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It just puzzles me that posters will put the responsibility on the girl/woman to not not get herself into a certain position because a man might not understand when she says stop or no....but not on the boy/man to understand that.

Nia - How many times have you heard on this site, "You cannot control others. You can only control yourself."

YES the men should stop if and when a woman says No.

But YES *every woman* has the responsibility to PROTECT HERSELF and NOT blindly and naively put herself in situations where she could be harmed physically and/or emotionally.

We are talking to YOU here. That's why YOU are getting the advice of, "Protect YOURself. Look out for YOU."

Again - YES the men should stop if and when you say No.

But why are YOU putting all the responsibility for YOUR safety onto SOMEONE ELSE?

YOU are supposed to look out for YOU. You cannot hand over 100% of the responsibility for your physical and emotional wellbeing to someone else and then be hurt and angry and confused when they don't take that responsibility.

That's because the responsibility is at least as much YOURS as it is theirs.

Should someone break into your house and steal your stuff? No, of course not.

If you carelessly leave the door unlocked, does that make it okay for them to walk in and take your stuff? No, of course not.

BUT you owe it to yourself to understand that not everyone is honest and trustworthy and that YOU HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY to protect your property by locking the doors and otherwise looking out for what is yours.

Refusing to do this and simply expecting other people to protect you and look out for you, and then being shocked and angry and hurt when they don't, is the height of immaturity and irresponsibility.

You can bet I taught my daughter this and you can bet I will teach my granddaughters the same.

I hope I have not been too hard on you but if you do not step up and take responsibility for PROTECTING YOURSELF instead of meekly leaving that to other people - I think you will continue to find the world a confusing and frightening place.

Again - YOU cannot control what any man might or might not do.

You CAN control what sort of situation you place YOURSELF in.

If you have foolishly and naively placed yourself in sexual situations when you did not intend to have sex, I hope you will not do so in the future. Not because any woman "deserves it" if things do go too far, but because it is up to YOU to protect YOU and up to YOU to decide AHEAD OF TIME how far you want things to go.

It is NOT the responsibility of the man you are with to read your mind and try to figure that out for you.

It is very, very unfair and immature for you to place responsibility for YOUR safety and wellbeing on somebody else.

I think you did place yourself in foolish and riskly situations in the past and are desperately hoping to find some way to make that not your fault - and Nia, from what you have posted you have behaved very naively and I wish someone had taught you better.

But please don't worry about that now. Many women do stupid things just like what you have described. What matters is Learn From It and Do Not Do Such Things Again!

So please stop trying to somehow make it okay. It was not okay for you to do what you did because it was not safe for YOU. Look at the pain it continues to cause you to this day. THAT is why we want you to learn to protect yourself instead of putting that responsibility entirely on the man you are with and just hoping he'll take care of you.

What you did was just like leaving your house unguarded with the front door sitting open while you go off for a week's vacation. No, it's not okay for someone to come in and steal stuff, but YOU had the power to lock the door and set the alarm and ask the cops to watch the house. Instead, you just said, "Well, people shouldn't steal, so I shouldn't have to lock my house!"

You can't control what someone else might do, but you sure can control what YOU do. That means YOU protect what is YOURS.

Real Women Take Responsibilty for Protecting Themselves.
Mulan


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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And please, for god's sake - nobody is saying "women deserve to get raped if they get the least bit sexual with a man."

If you come back with that, you are NOT understanding what I am trying to tell you or what anybody else here is saying, either.

I am saying that not all men are nice.

I am saying that not all men are smart.

I am saying that not all men are going to understand that you aren't just putting up a little token resistance if you draw back during a make-out session.

I am saying that it is very, very foolish for any woman to put herself in a sexual situation when she does not want to have sex AND she is not 100% certain that the man she is with understands that and is okay with it.

You cannot control what other people do. That's why YOU must control YOU and what YOU do. That's why YOU must take steps to protect YOU and NOT leave that up to somebody else.

If you do not understand that, then I really don't know what else to say to you.
Mulan


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I agree with Mulan here - she is dead right.


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
D-Day August 2005
Married 11/1982 3 Sons 27,25,23
Empty Nesters.
Fully Recovered.
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But why are YOU putting all the responsibility for YOUR safety onto SOMEONE ELSE?
___________________

I' NOT.
I"m not putting ANY responsibility for my safety on anyone else.
you must have completely misunderstood.



YOU are supposed to look out for YOU. You cannot hand over 100% of the responsibility for your physical and emotional wellbeing to someone else and then be hurt and angry and confused when they don't take that responsibility.

_______________

I agree w/ this 100%

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And please, for god's sake - nobody is saying "women deserve to get raped if they get the least bit sexual with a man."

If you come back with that, you are NOT understanding what I am trying to tell you or what anybody else here is saying, either.

I am saying that not all men are nice.

I am saying that not all men are smart.

I am saying that not all men are going to understand that you aren't just putting up a little token resistance if you draw back during a make-out session.

I am saying that it is very, very foolish for any woman to put herself in a sexual situation when she does not want to have sex AND she is not 100% certain that the man she is with understands that and is okay with it.

You cannot control what other people do. That's why YOU must control YOU and what YOU do. That's why YOU must take steps to protect YOU and NOT leave that up to somebody else.

If you do not understand that, then I really don't know what else to say to you.
Mulan

_________________

I think i understand exactly what you are saying and i agree with you.

I was just trying to talk about it Mulan....and i didn't agree w/ the way a couple of the posters SEEMED (to me) to be placing MORE responsibility ON the females. That's basically it.

