NIA,

In a word, no, I'm not buying it either. The difference here is that this man had already crossed a line with the woman. Every hotel I have been in had a peephole so you could see who was at your door.

Not only would I have not let the guy in, I wouldn't have even answered the door. Of course, I would have smacked the a-hole for kissing me and reported him to HR. But then that's just me.

The honest assessment here is that this guy would not have broken the door down. He was wrong for proceeding if she said stop at any point, but honestly, I don't think even her H is 100% sure that this IS a rape.

I work in Law enforcement too, and it is flaky. I think both of them realize this, which is why they never have reported it. That may not be right or fair, but frankly it is reality.

Who

Im not getting something here. This guy came to your wifes room and forced himself in?? And then forcefully removed her clothing and penetrated her?? Either that is rape, OR.....more than likely.....your wife is lying. She may have felt guilty after the intercourse started, but she sure didnt try very hard to keep her underpants on.

Im not trying to be insensitive or mean, but here is an example......My wife would have punched that guy in the nose and then in the crotch right before she called the police if he forced himself on her.

This is where Im confused as to why your wife let ALOT take place and then really did nothing but tell that guy to leave. Seems a bit odd to me.

Good luck.

Nia, I know your question was not directed at me...but i want to clear something up. I have doubts about the veracity of this story not because there was no broken door...but because of the other details shared by the poster. Add that up with his response and it would not surprise me to find out that this story is in fact, a story.
I suspect, as I said earlier that there is a lot more to this than has been told already. As it stands right now, it just doesn't add up....especially the H's reaction.
I could be worng on this...but my take is, she woke up to what she was doing and likely blamed him for what happened. I have seen it a lot and this story is textbook for a woman crying rape when in fact the act was consentual. Having regrets about what you do ...or allowed..the next day, does not constitute rape...yet, the charges are frequently brought in such cases.
IF...and I say IF... she allowed the man in her room, actively kissed him...allowed him to remove her clothes and enter her... a rape did not happen.

here's what we KNOW..
the woman was kissed. She told him this couldn't happen.

He comes to her hotel room LATER on and she lets him in.

He kisses her again. She is confused and goes back to the couch...not in the hall...did not ask him to leave...she sits on the couch. He comes over and kisses and touches her...removes her clothes, penetrates her. She THEN tells him NO.
Now, was she kissing HIM? Did she try and stop him in anyway?

Her quote...



DESPITE what happened sounds like "even though I led you on earlier" and WHEN was the last time people got permission for intercourse??? I FEEL you crossed the line...not you RAPED me.

I am sorry, but with my expeience, this just does not add up to a rape unless she said stop and stop before he entered her.

I agree 100%

I think there was some confusion on her part as to having an affair or not......she started the act, then changed her mind.

Gotta agree with Who and MEDC here,
This doesn't ring true at all. Actually it sounds eerrily like the story my W told me. Difference was it was his boat and not a hotel room.

Lie detector test would clear this up pretty quickly.

And for the record, what rapist would stop after reaching his intended destination, simply because he was asked to do so. Om's behavior, if believed, doesn't indicate he had any intention of stopping. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hang on, I think we're going to see the "80/20% split" here before too long.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Amazingly Jerry, that does work with a very few rapists...especially in date rape scenarios. One of the things that we educate people to do in a rape situation is to say.."stop raping me" or "don't rape me." For the small percentage of men that don't realize that their actions are rising to this level, this can be a very powerful tool.

Not to mention.

It appears when she did say "stop" more definitely.

He did.

(At least that's what I got from the story).

It's in that grey area of the law...they certainly didn't contractual, so to speak, consent to intercourse. But, it happened apparently consentually. When she said "NO", he stopped.

Doesn't make her FEEL less violated. The fact she told her husband seems to indicate she NEVER really wanted it to happen but like Nia, it's for some reason, not understood by us men, why a woman doesn't say "no" when she really doesn't want to have sex.

Wanting to say "no" versus saying "no"...BIG difference, legally. It can still be a rape and NOT a crime.

Mr. Wondering

caveat - I am NOT a criminal attorney.

Thanks MEDC,
As a layman in this area, I defer to your experience <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. It didn't sound right, expecially after forcing himself on Joe's W.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Hurt-By_Joe - how, exactly, did you find out about this occurrence? You said your wife wrote the email on the advice of a therapist and apparently the therapist is buying your wife's story - which again sounds strange because the story you posted sure sounds like rape to me, and what therapist would advise a rape victim to send an email to her attacker?

Had your wife ever mentioned this guy before? Has your wife ever behaved in ways with other men that left you uncomfortable or suspicious?

Frankly, that email sounds more like it was written for *you* to read, not the OM. It sounds like an explanation written by a woman who has gotten caught with another man and is trying to save her own skin (and marriage) by making it look like the other guy forced/pushed her into it.

We are asking so many questions because it is not unusual for a WW (wayward wife) to get physically involved with another man and then try to pass it off as some sort of date rape if/when she gets caught (or thinks she's about to get caught).

That's why so many of us really have our radar up for this one.

