I've been doing very well lately, not lovebusting and keeping my pain to myself -- so as not to bother my H. I figured if I kept quiet, the issue would not only drop for him (which he's panting for) but also for me -- the less it's in the foreground the better.<P>But last night I wanted a little reassurance, and we started talking about "it" again. Naturally, he got fed up with it and took me to task over my inability to "get past it". He couldn't understand why it would still bother me after nearly 9 months -- why I still felt hurt. Of course he doesn't get it -- to him it was just a friendship, but to me it was at the very LEAST an inappropriate friendship that bordered on an emotional affair -- something I'm not sure even now that it wasn't.<P>Anyway, he was listening to me talk about WHY it was so hard, and WHY the thoughts kept recurring, when he turned to me and said:<P>"You know, you're very lucky that I'm a patient man, and that I've sat through all this. I think any other man would have given up on you by now, left you, or told you to shut up"<P>Well, what do you think came to my lips? I felt like saying "And YOU'RE lucky I didn't walk out when I found out you lied to me for months, and continued to lie to me even AFTER I found out about it, and that I stuck by you and tried to change myself so it wouldn't happen again!!!" <P>But I didn't. I just said yes, I know you've been patient, but if you'd been any less patient who knows what would have happened. He got upset and said "ANY LESS PATIENT??" thinking I meant that he'd just shown the minimum of patience necessary to help me over it. It didn't get much better after that, but at least I didn't lovebust with the "you're lucky I didn't leave" remark.<P>I'm still boiling over this. How can he hold himself up as some kind of saint for "putting up with me"?? If he hadn't lied and snuck around with this b*tch in the first place, I'd have nothing to GET over, let alone to take "this long" getting over it. Shouldn't he be happy to listen to me every now and then (and it really is quite occasional now)?? I couldn't believe that came out of his mouth. Now I'm supposed to be glad that he listens? I'm supposed to feel bad because I need to talk about it once in a while? I should have shut up by now? Jeez, I'm boiling.<P>Have any of you ever had to listen to stuff like that, and if so, how did you handle the HUGE resentment that accompanied the statement?

Cristall,<BR>I know exactly where you are coming from. My h. had an emotional affair, too. I still bring it up (its been almost nine months for me too) and he just says 'it doesn't exist for me anymore' as if by saying it he can erase it from our lives and make like it never happened. Not! He gets so irritated, critical and unkind when it does come up and I always end up feeling angry, hurt and resentful...like who is this man? Certainly not the man I married..not the man who used to be so kind and cared about my feelings. It came up again yesterday and, unlike you, I couldn't refrain myself and blurted out in the mist of my pain when he wanted to know how we had gotten on it again; 'because I don't know if I want to be married to you anymore and I'm crying out for help. Can't you hear me?'<P>If he was just more remorseful I think I would feel better. He has told me in the past that he didn't do anything wrong because he never kissed her or anything. No, but he did tell a friend of ours that God had shown him that she was his perfect soul mate. Didn't do anything wrong? Ha! Well, if that's how he wants to rationalize it, okay then. <P>Its so hard to cater to him, to try to be the main fixer of it all when he's the one that broke it. He should be willing to do whatever it takes to get me through this. I know how your'e feeling. And your H is lucky that you did not walk. God, to have a remorseful H. who was aware of the emotional damage he has wrought and who was truly sorry. Hang in there. <P>Today, I'm trying to be loving again. I do love him and question what has gone wrong in his head to change him so much. This man who used to be my best friend, who I could trust with my very heart not to hurt me...I can't trust him with my feelings anymore. I'm starting to feel like I can't talk about it at all to him because I'm just going to end up feeling hurt again.

Yeah, Christalle,<BR> I know how you feel. We're still not discussing "it" because he doesn't want to talk about it and I don't want to rock the boat (lovebust), which is what bringing it up will do.<P> I feel that if we were really so "lucky," they wouldn't have put us in this position to start with.

