Bob ~ I agree with you that complete recovery requires responsibility. A MB marriage should not require boundaries between husband and wife...because each takes responsibility for protecting the other from their own weaknesses.

But Jerry's wife is NOT safe...and Jerry is not ready to leave his wife.

Life is messy and after 37 years of marriage, I can understand why....

So what to do?

To stay in his marriage, Jerry will need to accept his wife, detach from the hurtful behavior, and draw boundaries to protect himself.

Will it be a perfect MB marriage? No. Can it work - I don't know.

But I do know that many people live in imperfect marriages without being destroyed and miserable. I am one of them.

BR


I am such a person too.

But I would not be in this marriage at all had Squid not taken responsibility for her affair. I could not possibly have choked down my indignation each day were Squid to not have taken responsibility for her actions. It would have been too unfair for me to ever trust her again.

I guess everyone has different personal boundaries. If mine had included an MB-template marriage I would now be divorced as Squid is not capable or is unwilling so to create.

Recovery is an ongoing effort to manage the tension between acceptance and settling, I believe.

and...I think this is a perfect example of why the Harleys MUST be called to negotiate initial recovery.

This stuff can't be negotiated by 2 very biased people in a highly emotional, highly vulnerable state.

Bob, thats exactly it. Personal boundaries are just that...personal.

Healthy boundaries are not necessarily identical in everyone's lives.

I don't know if I could have made it without personal responsibility on th epart of my husband...it was something that Steve ensured my husband "got" was a requirement.

You know BR...looking back I sometimes wish I'd set the "bar" higher as advocated by CV55 on the recovery thread. But I think I knew instinctively that it would have led to a divorce if I had.

My wife has neither the tools nor the inclination to self analyse and self improve. Had I made that a requirement she WOULD have divorced me without a squeak of complaint.

That may not have been a disaster of course, but I am reasonably content with my lot , all things considered, so I do not regret my choices then. Doesn't mean I am happy with everything, but not disquiet enough to divorce over.

Hi BR and Bob, et all,
I almost feel guilty responding to this thread anymore, as it inevitably bumps it up, which is not my intent. Too many other really hurting people on these threads to waste much time on my sitch.

Just a couple of thoughts, if I could.

I do feel safe in this M NOW, b/c my wife has made the changes necessary to insure this won't happen again. POJA and RH and Transparencecy are vital after an injustice such as infedelity.
I never intended to give anyone the wrong impression, but may have inadverntly done so.
MY W IS COMPLETELY CHANGED NOW, VERSUS, WHERE SHE WAS 6 YEARS AGO.

Yes, BR, personal boundaries. That is what I put in place for what I will and will not accept. Her boundaries are to protect herself. But you said there should not be boundaries in the M, Did you not?

I personally feel that that is not true. To me there are three sets of boundaries here, one for you, one for her, and the last for the sake of M and forsaking all others.

For the record, I am perfectly happy in accepting my W's NEW behaviors. I hope she can do the same for me. But I do regress from time to time. Just exposing the scars to sunlight once and a while.

All blessings,
Jerry

Please don't feel that way, Jerry. This is a very interesting thread.

Downplaying and minimizing your problems helps no one.


Hmm, yet you were bothered enough to start this thread.

Something doesn't add up.



Not quite.

In a MB marriage where POJA *IS* truely in place...there is no need for boundaries BETWEEN husband and wife. The boundaray is placed around the COUPLE.

Where POJA is only partially applied, where dysfunction - like alcoholism - is present - then boundaries have to be in place.

You should not have to protect yourself from you wife in a MB marriage. Your wife is responsible for protecting you from her...and vice versa.

Boundaries are between the couple and the world, not between spouses.


But I don't think you really do trust her behavior. And I am not making a judgement on that. It is what it is - if you don't trust her - then say it and own it.

You just need to acknowledge what IS, instead of putting things out there and then pulling it back and pretending it meant nothing.

Jerry,

I don't know if your wanting this thread to die or not, but I have a couple more comments.

It seems like your saying hey everythings fine, we're doing the MB stuff, but I just have this nagging problem with my FWW saying that the A was 80% the OM and maybe 20% her. Your wondering should I just accept that or should I do something about it.

Let me use an analogy. Its been proven time and again that if your trying to lose weight, "willpower" alone is not enough. What people suggest is "environment control". Avoid going to places with lots a food. Replace some of the activities you do that usually make you want to eat. Etc, etc. But environment control by itself is not enough either. You just can't control when the person who loves to cook brings in a big plate of your favorite brownies. So you have to do both. Minimize the "bad" environments but when you find yourself in a bad one rely on your will power.

I often look at the MB principles in a similar fashion. Harley says people have A's because they failed to protect their weaknesses. Harely says that it can happen to anyone. Its a de facto way of saying willpower alone is insufficent to keep someone from having an A (I know many people would disagree with that).