Again: How, exactly, did you find out about this? What made your wife decide to tell you?
Mulan

Medc, the forum is called General Questions under a primary heading of infidelity but it is very easy for a new poster to assume that any general marital questions should be posted here.

I asked of your qualifications because of the nature of your responses. They did not speak of years of extensive training. ***********Most major PDs have sex crime units. It is specialized for a reason, requires a steady temperament and months of training. Taking a report is not the same as handling a follow up investigation in any type of crime. You showed a stunning lack of understanding as to the complexity of these types of situations so yeah…. I question your veracity.

My qualifications include coming from a long line of law enforcement, including numerous relatives in special units, including Sex Crimes. The majority of our friends are currently employed detectives as well. Conversation around our house can get umm, interesting shall we say? I am also a sexual assault survivor. I have posted on several established survivor sites for many years. I have rarely (never?) come across aggressive responses such as yours to the spouse of a survivor.

HBJ, your wife’s story is almost identical to the event that happened to a loved one over 30 years ago. Because it was so long ago, she blamed herself entirely until years after the fact she understood the word rape. She froze too and it wasn’t until my own assault that I was able to understand the freeze effect. I used to think that you were supposed to fight and if you didn’t (for whatever reason) it was your fault it happened in the first place. Both I and my relative experienced lightening fast, completely unexpected attacks. Both were horrifying in the perpetrator’s casualness about it afterward.

The oddest thing is that trauma (any trauma actually) is so impossible for the mind to process while it is happening that the body may go numb. I remember my mind racing but not knowing how to react rationally. It’s one of those things that defies reason while it’s happening a lot like being in a car wreck. Let me elaborate, in acquaintance rape it is like being in a car wreck where you KNOW the driver and they’re driving nuts!

In my case, I eventually did try to fight out of a belated survival instinct but I didn’t stand a chance. Why was it belated? Confusion, comprehension, then absolute fear kicking in and it all takes time to process, I didn’t have time, didn’t know how to use it right then anyway, just trying not to get hurt, not to make him mad, to stay okay. But I wasn’t okay you know? I blamed myself for not fighting soon enough or hard enough for years after, go figure. Me fighting or not fighting doesn’t change what that man did to me, nor does it change what happened to your wife, HBJ. I have since learned that self blame is a common response and can be reinforced by societal blame which really is due mostly to ignorance. It’s an ignorance I hope most can keep…..no one should experience this firsthand.

One important thing I really want you to understand HBJ, is that being sexually assaulted makes no sense while it’s happening, let alone after the fact . That’s where speculative kibitzing hurts rather than helps and you seem to be experiencing a bit of it here, I’m sorry. It’s not a private forum, posters are not screened here.

On the upside, you did get some GREAT advice on pursuing the creep from Mr. W. Get as much of a paper/electronic trail as you can! There are several private forums geared for survivors, some do include support for the spouse. If you are interested in these I can give them to you. My heart goes out to you both….KB


P.S. Medc, just read your last post. "Stop raping me" is a pretty good thing to say but most women don't even contemplate the possiblity of rape in connection with men they know. It's the big scary stranger in an alley that conjures up rape fright. It is good to be prepared for any eventuality but the reality is that it's so hard to think rationally while being manhandled. I do like the intent but it has the possiblity of being used as another avenue of (self) flagellation for the victim if they didn't follow prescriped rape "protocol".

Knowbetter.........I understand what you are trying to say to a point.

Letting a man in your room that you told earlier in the day NO to, is NOT freezing. At least IMHO.

Hurt,

OK, because I have been here, in the halls of MB WAY TOO LONG, and have read such heartbreaking and horrible stories, this is what popped into my head....say your (Hurt's) W and OM were having an A for a while, and OM suddenly discovers that he has an STD from another GF or his WW!!!

Oh MY GOD...now what???

Well, darling H, while we at a out of town business meeting this oaf pushes the boundaries, kisses me, disrobes me and enters me for a couple strokes....and then I told him NO!! So then he stopped.

And Oh, by the way, and I just found out that I have an STD!!

Now again, playing the devil's advocate here Hurt, thinking of the worst scenario.

But why else does she reports the "crime" but wants to do nothing else about it?

It would be interesting to hear Joe's side of the story.

kirk

HBJ, can you just clarify the timeline on this?

How long ago did the incident happen?

How long after the incident did your wife tell you about it?

How long has she been in therapy? Just since the incident, or from before?

I'd also like to know if your wife is still working for the same company, and is likely to be exposed to this man on similar business trips.

TA

Something along the lines of the above MAY be a good topic for the third email I suggested you send to OM later this week. It should likely come from you without your wife's input or knowledge.

Again...you are begging for a response. Any response to get some of OM's side of the story to place some sort of explanation about what actually happened that day. At the very least, he will place himself IN her hotel room and deny the sex was non-consentual. With such email from him you will then be able to inform his wife with actual proof of, at the very least, infidelity.

Who knows what OM will say. The above fact pattern could be the truth. In the end, OM's wife needs to know and more facts may come out as a result. If your wife is reading here I wouldn't allow her to stop you from seeking the truth and documenting what you can. This is NOT a bygone's moment and not to be taken lightly.