Cristalle -- Our situations are not exactly the same, but W doesn't understand why I can't just get past the affair. She minimizes it and is mostly concerned about the pre-existing problems in the marriage.<P>I have tried to get her to understand that I believe the problems are THE paramount issue, but we need to resolve the fallout from the affair also, that it is very important to ME.<P>It does appear that she is slowly beginning to understand my feelings, but at this point it may be too late, which is really too bad.<P>I, too, have trouble not LB'ing when we discuss this and in some cases I haven't been successful. She hasn't exactly said that I've been lucky she had been patient, but her actions and other comments sure seem to support that she feels that way. For her, her issues are important, mine are not, that I should take her the way she is or just go(She has actually said that).<P>You are not feeling anything unusual, just vent on this board where we understand and will support you. Then, maybe, you won't feel the need to challenge your H with this.<P>Good luck and my thoughts are with you....

My H had a month long ten date kissy face thing (I hope) with someone who kissed him after she met him at a bar. I believe a few contributing factors and a rare timing opportunity converged and "it just kind of happened" when normally it would not have. Not defending it, but I think when OW (who smoked, drank too much, had a foul mouth... had been with many men...who would have thought THAT) started to "fall in love" and pressure him to leave me, he realized he had to get out of there and so when I discovered, he was already walking away. Although he feels completely remorseful, and thinks he was an idiot, when it comes up he reminds me it "wasn't that bad".<P>That made my blood boil until I reframed it. I guess I'm glad he never had a deep emotional involvement. I'm glad he was ending it on his own. I'm glad it was only a month. I'm glad he found he didn't even like her after knowing her. I'm glad she pursued (unmercifully and with great cunning) him. <P>Still I have lost nine months and counting in this pain and lost productivity. For a while I believe I was close to insane, although functioning. Even now my attention span is shorter, I'm much more forgetful, I do not trust my judgment and my the absolute security I enjoyed in this marriage is gone.<P>So not that bad just about ruined nine months of my life. The up side is I have grown emotionally and I beleive we have learned important lessons and the rest of our marriage will have more intamacy and be more fulfilled than it would have been. Still, I am not sure it is worth the payoff. <P>It's always there and sometimes something triggers it and I actually freeze in a painful memory. It is better, though, and I cling to the idea that these thoughts and the associated pain will continue to diminish.<P>Lately, I have been thinking of bringing it back up in order to get closure on a few details/issues about the affair. But I'm afraid it will be painful for both of us and make it raw again for a while. The answers do not even matter for our future, just little nagging unknowns. So for the time being I am staying silent.<P>Anyway, I know how you feel.<P>Last month we were at a wedding the night of our anniversary. We took a short walk and I got kind of choked up and said "I guess we are lucky to be here together tonight."<BR>Him, "Why?" Me, "Well, our marriage could have been destroyed this year." Him, "Oh. No, it was nothing like that. I was never intending to leave you." Me,(after a pause) "Well, you are lucky I didn't kick you out."<BR>Him, stops and looks at me "I would not have left, even if you asked me to...it wasn't like that, it wasn't that bad...."<P>Uggg....<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

God bless you for your efforts & forgiveness in your marriages.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Do not get tired of doing what is right, for after awhile you will reap a harvest of blessings if you do not get discouraged and give up. (Gal 6:9)<P><BR>