Similarly, much of the tools of building an affair proof marriage are "environment control". Protecting one's weaknesses is about environment control. POJA, 15 hrs a week together, meeting EN's, avoiding LB's, PORH, are all about putting a person in the best possible environment for avoiding an A. But it's real life out there. You can't completely eliminate all the environmental factors. Intuitively one knows that at some point in the future each person is going to be in a place where they have to rely on willpower. Making the right choice.

As I said in the previous post, a person can't committ to making the right choice if they claim they didn't have a choice the first time around.

So how affair proof can a M be. 100%, 90%, only 50%. I don't know. But I think the highest percentage occurs when 1) both partners are doing the environment control part and 2) both partners accept that what they did in the past was their choice and 3) both partners committ to making the right choice in the future.

I don't think your FWW is agreeing to the second part and thus can't do the thrid part.

IMHO, what you should do about it is determine how affair proof of a M are you willing to accept. If you need it to be closer to 100%, you should talk to your FWW about it. In simplest terms, the question to your FWW is "you feel you were duped by a "player". "What happens if you cross paths with another "player"? If she answers I would not be sucked in by that again, I would make a better choice. Then she is essentially saying that she had 100% control the first time around. Maybe even that will be enough to ease your nagging concerns. Maybe you press that line of questioning further to explore whether she will concede her full responsibility.

If your comfortable with how affair proof your M is, then let it go and accept you are taking some risk.

Just my 2 cents

Hi BR and rprynne,

I'll try to respond to both of you in this reply, if I may.

BR, I believe you got the wrong impression from my latest reply. I was not trying to take back anything that I said. My W's refusal to see her entire part of this betrayal remains today and she ain't going to change that thinking. You have better luck trying to shoot and x-ray through a ten-foot lead wall.

Therein lies my frustration.This refusal and the fact that she was not able to come to me with the truth, leaves me very short of somehow, trusting her again. I've rebuilt a lot of trust, but it will always pale in comparison to the trust we so freely enjoyed prior to her betrayal( allegedly a ONS, BTW).

See how complete my trust is, I had to use the word "allegedly".

I am not "pulling back" anything said on this thread. I am simply trying to point out that she is now aware of her weaknesses. Hopefully, this will lead to a common boundary that she NEVER go out drinking alone with someone she considers a trusting friend from the opposite sex again. It is actually a boundary that was in place for a long time, but briefly changed. My wife attributes this to full-blown menopause, and hanging with people who had little or no moral compass. I believe, also, that she may be correct about some of that. When you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

I blindly trusted my W to always make the right decision concerning our M and faithfulness. After reading what Dr H says about that, I was totally mistaken in taking that position. It's precisely why I was so "blindsided" by my W's A. I want to make sure that never happens again, but will need my W's cooperation in that. I believe that NOW, that it is in place. Time will tell.

] Well I for one, would agree totally with that. It is exactly how Dr H explains the conundrum of how and A can happen in good marriages. Makes perfect sence to me.


I think my W has actually accepted many components of #2. It was clinging to the 80/20 split that was what I considered my last hurdle. I couldn't break that, and it seems I never will. Maybe it's the final frontier for my w to retain some sence of dignity and respect for herself.

I think, at this point, I should do as you have suggested and just let it go. Concentrate on the here and now, and the future. Perhaps this is what BR interpreted from me as a pulling back. I view it, in the final analysis, as acceptance.

All Blessings to all that responded to me.
Jerry

edited to add: I do believe acceptence is the final stage of forgiveness. I sure hope so.

Jerry...I am sorry for what you have gone through. I am shocked that after 5 years that you still do not have the facts regarding her affair. IMHO, and I am not trying to upset you here, YOU are the reason you do not have these details. You lowered the price of admission back into your life so much so that your wife has spent the last 5 years being abusive...yes, abusive..to you. Failing to at the very least be honest regarding the events that have so impacted your life is abuse. I recognize that you love your wife very much...but I believe that when we love someone so much that in spite of their continued abuse, we remain with them...I feel we leave love at the doorstep and are instead dealing with obsession. You could today go to your wife and tell her that your boundary for this relationship continuing if radical honesty...that without it, you would rather move on. I don't see that happening because you have allowed this love to become unhealthy, IMO.
I am sorry for what you have gone through and continue to go through today...only you can enforce some very reasonable boundaries in your life. Until that time, your wife has no incentive to change.

Be well,

MEDC

Thanks for thoughts MEDC,
You've made some valid points I would like to address.



See, MEDC, that's a problem b/c I don't really have any hard evidence to the contrary. It could very well be the "obsessiness" that you mentioned that is causeing me and me alone, to think that may be true.

so what does one do if that is a very real possiblity? Should I throw down the gauntlet, based on instinct that could be completely wrong?
What if my W has been 100% honest since Dday? My own obsessivenes could destroy a viable and repairable M, based on what, my own thoughts?

I am the one that was left out of the loop here. Do I start filling in the blanks with what could be completely erroneus info, based on some gut feeling? Where does one draw the line between reality and OCD THINKING?

Thanks again for your thoughts.

All Blessings,
Jerry