Tread carefully.

Mr. Wondering

HBJ, your wife’s story is almost identical to the event that happened to a loved one over 30 years ago. Because it was so long ago, she blamed herself entirely until years after the fact she understood the word rape. She froze too and it wasn’t until my own assault that I was able to understand the freeze effect. I used to think that you were supposed to fight and if you didn’t (for whatever reason) it was your fault it happened in the first place. Both I and my relative experienced lightening fast, completely unexpected attacks. Both were horrifying in the perpetrator’s casualness about it afterward.
______________________

this type of incident happened to me before I was married ...i never considered it rape....i was WITH the guy. We were laying on a bed kissing etc....so, it must have been my fault that he thought i gave him the green light.

now, if i were married and invited the guy into my room.....i don't think I would have ever had the guts to call it rape...i would have felt ashamed and like i had it coming to me for being flirtatious and naive.

BUT, i can see how it could happen....even if i said no and even if i really did not want sex. I can see how it could have gotten to the point that HJJ's wife explained....It ALMOST happened to me.
So, what i would like to know is IF HJJ's wifes story is exactly what happened.....is it considered rape?
seems rape is pretty subjective on this forum.

__________________________________
SO...
Are YOU sayign that it can't be rape because she let him in the room?

IF it happened exactly the way she explained......are you saying she had it coming because she allowed him in the room?

I come from a long line of oncologists. Doesn't make me qualified to treat cancer.
I have a several friends that are mechanics...funny, I never learned how to rebuild a transmission.
As far as not seeing someone aggressive like me in the past... I am sorry to hear that. I am aggressive when it comes to abuse. And I am aggressive when I see a H show up wondering IF he he should do something about his wife being raped....
Frankly, I haven't run across that much.
I too am a sexual abuse survivor...and yes, our PD had a sex crimes unit. As with any wagon team, I worked closely with them on many occasions. Also, showing up at a rape scene involves a heck of a lot more than taking a report.



Edited to add...The MAIN reason I am agressive in questioning "questionable" cases is that it is these types of cases that have a negative impact on the ability of prosecutors to get convictions in real cases. Far too many rapists get away with their crimes and frankly, too many innocents are convicted. It is the same with domestic abuse. False claims take away credibility from the legitimate victims of these horrible crimes.

Nia, please don't go down this road and derail HBJ's thread. Nobody is saying that and that is NOT what this thread is about.

What we ARE saying is that this story is not clear and many of us suspect that there is more to this story than HBJ either knows or is willing to tell us.

When we can get more info, we can be of more help to HBJ.
Mulan

It seems as though there are at least three paths you can take: all of which involve letting the other man's wife know.

First path:

Assume whatever you want to assume (sexual assault, unprovable sexual assault, remorse after consensual sex) - inform the man's wife that he and your wife had sex. Her confirmation for that should be enough. Don't offer any details about whether it was consensual or forced since you don't intend to pursue charges and all that's likely to do is put her on the defensive and give her a good reason to question your story (if he brings it up as forcible, then that would be pretty telling). All you need is the time, date, place and that it happened.

His wife gets to decide whether she believes it or not.

Move on with your therapist and re-build your marriage based on your assumption. Heal the trauma and build in better boundaries for both you and your wife with regard to the opposite sex. If it was assault, I imagine she's going to be pretty cooperative in putting in place some very drastic changes to how she behaves around men.

Second path:

Assume you want to follow up in some way on the assault portion of the allegation. In that case, heed Mr W's great advice and try to get as much information as you can. Recognize that this is probably not a provable case and you are probably unlikely to win any legal cases (in my non-legal background, non-police experience, just general person) opinion.

Move on with your therapist and re-build your marriage based on your assumption. Heal the trauma and build in better boundaries for both you and your wife with regard to the opposite sex. If it was assault, I imagine she's going to be pretty cooperative in putting in place some very drastic changes to how she behaves around men.

Third path:

Like the first path, inform the man's wife that he and your wife had sex. Her confirmation for that should be enough. Don't offer any details about whether it was consensual or forced since you don't intend to pursue charges and all that's likely to do is put her on the defensive and give her a good reason to question your story (if he brings it up as forcible, then that would be pretty telling). All you need is the time, date, place and that it happened.

Try and figure out what the truth is either by asking your wife to take a lie detector test or by some other means (trying to get information from the OM). Snoop to ensure there is no further contact between the individuals unless it involves legal action. Consult (in private) with your therapist with your doubts and ask for his/her intervention at getting at the truth.

Like the first scenario, build in better boundaries for both you and your wife with regard to the opposite sex. Also figure out how well you have been meeting her EN's.

No matter which way you look at it, telling the OM's wife is the right thing to do. What you tell him may vary - but the real fact that she needs to know is: 1.) he has had sex with your wife (thus he is an unfaithful husband).

Mys

I'm sorry nia, I have not read your sitch, inspite of all the num of posts you've put out there.

from the above statement, does that mean you immediately went home and told your H what happened, or has that not happened? Just curious/

All Blessings,
Jerry