Hi Cristalle,<BR>I could have been the one writing your post. It has been much longer for me. March 13, 1998. He acted exactly as your H is. I could not figure out why he was so angry with me. I still cannot figure it out. I tried everything from the enticing encounters to being loving and sweet. I had spent the last month slapping myself and being the goodest little wife any man ever had. Then it blew sky high. He said he was comfortable when I was being like I was. Thing was he was still just as mean and arrogant as ever. At the breakfast table the AM it blew, he just did the same old thing, shut me out, refused to talk to me because I was crying. My grandkids meet at my house and walk to school together. Of course they saw I was crying and when they did he just got up and started to walk out the door. I followed him and he started out the door, I put my hand on his arm. He shook it off and looked at me with so much hate. "Please.......don't leave like this." <BR>He said, " When we start arguing in front of the kids it must be over."<BR>It wasn't what he said it was the way he looked at me..........detesting the sight of me. I wanted to hit him. I told him I would help him pack his clothes after work. I called him at work about an hour later and apologized for being so close to hitting him. He came back with a snotty reply of, "Why are you apologizing you did nothing wrong." I said, " I am sorry it can't be fixed but I won't hate you so I will help you pack when you get home........I love you."<BR>He didn't leave........for the first time he started talking to me. He said he will work to fix what he screwed up. First time he has ever said he was sorry and meant it. I'm not sure that I still won't have to help him pack but I know I need to take care of me. Love busting my butt! He has been a self-serving little dictator and I know I can live alone. I told him that anything he does for me I can hire someone to do. I am soooooo tired. I really don't think I did anything to deserve the torture of the past couple of years and I am just not going to be his rag doll anymore. He will love and respect me or he will live somewhere else. As long as he is here I have to think about how he feels. I think about you a lot Christalle.........I'm sure you are going through all the mind games I have been going through. Mind boggleing isn't it. You know I feel better because I have decided to take a stand for me. I am losing my mental health, and even my physical health........not to mention my sense of humor! This time I am done though. If he doesn't at least try to answer when I ask, he can go away. I will be praying for you.<BR>Love, Karen<P>------------------<BR>alleyoop<BR>

delete.<BR>victoria<p>[This message has been edited by victoria (edited October 17, 1999).]

Thanks for responding, everyone. I'm sorry to see that this has happened (and worse) to more than just me <P>FHL, I like your reframing analogy. I had done that too, and have been happier recently thinking and knowing that it didn't mean anything to him. Of course, this makes you wonder why they bothered with all the subterfuge in the first place, if it meant nothing. However, the very idea that it wasn't the love of their life is comforting in a great way. <P>Still, what I resented was his implication that he was wonderful and patient for "putting up with me". So I called him on it last night when we got home from work. I framed it in the most non-love-busting way I could think of, and just asked him exactly what he meant by that. He said he didn't mean what I thought AT ALL, that he really didn't know why he said it, and what he actually meant was that WE were lucky, not just me. Of course then I couldn't resist saying that WE were also lucky that I'd stuck around to make the marriage work (without mentioning his lies and making him feel bad). This seemed to do the trick, and he said he wasn't looking for admiration or a pat on the back, but was speaking rhetorically, wondering what could have happened if he had "been like other men" and told me to "shut up", and if I had just walked. So I accepted this, even though I feel like he may have been backpedalling to avoid trouble (H is a major conflict avoider and will say or do anything to avoid what he calls trouble).<P>So that was that, and we did some work around the house and watched the last tape of the film "Shoah". Yeah I know, a real cheerer-upper. Went to bed with H quite relieved to have not fought for hours on end. This is one of H's bugaboos -- he's recently heard some John Gray type psychologist on the radio saying that men don't like to argue for hours or discuss things without coming to a solution, that it's a "male thing" not to want to listen to women "drone on and on", so now he thinks he's justified in getting upset or growing bored if a discussion about us lasts longer than half an hour or so. He told me he hoped we could keep these things down to a dull roar and that he also hoped I wouldn't "repeat" myself ad infinitum during discussions. That I've said nothing new for months, he's heard it all before, and why dredge up the past? Can't this all go away and can't we be happy? I just said yes, good night, and turned out the light. By this time it was 1 a.m. and I figured going to work this morning was more important than dissecting his statements.<P>So he calls me from work today, just to say hi. I say "What a coincidence, I was just thinking about you", to which he replies "Oh really, why?". I told him because I missed him. He said something cryptic like "Well, soon that won't be a problem". Now, this sounds innocuous, but H always does this. He won't say anything remotely sweet or loving on the phone to me, because he's embarrassed that a co-worker might hear him. He's been doing this since we met, and I thought I didn't mind anymore, but for some reason today I got upset about it and asked him why he acted like this, was he trying to pretend he wasn't married by acting like he was talking to a client instead of his wife? He said that wasn't true and tried to turn it around on me, saying that I did the same thing when I called him from MY work!!<P>It degenerated into an argument, and ended with H whining that between overwork, too many meetings, and my hassling him about calling, not calling enough, not calling properly, etc etc, he was "feeling close to breaking down again". Uhh, what?? He's been acting like he's fine for 8 months now, no sign of the supposed "depression" that led him into his emotional affair. He's cut down working hours and we spend more time together. He seems happy. Suddenly he's "having a breakdown"?? Does this sound passive aggressive or what? Talk about your diversion tactics.<P>Instead of going on arguing, I let him win, and apologized for causing a fuss while he's at work. I also promised not to bug him about calling properly, let alone AT ALL, so he can concentrate fully on work when he's there. He started whining that I was "only saying that" because I was afraid his impending "breakdown" was going to cause me trouble again. How sick is this?? I just told him to go to his meeting and we'd talk about it when we got home.<P>So you see, it's different sh*t on a different day, to paraphrase that old chestnut. And that's where we stand at this exact moment...I feel like an idiot for calling him on his cold attitude at work, and I feel like a positive virago for causing this so-called imminent "breakdown". And if it is just a passive aggressive ploy to get me off his back, then I don't know what to do with this man...I really don't. And if he really is breaking down, what kind of weakling are we talking about here? If anyone should be breaking down, it should be me. I'm the one who had my world turned upside down by his selfishness and inconsideration. I'm the one that had to try to conform to his expectations about me, when the only conditions that were placed on him were that he stop talking to OW and come home at a reasonable hour. I'm the one who spends at least an hour a day reading these boards or other self-help books to try to make this marriage work, with a whole whack of other problems to deal with on top of that. So WHO exactly should be breaking down here? And I'm not. I've come bloody close, but I haven't gone down into the absolute depths. Why is HE so bloody upset?? Makes me feel like he's too weak and irresponsible to be a good husband. I know that all sounds like a disrespectful judgement, but I really do feel he's trying to manipulate me by threatening me with another breakdown/depression. Like it's a veiled threat for me to shut up or I'll pay.<P>I'm beginning to understand why people just say "I've had enough" and run to the divorce lawyer. This is so much hard work, with very little payoff it seems. When I "smile and act nice", things go well, but I suffer silently and my resentment grows because I can't say anything, and he seems happy. It reminds me of something he said a while back. I asked him that, if I didn't say anything for months about it, whether he would bring it up or ask how I was doing with it. He said no, that if I never mentioned it again he wouldn't either -- he would "figure I forgot about it". I told him that could never happen...I may have forgiven, but forgetting is sadly impossible. He said "that's what scares me" as though I'm on some sort of invisible schedule to get over this and erase it from my mind, lest he walks out some day.<P>This is all so frustrating, and I'm not making sense anymore. I just wanted to thank you guys for listening and telling me your experience, but as usual I go off rambling. I'm so thankful that you've taken the time to read this...I don't know what I'd do if I didn't have this place to vent sometimes.<P>Alleyoop, I had to erase my ICQ. Long story, but H told me if "he couldn't do it, I couldn't". Could you send your email address again? We can talk via email. I'm sorry to hear your situation is worse <P>

Cristal,<BR>My H really hates to talk. If we have talked about his affair and recovery from it, six hours total, that may be a lot. The initial discovery, getting an idea what happened, how long and why, how I was feeling...everything six hours or less. Really. Now a sentance every once in a while, when it is relevent to subject at hand. (Like now he's working nearer her city I asked him to look at me and verbally promise he would never eat where she works, even if a group of them were going out.) I kind of figured out from his reaction that he doesn't want to see her again, especially with other people, because I think he thinks she would embarrass him. Good.<P>About the same time I asked him if he ever thinks about it. He said, yes, about once a week and he thinks how sorry he is it ever happened. I was truly surprised he thought about it that often.<P>Now I have kids that don't know...actually no one knows, so I don't have much of an opportunity to talk anyway. When we are alone, I'm trying to be fun and captivating.<P>This forum is my personal avenue to work out the residual crap. Cristal, my H would never talk to may day in and day out about it, or anything. I'm impressed your H talks as much as he does.<P>To be honest, there really isn't anything new to say. I know its over, I know he's sorry, I really think it meant little and he "woke up" and thought I gotta get out of here. We have read a few books together which I absolutely loved, but now there is little time with his new job probibly for six months. I wish he was more interested in growing spiritually and relationship wise, but he doesn't want to read and he doesn't want to listen. He is actually quite open to new ideas, so I wish I could give him a shot of some of this stuff...but oh, well.<P>On the bright side, everything I have read and this forum has given me the opportunity for tremendous growth. He is fine with me leading the recovery and cooperative with new communication techniques, etc. The biggest changes have probibly come within me and have spilled over unto the relationship. I think I have learned to free myself emotionally, so I am teethered to no one in terms of my emotions, words or actions.<P>There was not too much I could change about the actual marriage because I was a Plan A wife since day one. I kid him he has no idea what it is like to be married. I have always encouraged his recreation, budgeted to meet his needs, tried to maintain a flexible schedule to support his sporatic one, rarely ask him to do anything around the house (actually he's good at this on own) but rather encourage him to take a nap or relax. And I've always been nice to him. Were my need met? No, although maybe since we both adored our family and I thought he was a man of integrity, my most basic needs were met. But anything touchy feely on his part? No.<P>If someone would evaluate which one of us should have been ripe for an affair...guess what it was me. <P>Chistal, in conclusion, your feelings are more than legitimate, but I question if your methods are getting the results you want. I have suffered in silence a lot, but I don't think I'd be any further down the road, and maybe not as far, if I suffered while hashing it out with H. Some of the journey to forgiveness and recovery is a lonely personal stretch of road. Did you read my thread on Grief last week? I did a lot of grieving, but grief can be healthy if you are working toward recovery. Maybe you and your H have different styles or are at different places. <P>Ask yourself this, if your H seems happy, why do you resent that? Are you afraid he has not suffered enough or if he is not showing constant remorse you fear his behaviors have not modified completely? <P>I'm relieved to see H happy, his smile melts me. Even if I have to work stuff out on my own, I don't want to bring him down, I want to lift him up.<P>Yes H's actions put me in this pickle. But since I agreed to stay, I feel I am accountable for my own recovery and restoration of the marriage. Unfortunately my time table I believe is longer than my H's, but as long as our shared goal is a healthy, honest, faithful marriage, then that's the way it is.<P>I wish you the best on your journey...by the way what books have you read...I always love to compare notes. <P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Crystal,<BR>I am reading the book "How One of You Can Bring the Two of You Together" by Susan Page. In the book she says that you (and me and all the rest) have every "right" to be angry at what our spouses have done to us and our relationship. But she also says quote: "The problem with being right about the way you analyze yuor prolbem is that thats all you get. That's it. You get to be right. You do't get to solve the problem. You don't get to be closer to you spouse. You don't get to reduce the conflict in you relationship. You don't get to stop feeling angry. You don't get the changes you long for. Being right is a dead end." She calls being right the booby prize.<P>In order to improve your relationship, you need to give up your right to be "right". Then you need to change you actions to get the response you want.<P>I know this is a large pill to swallow, it's stuck about the middle of my throat right now but I am determined that I will get it all the way down and improve my relationship.<P>Just some food for thought. Good Luck!

Derby, That took you a lot less time to say what I was getting at.<P>I am ordering this book today...since I'm already of this mindset in theory, don't know if it will help a great deal, but if makes the application easier or clearer, then it will be worth it.

Hi Cristalle,<BR>Just dropped in to look at the thread you started. God we could be in a twinner world. My e-mail is byteme2@net66.com<BR>I would love to hear from you. Isn't this the most frustrating, illogical, maddening problem of your life?! I am in shock! Hope to talk to you soon. <BR>Love, Karen<P>------------------<BR>alleyoop<BR>

Hi again Cristalle,<BR>Does it strike you funny that all these men? who hate to talk did just that with the women they were in an emotional relationship with? Makes me so mad I could spit. I am tired of being sweet. He could get on the internet and say things to some other --- but he doesn't feel like talking to me. If I get emotional and cry he is angry. But he could do what he did and I can't get angry. He has said I carry it too far, I nit pick, I analyze too much, why can't I be like him and just get on with it. [censored]! I didn't have any of the fun of the cheat. I didn't put our marriage at risk to make myself feel good. And I do not want to beg even one more minute. I deserve to be treated with love and respect. If I want to know....he should tell me.....or go away.<BR>Talk to you soon. Take care. <BR>Love, Karen<P>------------------<BR>alleyoop<BR>

Thanks again you guys. I really appreciate the input, it's given me food for thought.<P>Derby, I bought that book and consumed it in one night a little over a month after disclosure. I try to do some of it, but am easily discouraged. I'll take your recommendation as a sign to pick it up again and gain new inspiration.<P>FHL, I've read all the Harley books, most of Iyanla Vanzant (waste of time), Dr. Phil from Oprah's book (can't remember title), Susan Page, "Getting the Love you Want" by Harville Hendrix, "After the Affair", and several more. I find most of them helpful when I read them but end up lovebusting a lot when their precepts fade from my mind. One book that was more helpful than any other was Richard Carlson's "You can be happy no matter what", which is a godsend when it comes to overcoming negative thoughts.<P>Well, here's my update. Another day dawns, and things are a bit better. He explained that he isn't close to breaking down, but that he said it on the spur of the moment because he felt that way then. He was having a bad day. I got this when I played solicitous and asked if he thought he should see a counsellor? I figured that was more in line with "smile and act nice" than attacking him for being a manipulator. And we actually had a constructive discussion and agreed on a few points. Watched another movie and had a nice dinner.<P>But no day can pass without its singular annoyances. I tried to kiss him in the hall on my way to the kitchen and he pushed me away. Seeing as this has happened about 1000 times in the last year and a half, I had to ask (respectfully) why he did it. <P>He said "Well quite honestly, when you do that I think you want sex, and I don't always want sex". <P>Leave the semantics of that statement alone for a minute. Imagine this is coming from the mouth of a man. A man who initiates sex ONCE a month on average. He doesn't "always" want sex? Almost never is more like it. And I must say I've never heard of a man his age (late 20s) that was so afraid of the PROSPECT of sex that he pushed his wife's kisses away to pre-empt it. And yes, I've heard the headache excuse too. I've even heard the "my stomach is bothering me" excuse AFTER he has initiated -- makes me feel like he wants to get out of it once he's started it!<P>So all this passed through my mind as I absorbed what he said. After all, you'd think it would be ME who didn't want him to touch me after what's happened. Isn't it usually the betrayed who finds it hard to be intimate? I haven't had that problem at all, but he sure seems to be.<P>All I ended up saying was "sometimes a kiss is just a kiss, and I don't necessarily mean it's an invitation to the bedroom". He smiled in relief and said "good, I'll try to remember that" and gave me a peck. So now he's all reassured that I'm not going to jump him, but that sort of opens up another can of worms. I mean, I knew he wasn't exactly intererested but I figured it was because he wasn't thinking about it. Now I know that the thought of it passes through his mind when I kiss him, and he is so agaisnt the idea that he tries to prevent it. Great.<P>Ho hum. Like I said, it's just one problem after another. It's exhausting, like one of those fairground games where you hit the gopher's head with the hammer, and another one pops up.<P>Think I'll immerse myself in my work today to escape from all this.<P>Alley, I'll be mailing you today

Name change!<P>Got sick of seeing _in_NYC behind my name, since I'm not actually there right now

Just a thought -- has your h always been basically anti sex? That could be the reason he had his relationship online. Maybe all of the problems are that he has a sexual problem, maybe from childhood, maybe from something else. Hang in there and try to be loving with touch and don't look for any sex without him initiating it. Just a thought.

Hi Derby<P>No he hasn't always been this way. It started just over 18 months ago. For the first two years he was all over me. I don't get it.<P>I just came up with sexual plan B myself I plan to do nothing to initiate for the next month to see what happens.<P>Great minds think alike

Dammit..I just disclosed my plan to him. That was stupid. Now he knows that I plan to NOT initiate for a while, to see if he will. Great

Cristalle1,<P>I am 6 weeks into sexual Plan B and it is very tough. <P>My situation is a bit different I guess - she doesn't "love me as a husband anymore". She is the betayer. She hasn't had sex with OM (yet?) but won't have it with me either. And I decided I wasn't going to ask cuz I couldn't take any more rejection, and to give her space. I am being loving and affectionate to her, but not sexual. <P>May God grant us patience.