My son will be going away to college next year.I want to make darn sure that he understands it's his responsiblity to understand what consenual sex IS and isn't.........I want him to understand the word NO and STOP...even if they happen to be on a bed in her dorm room.

Last edited by nia17; 09/19/07 07:09 PM.
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You can bet I taught my daughter this and you can bet I will teach my granddaughters the same.

I hope I have not been too hard on you but if you do not step up and take responsibility for PROTECTING YOURSELF instead of meekly leaving that to other people - I think you will continue to find the world a confusing and frightening place.
__________________

Believe me...I have taught my daughter the same thing.....amd my son too.

You have not been too harsh but you don't seem to understand where I am coming from.
you have made some very wrong assumptions about what you think I believe here but I suppose that's just a difference in communication styles.

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Nia..several thoughts here.

One....you sound like a militant feminist with an ax to grind against men. Sorry...but that is how you come across.

Second..if a woman SAYS no and continues to act in a provocative manner...her actions are speaking louder than her words. It is hard for NO to be taken seriously as she lays there participating in an event. When I was married my wife might ask me if I wanted sex...I might have said NO on a given night and she would proceed and try and change my mind. In your way of thinking ...I was raped by her. Your thinking is just not grounded in reality. NO does not always mean NO...sorry...but maybe it isn't politically correct to say so...but I guarantee you that if every person that was told NO and then convinced a person to do otherwise were thrown in jail...traffic jams would be a thing of the past.
So...if a woman doesn't want to have intercourse...she should clearly state that. saying no and continuing with the festivities is IMO a far cry from rape. Inviting a man into your hotel room does not warrant being raped...inviting a man into your hotel room that kissed you earlier and then allowing him to kiss and touch you...enter you and NOT say the words NO or STOP AND taking action to make it stop is not rape...and no prosecutor or jury would convict given those facts.
Now...if she invited him in and he forced himself on her...which the facts given do not support...then it is clearly rape.
so...given your criteria Nia...simply..was I raped by my ex wife since I never gave her permission to have intercourse with me after my "no."

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Nia..several thoughts here.

One....you sound like a militant feminist with an ax to grind against men. Sorry...but that is how you come across.
_______________

OH NO...then I am coming off all wrong because I am not that way at all.

I don't think I was coming off that way to Mulan.....she described me as scared and confused person who wants others to take responsibility to me.......and i am not that way either.

So....I obviously have been coming off wrong...or atleast not the way i want to.


truth is....I did personalize the situation and i was trying top work thru some pretty personal feelings on this thread.

sorry to he orig. poster but he seems to be long gone.
_______________________________________________
_________________________________________________

inviting a man into your hotel room that kissed you earlier and then allowing him to kiss and touch you...enter you and NOT say the words NO or STOP AND taking action to make it stop is not rape...and no prosecutor or jury would convict given those facts.
Now...if she invited him in and he forced himself on her...which the facts given do not support...then it is clearly rape.
___________________

IF you are referring to the orig. posters wife....I agree w/ you....and i don't think we got the whole story. (just like you mentioned earlier in the thread)




____________________________________________________________

so...given your criteria Nia...simply..was I raped by my ex wife since I never gave her permission to have intercourse with me after my "no."
______________________-

I am not so sure what you mean by "my Criteria"......again, if we are only discussing the posters wife...I thought her story sounded very odd and didn't give an opinion on what i thought there. Except IF it was the whole truth, it sounded like a date rape.

did your wife manage to have intercourse w/ you w/o your participation?
That seems pretty difficult to me....and i wasn't trying to say what you seem to think i was by that analogy.

Let me try again..

There were several posters who sounded (to me) like they place more responsibility on a woman to not put herself in a sexual situation than a man to understand what No and Stop mean....and yes....if she is saying no and stop and still groping at him then that is wrong of her.

Like I said...i personalized this too much....Maybe that is how i became so unclear to you and others.

in MY situation I said NO and Stop after the guy took certain liberties that crossed a line....then he sat on arms and did his thing.
I had been on several dates w/ him and nothing like this ever happened...I had no reason to suspect he would do something like that. he was a friend of many people I knew and nobody ever mentioned that side of him.

I blamed myself for that for a long time.... I learned from it too......I am not trying to shuck off responsibility for anything......
and when Weaver mentioned her teen-agers...i mentioned i had been thinking about mine too...... I don't want my son taking advantage of a girl just because he assumes she must want sex......I want him to take the responsibility to be VERY clear about that.
JUst as clear as I want my D to be on her responsibility and boundaries and how to defend them

Last edited by nia17; 09/19/07 08:23 PM.
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Nia, no apologies needed to me... I get taken wrong all the time.
IMO, the original poster...and this is speculation on my part...is most likely processing some "additional" information he has been given.
Hopefully i there are facts that would actually support a rape charge...some that were obviously left out..the scum bag gets charged.
Most likely though...unless there is a missing bombshell this will amount to two people being where they shouldn't and doing things they shouldn't be doing... and regrets take over. I hope this is the case as I would rather have her deal with the guilt of an infidelity than the trauma of being raped.

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Nia, no apologies needed to me... I get taken wrong all the time.

_________________________

I see that w/ you.
often I think i must be reading you wrong because what you said seems different than the conviction i have come to expect from you.
You are much better at stating conviction than i am....I just sort of ramble..try to have a debate or conversation about it and often people don't pick up on that.
Sorry for the confusion...MY bad....I took the opportunity to try to discuss the topic instead of just sticking to what the orig. poster asked.
I should have started a new thread.

Last edited by nia17; 09/19/07 08:31 PM.
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