. Now I get to choose, and I choose not to live in a threesome for one more second. It's time for you to leave."

And then if he won't leave, you do.

Your H seems pretty passive .... what do you think would happen if he came home and the locks were changed, with a couple of suitcases packed and sitting on the porch with a Plan B letter for him?

-AmI.

Well, I may not have to move after all. I found out this morning that the job in Ft. Worth is still on, his application has been submitted for a background check & they will tell him something by mid to late next week. If it comes through (& I think it will), he will be gone for 6 months, which is his probation period. I told him the other day I felt something big was just around the corner. I'd been emailing the HR lady for him about this job, he asked me to. I sent 10 emails since July 30. She had gotten none of them. I found that out by sending one to her last night & to my yahoo account, instead of my IP account. I never got it in my yahoo mail. So I copied & sent it from my yahoo account. She got it & told me that she hadn't gotten any of the earlier ones.

His mother is praying real hard that he gets the job. So am I.

So maybe he will be gone. When & if he gets the job & goes, I won't have any contact with him. The only way I will is if he lets me know he's made a decision & I know his mind & heart want the same thing. If we divorce, I will go for older men from now on. I don't want to go through another MLC ever in my life. I want a man who's already been through it & knows what he wants to do with his life!!!<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />